Picked up bad habits in IDPA/USPSA? - Page 2

softmentor · February 9, 2008, 02:39 PM

Interesting topic. I have thought about it before but never really talked it through with anyone. I have been shooting handguns for about 1 1/2 years and started IPSA a year ago. Started shooting so I could work armed (private security) And at the start, let me say I appreciate those of you who are polite and don't take things personal and don't argue, but discuss, listen, learn and share their questions, ideas and experience in a professional and gentlemanly fashion.
From what I have learned of self defense, there are 2 basic situations where I would have to consider using my gun. 1. those where the situation happens fast, most likely with someone drawing a weapon and attacking. 2. something like a home invasion. IPSA is not exactly like either of these, as far as I can see. In the first, IPSA requires that you stand in a box, not move, and from what I have learned moving, and especially moving toward good cover, is an important part of staying alive. In the second, IPSA has no tactical sense of home invasion or room clearing and what to do. And of course, in both cases, IPSA targets don't move or shoot back as already stated.
So, I think this is a great question. Perhaps restated, IPSA habits may not be bad habits, they just lack some of the skills needed for real self defense. Clearly only learning, training and practicing IPSA would leave a person poorly equipped to handle a real SD situation. Yes, I have become much more competent with the basic mechanics of carrying, handling, and firing my gun at IPSA. I shoot IPSA with my duty gear just for that reason. But I still continue to learn about tactics and self defense through other training. So, I will continue to read this thread with interest. Thanks again to those of you who share from real experience and the gathered wisdom and are kind enough to share that with those of us who want to learn.

Sigma 40 Blaster · February 10, 2008, 02:55 AM

I remember a while back I posted a question about the rivalary between IPSC and IDPA clubs...each thinks they are superior to the other (IPSC is more fun, IDPA is more "tactical").

I think this thread is pretty indicative that there is a real difference between the two organizations and that each has their own purpose for existence. Both are fun.

I think I'll side with the LE and military (former or current duty) opinions as to what purpose each club serves.

jmorris · February 10, 2008, 11:32 AM

If you think shooting in general or practicing draws, sight acquisition, trigger control, target to target transition, reloads, shooting on the move and safe gun handling are bad habits, you shouldn’t shoot either game. Will you learn sound tactics? No, games that involve a timer rarely provide that.

WESHOOT2 · February 10, 2008, 12:13 PM

I suggest the rules in IDPA trend towards enforcing 'good' habits, like finding cover, maintaining ammunition control, and target engagement awareness.
Not 'bad'.

Not for every circumstance, either, but the still-sad truth is most of us do exactly as we've trained or practiced, so......

Don't believe it of yourselves? Suggest trying a 'match' using your opposite hand.
(I did / have, and I acted retarded. Juuuust barely better than 'dangerous', but no one witnessing argued about 'retarded').

FWIW, I no longer shoot IDPA; was learnin' too many bad habits LOL.
A33102

nate45 · February 10, 2008, 12:56 PM

All martial arts training is a game. When the military trains in the field it's called war games.

No one is actually in mortal danger, at least from enemy action.

I'll admit that over the years IPSC got farther and farther from practical, hence the return to single stack street type matches.

In 'real' life if someone good wants to kill you there is not much you can do about it, outside of having 24 hr armed protection.

For an individual who may confront a deadly situation such as an armed robber or lunatic, ect, the most important skill to have(after being able to avoid trouble in the first place) is to rapidly put their self defense method into action.

If that method is a pistol you must be able to draw and shoot your attacker before he shoots, stabs or hits you.

Skills in seeking concealment or engaging in running gun battles with multipile armed assailants will hopefully be of a secondary nature. When compared with rapidly deploying and firing your weapon.

Lurper · February 10, 2008, 04:50 PM

Quote:

I'll admit that over the years IPSC got farther and farther from practical, hence the return to single stack street type matches.

True in the sense of 30+ round assault courses. But too many people want to focus on the equipment. The skills learned apply to any pistol with any equipment. Rob has proven that again and again. He is tough to beat whether in single stack or open division. I have done demos with a .454 Ruger Alaskan shooting 2 "A's" with .2 splits at 7 yards. It aint the equipment. I always have to shake my head when some people want to claim that the skills learned don't translate to the "real" world. More SF, NavSpecWar, SOCMEU and L.E. guys have been trained by 5 of the top shooters I can think of. If the skills don't translate, why do these organizations still seek them out for training?

Quote:

For an individual who may confront a deadly situation such as an armed robber or lunatic, ect, the most important skill to have(after being able to avoid trouble in the first place) is to rapidly put their self defense method into action.

That's it precisely, yet so many people want to tell us otherwise. The single most important skill to develop with a firearm is the ability to hit your target quickly (and often). Everything else takes a back seat.

Quote:

. . . trend towards enforcing 'good' habits, like finding cover, maintaining ammunition control, and target engagement awareness.

Those are bad habits. Do the research yourself. In the vast majority of civilian encounters, cover makes no difference (it is either not available or the situation unfolds so fast that it isn't accessible). Neither does ammunition control (again most don't involve enough rounds to require a reload) and a reload with retention is uneccessary (as I pointed out earlier, I don't think you will find a civilian shooting where it played a role in the outcome), overly complex (in that it is very difficut to fire the round in the chamber while performing one), trains you to think about what to do with the partial magazine when you should be focusing on shooting (think about "Newhall"). Assessing the threat should happen before the shooting starts if there is time - not during - and in the situations that unfold too quickly, just shoot. The best, most effective thing to do when it's time to shoot is shoot. Nothing else.
Those are the skills that IPSC (and to a lesser degree IDPA) develops. The skills it doesn't develop are pre and post engagement skills. But, that is a totally different arena and one that can be trained for off of the range.

Sorcerer · February 12, 2008, 09:20 PM

I just started sooting IDPA 4 months ago. Took my permit to carry and receaved my permit 6 months ago. Been shooting off the bench for over 25 years. Bad habit in IDPA is, if it does not have a set of hands or lines on it, it gets shot. When the S.H.T.F. what ever training you have done is most likely what you will revert to. That could set you up for a murder charge.

RickB · February 12, 2008, 11:02 PM

That's long been a shortcoming of using competition as training, or sometimes, using training as training; every time you draw your gun, something gets shot. Now, we are taught that it's not nice to brandish, and we don't go for our gun until it's actually time to shoot, but really, I think I'd rather have my gun out when things go sideways, and THEN make the decision to shoot, or not. IDPA used to feature more designating of threat targets, such as knives or guns stenciled on, to signify levels of threat. It got sort of silly, with MDs declaring that a knife at ten yards is more dangerous than a gun at twelve yards, or a tomahawk is a greater threat than a hatchet, etc., so IDPA suggests that no such subjective asignments be made, but what I discovered about stenciling threat indicators on targets is that it made me skip targets that had any black paint indicators on them. I'd become so conditioned to bypass targets with black markings, that I'd skip past threat targets, too. A guy in a tan jacket and black gloves; threat, or not?

WESHOOT2 · February 13, 2008, 09:17 AM

"Good habits" for the LE types that seem to inhabit the IDPA circles I'm aware of...........

I have found, as a civilian, a loud voice, a fast draw, and a big shiny gun alleviated any need for banging away.
I don't feel the need for many 'tactics'.

So far; I remain optimistic (up here in sunny Vermont that's not so hard to do....)

A33102

FM12 · February 13, 2008, 01:02 PM

Sorcerer and RickB have hit the nail right on thee head...when was the last time you ran a course at one of these games and DIDNT shoot?

Maybe its not the games fault, maybe need a different application, usually known in LE circles as "shoot-don't shoot" drills...

I guess if you join a league or group of shooters, expect to shoot!

OK, I'm off to find a different game or another approach.

Thanks to all who have contributed here. It's been very informational and enlightening. FM12

RickB · February 13, 2008, 06:20 PM

Don't stop playing the games, just keep them in the proper perspective.

FM12 · February 14, 2008, 08:11 AM

Thanks, RickB. I needed that!

Any trigger time should be GOOD time!

February 9, 2008, 02:39 PM	#26
softmentor Senior Member Join Date: January 10, 2007 Posts: 233	Interesting topic. I have thought about it before but never really talked it through with anyone. I have been shooting handguns for about 1 1/2 years and started IPSA a year ago. Started shooting so I could work armed (private security) And at the start, let me say I appreciate those of you who are polite and don't take things personal and don't argue, but discuss, listen, learn and share their questions, ideas and experience in a professional and gentlemanly fashion. From what I have learned of self defense, there are 2 basic situations where I would have to consider using my gun. 1. those where the situation happens fast, most likely with someone drawing a weapon and attacking. 2. something like a home invasion. IPSA is not exactly like either of these, as far as I can see. In the first, IPSA requires that you stand in a box, not move, and from what I have learned moving, and especially moving toward good cover, is an important part of staying alive. In the second, IPSA has no tactical sense of home invasion or room clearing and what to do. And of course, in both cases, IPSA targets don't move or shoot back as already stated. So, I think this is a great question. Perhaps restated, IPSA habits may not be bad habits, they just lack some of the skills needed for real self defense. Clearly only learning, training and practicing IPSA would leave a person poorly equipped to handle a real SD situation. Yes, I have become much more competent with the basic mechanics of carrying, handling, and firing my gun at IPSA. I shoot IPSA with my duty gear just for that reason. But I still continue to learn about tactics and self defense through other training. So, I will continue to read this thread with interest. Thanks again to those of you who share from real experience and the gathered wisdom and are kind enough to share that with those of us who want to learn. __________________ Way HK kinda' guy.

February 10, 2008, 12:13 PM	#29
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	rules I suggest the rules in IDPA trend towards enforcing 'good' habits, like finding cover, maintaining ammunition control, and target engagement awareness. Not 'bad'. Not for every circumstance, either, but the still-sad truth is most of us do exactly as we've trained or practiced, so...... Don't believe it of yourselves? Suggest trying a 'match' using your opposite hand. (I did / have, and I acted retarded. Juuuust barely better than 'dangerous', but no one witnessing argued about 'retarded'). FWIW, I no longer shoot IDPA; was learnin' too many bad habits LOL. A33102 __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

February 10, 2008, 12:56 PM	#30
nate45 Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2007 Location: Illinois Posts: 3,746	All martial arts training is a game. When the military trains in the field it's called war games. No one is actually in mortal danger, at least from enemy action. I'll admit that over the years IPSC got farther and farther from practical, hence the return to single stack street type matches. In 'real' life if someone good wants to kill you there is not much you can do about it, outside of having 24 hr armed protection. For an individual who may confront a deadly situation such as an armed robber or lunatic, ect, the most important skill to have(after being able to avoid trouble in the first place) is to rapidly put their self defense method into action. If that method is a pistol you must be able to draw and shoot your attacker before he shoots, stabs or hits you. Skills in seeking concealment or engaging in running gun battles with multipile armed assailants will hopefully be of a secondary nature. When compared with rapidly deploying and firing your weapon. __________________ "No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms."- Thomas Jefferson ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ (>_<)

February 13, 2008, 09:17 AM	#34
WESHOOT2 Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 1999 Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country) Posts: 14,324	Lurper, have we met? "Good habits" for the LE types that seem to inhabit the IDPA circles I'm aware of........... I have found, as a civilian, a loud voice, a fast draw, and a big shiny gun alleviated any need for banging away. I don't feel the need for many 'tactics'. So far; I remain optimistic (up here in sunny Vermont that's not so hard to do....) A33102 __________________ . "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo"

February 10, 2008, 02:55 AM	#27
Sigma 40 Blaster Senior Member Join Date: July 1, 2007 Location: East Texas Posts: 997	I remember a while back I posted a question about the rivalary between IPSC and IDPA clubs...each thinks they are superior to the other (IPSC is more fun, IDPA is more "tactical"). I think this thread is pretty indicative that there is a real difference between the two organizations and that each has their own purpose for existence. Both are fun. I think I'll side with the LE and military (former or current duty) opinions as to what purpose each club serves.

February 10, 2008, 11:32 AM	#28
jmorris Senior Member Join Date: November 22, 2006 Posts: 3,077	If you think shooting in general or practicing draws, sight acquisition, trigger control, target to target transition, reloads, shooting on the move and safe gun handling are bad habits, you shouldn’t shoot either game. Will you learn sound tactics? No, games that involve a timer rarely provide that.

February 12, 2008, 09:20 PM	#32
Sorcerer Junior Member Join Date: February 12, 2008 Posts: 7	I just started sooting IDPA 4 months ago. Took my permit to carry and receaved my permit 6 months ago. Been shooting off the bench for over 25 years. Bad habit in IDPA is, if it does not have a set of hands or lines on it, it gets shot. When the S.H.T.F. what ever training you have done is most likely what you will revert to. That could set you up for a murder charge.

February 12, 2008, 11:02 PM	#33
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	That's long been a shortcoming of using competition as training, or sometimes, using training as training; every time you draw your gun, something gets shot. Now, we are taught that it's not nice to brandish, and we don't go for our gun until it's actually time to shoot, but really, I think I'd rather have my gun out when things go sideways, and THEN make the decision to shoot, or not. IDPA used to feature more designating of threat targets, such as knives or guns stenciled on, to signify levels of threat. It got sort of silly, with MDs declaring that a knife at ten yards is more dangerous than a gun at twelve yards, or a tomahawk is a greater threat than a hatchet, etc., so IDPA suggests that no such subjective asignments be made, but what I discovered about stenciling threat indicators on targets is that it made me skip targets that had any black paint indicators on them. I'd become so conditioned to bypass targets with black markings, that I'd skip past threat targets, too. A guy in a tan jacket and black gloves; threat, or not?

February 13, 2008, 01:02 PM	#35
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Sorcerer and RickB have hit the nail right on thee head...when was the last time you ran a course at one of these games and DIDNT shoot? Maybe its not the games fault, maybe need a different application, usually known in LE circles as "shoot-don't shoot" drills... I guess if you join a league or group of shooters, expect to shoot! OK, I'm off to find a different game or another approach. Thanks to all who have contributed here. It's been very informational and enlightening. FM12

February 13, 2008, 06:20 PM	#36
RickB Senior Member Join Date: March 1, 2000 Location: Boise, ID Posts: 8,518	Don't stop playing the games, just keep them in the proper perspective.

February 14, 2008, 08:11 AM	#37
FM12 Senior Member Join Date: February 5, 2007 Location: Monroeville, Alabama Posts: 1,683	Thanks, RickB. I needed that! Any trigger time should be GOOD time!