.410? - Page 2

Todd1700 · January 28, 2012, 05:47 AM

A 410 would be fine for squirrel and if that's what I already had I'd use it for that. As a weapon for deer I wouldn't go that route. And I speak as someone who killed my first deer as a child with a 410. A doe, but I shot her at a whopping 20 yards and she still ran a helluva ways. It's just pretty weak for deer.

Also as others have said already many stores carry a very limited selection of 410 shells if they have any at all. And they are pricey little suckers in stores around here too. Yeah you can order a box online but I personally hate ordering things online where the shipping costs as much or more than the thing you are ordering.

I'd get at least a 20 gauge. Some manufacturer (mossberg maybe) actually sells a combo model shotgun that comes with a smoothbore barrel and a rifled barrel for slugs.

msnden · January 28, 2012, 08:59 AM

Quote:

The 410 is most certainly a shotgun, even though it does not use the usual gauge designation. That's not what determines a shotgun, it's more important that it's a smoothbore

I am not sure if it is the smoothbore what determines if it is a shotgun or not. I have shot guns with both rifled & smooth barrels, I have rifles that shoot "shot"
(bird shot). Shotguns as a rule are designated buy there gauger, 12, 20,16, 28, etc, the 410 is described by its bore. as are other rifles 30/06, .308. .270 etc.
You may well be correct!, But I think the .410 is an anomaly in the gun world and the owner can call it whatever they choose. (I know what I would call it & it would not be either) msn

natman · January 29, 2012, 11:15 AM

I'll go so far as to agree that the 410 name does not match the usual convention for shotgun names.

However, trying to argue that a 410 is not a shotgun is too silly for words. Other than the name, please cite one way in which a 410 is fundamentally different than a 12 gauge.

Art Eatman · January 29, 2012, 11:36 AM

"...please cite one way in which a 410 is fundamentally different than a 12 gauge."

"There ain't ary."

I saw a 9mm shotgun in the Roy Acuff collection on display at Opryland. European-made. I'm not quite sure as to an appropriate use...

natman · January 29, 2012, 02:42 PM

Quote:

"...please cite one way in which a 410 is fundamentally different than a 12 gauge."

"There ain't ary."

Precisely.

Quote:

I saw a 9mm shotgun in the Roy Acuff collection on display at Opryland. European-made. I'm not quite sure as to an appropriate use...

Garden guns, for shooting rabbits, starlings and similar pests at very short range. I've seen 9mm rimfire bolt action smoothbores from Winchester (made long ago) and Anschutz (made recently). Fiocchi still makes ammo in shot sizes from 6 to 9.

I once almost bought a Bernadelli 9mm semiauto shotgun, but the deal fell through.

msnden · January 29, 2012, 02:51 PM

Quote:

I'll go so far as to agree that the 410 name does not match the usual convention for shotgun names.

However, trying to argue that a 410 is not a shotgun is too silly for words. Other than the name, please cite one way in which a 410 is fundamentally different than a 12 gauge

You are absolutely right! I stand corrected, msn

fast-eddie · February 1, 2012, 12:22 AM

If I were in your shoes it would a perfect excuse to get one of these sweeties.

http://www.cabelas.com/pump-lever-ac...hotgun-3.shtml

I bet clays would be pretty fun with a lever gun.

Gunplummer · February 1, 2012, 07:36 AM

I live in Pennsylvania and for a long time a .410 was not classified as a shotgun. They are now legal in shotgun (Special Regulations) areas, but were not for years because they are measured as a caliber. Many people thought that the .410 was not legal in the whole state but that is not true. I guess if a revolver and .45 caliber muzzle loader is good enough, a .410 would be O.K. for deer, although I have never used one on a deer. To listen to some people, a 12 gauge smooth bore is no longer adequate. Think about this: If a 20 gauge has a rifled bore, is it still a shotgun? I have seen Ithaca boys rifles with .22 smooth bore barrels for rat shot. What are they called?
We are drifting here. I used a .410 for years with #5 shot for squirrels. I had to special order a case to get #5 shot from Federal. Less pellets when you skin them. You can carry a whole box around with you, but they are really not cheaper than 12 gauge shells.

Sport45 · February 1, 2012, 09:00 AM

Quote:

I live in Pennsylvania and for a long time a .410 was not classified as a shotgun.

Was it not a shotgun, or not a legal firearm for hunting?

Gunplummer · February 1, 2012, 09:19 AM

Not a shotgun. Only legal in rifle areas until the law changed about 3 years ago.

Keg · February 1, 2012, 06:31 PM

I looked at the Pennsylvania gun laws since 2006...I could not find anything saying a 410 was not a shotgun or could not be used.....Anyone have any proof?

SHR970 · February 1, 2012, 06:39 PM

If pennsylvania had that law on the books, it certainly did not agree with BATFE's definition. IF you cut one down under 18" w/o a O.D.D. registration you get into a heap O'trouble. Rifles you can go down to 16" before that kicks in. I think I'll go with the .fed definition.

You don't have to agree with me but if you roll the dice you take your chances.

Now I would believe that the state had a minumum power floor codified that the 410 didn't meet.

Gunplummer · February 2, 2012, 09:29 AM

Legal for deer in a rifle area, not legal for deer in a shotgun only area. State law, what more do you need? When Pa. started special regulations areas (Shotgun only) that was the law. It may have been more than 3 years since it changed, time flies. I had no idea they made baiting deer illegal again in Spec Regs areas. I really don't keep up on the book and don't bait anyway. The .410 law change may go back more than 3 years. The original debate was "When is a .410 not considered a shotgun?". There you have it. The Pennsylvania State Game Commission did not consider it a shotgun. Other states do have a power limit on shotguns, but in Pa. it was legal in a rifle area as far back as I can remember.

Sport45 · February 2, 2012, 09:58 AM

I get it.

Shotguns are legal for hunting in shotgun areas.

.410's are not legal for hunting in shotgun areas.

Therefore; .410's are not shotguns.

bk688 · February 2, 2012, 10:39 AM

So I took my uncles old single shot .410 to the range this past week. It held about 4 inches at 50 yards with slugs (winchester super-x). I can only assume that with a rifled bore (which the circuit judge has) it would be more accurate, although that still puts it in the vitals of a deer at that distance.

At 25 yards with #6 it made a nice pattern although there was a good point above about the judge donuting the pattern. I wonder what effect this might have while squirrel hunting.

I may end up buying a single shot .410, Although fast-eddie's lever-action was a nice temptation. A single shot would be a good thing to give to the kid for her first squirrel hunt (5 more years). Still may buy the circuit judge, especially if they do end up making pistol caliber cartridges legal in rifles in Illinois. Plus, Art Eatman, I kinda like that silly look it has.

Buzzcook · February 2, 2012, 01:28 PM

Gauge and bore are synonymous. While it may be more usual to use gauge for shotguns and bore for rifles, they both mean the same thing, the number of pellets of the muzzle size needed to make a pound.

SHR970 · February 2, 2012, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Gunplummer wrote: Legal for deer in a rifle area, not legal for deer in a shotgun only area. State law, what more do you need? When Pa. started special regulations areas (Shotgun only) that was the law.

That is not the same as saying a 410 is not a shotgun. It is saying that a 410 is not legal to use in a shotgun only area for deer. I would be willing to bet where the game laws concerning hunting birds were concerned, the 410 was legal where shot size or method of take was regulated.

State law can not call a 410 a rifle while the fed. calls it a shotgun. You don't have to believe me but you can consult an attorney that is knowledgeable in federal regulations if you wish to confirm. What the state can do is say you can't use it for a specific application. Much like many states banning any and all .22 or under calibers for deer hunting.

Here in Cali. the law for deer hunting with a shotgun specifies the use of 00Buck, 000Buck, or slug. The game laws also specify that no gauge larger than 10 may be used. I have the following options with common factory ammo:
10Ga. 00, 000, slug
12Ga. 00, 000, slug
16Ga. slug
20Ga. slug
28Ga. S.O.L.
410 Bore 00, 000, slug.

Yes, if I want to I can hunt Mule Deer with a 410. Doesn't make it right but I can do it.

Gunplummer · February 2, 2012, 10:23 PM

There you have it. ".410 bore and slug" I strongly suspect that a .50 cal. smooth bore musket would have been illegal also. The designation "bore" was enough to make it illegal at the time. Enough nonsense, they changed the law anyway.

sc928porsche · February 4, 2012, 02:04 AM

Small shot does not travel far. You may have a total of 3/4 of an ounce of shot, but the individual shot of 7 1/2 does not carry very far. The .410 is quite effective on squirrels and rabbits. It is also effective on game birds although using the .410 for them is quite challenging.

rickyrick · February 4, 2012, 06:43 PM

When 410 shot bounces of of a piece of plywood, it really stings the lips.

chewie146 · February 10, 2012, 10:14 AM

I always used a 12 gauge on squirrels unless all I had with me was my .22 pistol. Use a smaller shot, and you'll do fine. The circuit judge is an interesting gun, but really a toy. If you got really close, it would probably work. From what I've read, the smaller the shot size, the more prone to the doughnut pattern they are. 12 gauge and 20 gauge are much cheaper for the small game loads, and the slugs pack much more punch for deer. If you do decide on the circuit judge or judge pistol, be forewarned that in NM, shotgun is only a weapon that is designed to be fired from the shoulder (for the purposes of hunting.) That means I cannot use my pistol gripped shotgun under state law for hunting squirrels. At least, that's how I interpret the law. You'd have to do a lot of product testing with that gun to see what shells pattern acceptably and at what range.

February 1, 2012, 12:22 AM	#32
fast-eddie Senior Member Join Date: March 10, 2009 Location: Tigard Or, Posts: 342	410 If I were in your shoes it would a perfect excuse to get one of these sweeties. http://www.cabelas.com/pump-lever-ac...hotgun-3.shtml I bet clays would be pretty fun with a lever gun.

February 1, 2012, 07:36 AM	#33
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	I live in Pennsylvania and for a long time a .410 was not classified as a shotgun. They are now legal in shotgun (Special Regulations) areas, but were not for years because they are measured as a caliber. Many people thought that the .410 was not legal in the whole state but that is not true. I guess if a revolver and .45 caliber muzzle loader is good enough, a .410 would be O.K. for deer, although I have never used one on a deer. To listen to some people, a 12 gauge smooth bore is no longer adequate. Think about this: If a 20 gauge has a rifled bore, is it still a shotgun? I have seen Ithaca boys rifles with .22 smooth bore barrels for rat shot. What are they called? We are drifting here. I used a .410 for years with #5 shot for squirrels. I had to special order a case to get #5 shot from Federal. Less pellets when you skin them. You can carry a whole box around with you, but they are really not cheaper than 12 gauge shells. Last edited by Gunplummer; February 1, 2012 at 07:48 AM.

February 1, 2012, 06:31 PM	#36
Keg Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2011 Location: Freestone County, Texas Posts: 1,133	I looked at the Pennsylvania gun laws since 2006...I could not find anything saying a 410 was not a shotgun or could not be used.....Anyone have any proof? __________________ Hog Hunters never die........They just reload.........

February 2, 2012, 09:29 AM	#38
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Legal for deer in a rifle area, not legal for deer in a shotgun only area. State law, what more do you need? When Pa. started special regulations areas (Shotgun only) that was the law. It may have been more than 3 years since it changed, time flies. I had no idea they made baiting deer illegal again in Spec Regs areas. I really don't keep up on the book and don't bait anyway. The .410 law change may go back more than 3 years. The original debate was "When is a .410 not considered a shotgun?". There you have it. The Pennsylvania State Game Commission did not consider it a shotgun. Other states do have a power limit on shotguns, but in Pa. it was legal in a rifle area as far back as I can remember. Last edited by Gunplummer; February 2, 2012 at 09:43 AM.

February 2, 2012, 09:58 AM	#39
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	I get it. Shotguns are legal for hunting in shotgun areas. .410's are not legal for hunting in shotgun areas. Therefore; .410's are not shotguns. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

January 28, 2012, 05:47 AM	#26
Todd1700 Senior Member Join Date: August 5, 2008 Posts: 192	A 410 would be fine for squirrel and if that's what I already had I'd use it for that. As a weapon for deer I wouldn't go that route. And I speak as someone who killed my first deer as a child with a 410. A doe, but I shot her at a whopping 20 yards and she still ran a helluva ways. It's just pretty weak for deer. Also as others have said already many stores carry a very limited selection of 410 shells if they have any at all. And they are pricey little suckers in stores around here too. Yeah you can order a box online but I personally hate ordering things online where the shipping costs as much or more than the thing you are ordering. I'd get at least a 20 gauge. Some manufacturer (mossberg maybe) actually sells a combo model shotgun that comes with a smoothbore barrel and a rifled barrel for slugs.

January 29, 2012, 11:15 AM	#28
natman Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2008 Posts: 2,607	I'll go so far as to agree that the 410 name does not match the usual convention for shotgun names. However, trying to argue that a 410 is not a shotgun is too silly for words. Other than the name, please cite one way in which a 410 is fundamentally different than a 12 gauge.

January 29, 2012, 11:36 AM	#29
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	"...please cite one way in which a 410 is fundamentally different than a 12 gauge." "There ain't ary." I saw a 9mm shotgun in the Roy Acuff collection on display at Opryland. European-made. I'm not quite sure as to an appropriate use...

February 1, 2012, 09:19 AM	#35
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	Not a shotgun. Only legal in rifle areas until the law changed about 3 years ago.

February 1, 2012, 06:39 PM	#37
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	If pennsylvania had that law on the books, it certainly did not agree with BATFE's definition. IF you cut one down under 18" w/o a O.D.D. registration you get into a heap O'trouble. Rifles you can go down to 16" before that kicks in. I think I'll go with the .fed definition. You don't have to agree with me but if you roll the dice you take your chances. Now I would believe that the state had a minumum power floor codified that the 410 didn't meet.

February 2, 2012, 10:39 AM	#40
bk688 Member Join Date: May 24, 2009 Posts: 53	Another post So I took my uncles old single shot .410 to the range this past week. It held about 4 inches at 50 yards with slugs (winchester super-x). I can only assume that with a rifled bore (which the circuit judge has) it would be more accurate, although that still puts it in the vitals of a deer at that distance. At 25 yards with #6 it made a nice pattern although there was a good point above about the judge donuting the pattern. I wonder what effect this might have while squirrel hunting. I may end up buying a single shot .410, Although fast-eddie's lever-action was a nice temptation. A single shot would be a good thing to give to the kid for her first squirrel hunt (5 more years). Still may buy the circuit judge, especially if they do end up making pistol caliber cartridges legal in rifles in Illinois. Plus, Art Eatman, I kinda like that silly look it has.

February 2, 2012, 01:28 PM	#41
Buzzcook Senior Member Join Date: November 29, 2007 Location: Everett, WA Posts: 6,126	Gauge and bore are synonymous. While it may be more usual to use gauge for shotguns and bore for rifles, they both mean the same thing, the number of pellets of the muzzle size needed to make a pound.

February 2, 2012, 10:23 PM	#43
Gunplummer Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2010 Location: South East Pa. Posts: 3,364	There you have it. ".410 bore and slug" I strongly suspect that a .50 cal. smooth bore musket would have been illegal also. The designation "bore" was enough to make it illegal at the time. Enough nonsense, they changed the law anyway.

February 4, 2012, 02:04 AM	#44
sc928porsche Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2008 Location: now living in alabama Posts: 2,433	Small shot does not travel far. You may have a total of 3/4 of an ounce of shot, but the individual shot of 7 1/2 does not carry very far. The .410 is quite effective on squirrels and rabbits. It is also effective on game birds although using the .410 for them is quite challenging. __________________ No such thing as a stupid question. What is stupid is not asking it.

February 4, 2012, 06:43 PM	#45
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	When 410 shot bounces of of a piece of plywood, it really stings the lips. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

February 10, 2012, 10:14 AM	#46
chewie146 Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2010 Location: New Mexico Posts: 853	I always used a 12 gauge on squirrels unless all I had with me was my .22 pistol. Use a smaller shot, and you'll do fine. The circuit judge is an interesting gun, but really a toy. If you got really close, it would probably work. From what I've read, the smaller the shot size, the more prone to the doughnut pattern they are. 12 gauge and 20 gauge are much cheaper for the small game loads, and the slugs pack much more punch for deer. If you do decide on the circuit judge or judge pistol, be forewarned that in NM, shotgun is only a weapon that is designed to be fired from the shoulder (for the purposes of hunting.) That means I cannot use my pistol gripped shotgun under state law for hunting squirrels. At least, that's how I interpret the law. You'd have to do a lot of product testing with that gun to see what shells pattern acceptably and at what range.