1907 .303 British Ammo discovered. - Page 2

F. Guffey · April 16, 2012, 11:38 AM

http://www.cowart.info/Florida%20His...0Biography.htm

If the English had anything but cordite they would have used it, they made an attempt at designing a rifle to replace the 303, Kipling and Doyle saw what happened to the British in war with the Orange Free States, seems the farmers armed with the Mauser had the advantage, knowing was going to be done about improving the rifle they went back to England and started training the British methods and techniques to improve marksmanship.

Then in about 06 the British started to build a rifle with a chamber similar to the 280 Ross, big problem, it was difficult to close the bolt and then pull the trigger before time ran out, heat created by the high pressure round caused the ammo to cook-off, and then, the nicest thing that could ever happen to US, they designed the Enfield P13 276, chambered it to 303, then contracted us to build it after they corrected a lot of our bad habits. Before we had a chance to finish the contract building the P14, we were given the opportunity to use their machinery to build the M1917, and England went back to building Enfields chambered in 303.

http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum/...ion-rifle.aspx

http://imageevent.com/willyp/firearm...hww1enfieldp14

Anyhow, if they had anything but cordite, they would have tried it, they could have acquired something else from DuPont, as rumor has it, DuPont went to Europe, signed on to work for one of the powder manufactures, then with his knowledge gained while working there came back and developed smokeless powder.

And I said we were lucky, I would not have P14 and M1917 actions to build rifles with and we would have gone to WW1 with a few 03 Springfields any anything else we could put together like 30/40 Krags, we took a beating in Cuba, the British took a beating in Africa because of their and our choice of arms, yes, the M1917 is one of the nicest things that has ever happened to us until a Canadian designed the M1 Garand.

F. Guffey

F. Guffey · April 16, 2012, 11:49 AM

Then there is the bad habit of chambering old ammo without knowing the condition of the powder, powder can cake on the primer end, powder can cake on the neck end of the case, caked powder on the primer end can cause a delay, it can be a little rough when opening the bolt with bad timing, and powder caked on the neck end of the case is an obstruction, powder on the primer end of the case can ignite, when ignited and no place to go the caked powder constitutes an obstruction.

Not scary for most but when I consider the design of the fire arms old ammo was designed for like the 30/40 Krag and 303 British, for me I will never be desperate enough to chamber an old round and pull the trigger.

F. Guffey

**Mike Irwin** · April 16, 2012, 01:16 PM

Been away most of the last week rebuilding my Mother's porch. By the end of the day I didn't feel much like logging on.

I, however, will continue to fire surplus, and even ancient, ammunition.

Face it, folks, every time we pull the trigger on a gun, there's a chance that the genie might get out of the bottle and raise holy hell no matter what ammo, powder, or age it is.

**Mike Irwin** · April 17, 2012, 06:42 AM

"If the English had anything but cordite they would have used it."

Actually the English DID have powders other than cordite, but cordite, for a number of reasons, became almost the universal standard powder in Britain, military and civilian, for half a century.

Why? Well, because even thought it had some drawbacks, Cordite was actually an incredibly flexible powder.

It was pretty easy to manufacture, it was stable even in nasty tropical environments, it didn't cause interesting pressure excursions (or at least wasn't nearly as prone to them) when heated in the African sun, and it was extremely flexible in that you could take the same basic recipe and make cordite suitable for pistol rounds or for sending a 15" armor piercing shell 20 miles against an enemy ship.

The one issue they did find with Naval cordite (a formulation known as RDX and cut into "ribbons" about 4" wide and about 3/4" thick or so, depending on the application) was that it was, in really hot weather, prone to sweating nitroglycerine....

It's thought that that caused the loss of at least two British ships in peace time.

Changes in formulation solved that issue.

F. Guffey · April 17, 2012, 10:28 AM

Again, Kipling and Doyle knew they were not going to get a better rifle, so they made an attempt to train riflemen to shoot the only rifle they were going to get better. Again, the development of a replacement for the Enfield was delayed by the continued use of cordite, and now I find it was worst than I thought, they had another powder and did not try it, just a guess but is it possible Springfield was in charge of development in England and the US. In the development of the replacement rifle they found the barrels did not stand up to the new round and the powder cooked off (and they had another powder?).

F. Guffey

April 16, 2012, 01:16 PM	#28
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	Been away most of the last week rebuilding my Mother's porch. By the end of the day I didn't feel much like logging on. I, however, will continue to fire surplus, and even ancient, ammunition. Face it, folks, every time we pull the trigger on a gun, there's a chance that the genie might get out of the bottle and raise holy hell no matter what ammo, powder, or age it is. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

April 17, 2012, 06:42 AM	#29
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,379	"If the English had anything but cordite they would have used it." Actually the English DID have powders other than cordite, but cordite, for a number of reasons, became almost the universal standard powder in Britain, military and civilian, for half a century. Why? Well, because even thought it had some drawbacks, Cordite was actually an incredibly flexible powder. It was pretty easy to manufacture, it was stable even in nasty tropical environments, it didn't cause interesting pressure excursions (or at least wasn't nearly as prone to them) when heated in the African sun, and it was extremely flexible in that you could take the same basic recipe and make cordite suitable for pistol rounds or for sending a 15" armor piercing shell 20 miles against an enemy ship. The one issue they did find with Naval cordite (a formulation known as RDX and cut into "ribbons" about 4" wide and about 3/4" thick or so, depending on the application) was that it was, in really hot weather, prone to sweating nitroglycerine.... It's thought that that caused the loss of at least two British ships in peace time. Changes in formulation solved that issue. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

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April 16, 2012, 11:38 AM	#26
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	http://www.cowart.info/Florida%20His...0Biography.htm If the English had anything but cordite they would have used it, they made an attempt at designing a rifle to replace the 303, Kipling and Doyle saw what happened to the British in war with the Orange Free States, seems the farmers armed with the Mauser had the advantage, knowing was going to be done about improving the rifle they went back to England and started training the British methods and techniques to improve marksmanship. Then in about 06 the British started to build a rifle with a chamber similar to the 280 Ross, big problem, it was difficult to close the bolt and then pull the trigger before time ran out, heat created by the high pressure round caused the ammo to cook-off, and then, the nicest thing that could ever happen to US, they designed the Enfield P13 276, chambered it to 303, then contracted us to build it after they corrected a lot of our bad habits. Before we had a chance to finish the contract building the P14, we were given the opportunity to use their machinery to build the M1917, and England went back to building Enfields chambered in 303. http://www.nramuseum.com/the-museum/...ion-rifle.aspx http://imageevent.com/willyp/firearm...hww1enfieldp14 Anyhow, if they had anything but cordite, they would have tried it, they could have acquired something else from DuPont, as rumor has it, DuPont went to Europe, signed on to work for one of the powder manufactures, then with his knowledge gained while working there came back and developed smokeless powder. And I said we were lucky, I would not have P14 and M1917 actions to build rifles with and we would have gone to WW1 with a few 03 Springfields any anything else we could put together like 30/40 Krags, we took a beating in Cuba, the British took a beating in Africa because of their and our choice of arms, yes, the M1917 is one of the nicest things that has ever happened to us until a Canadian designed the M1 Garand. F. Guffey

April 16, 2012, 11:49 AM	#27
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Then there is the bad habit of chambering old ammo without knowing the condition of the powder, powder can cake on the primer end, powder can cake on the neck end of the case, caked powder on the primer end can cause a delay, it can be a little rough when opening the bolt with bad timing, and powder caked on the neck end of the case is an obstruction, powder on the primer end of the case can ignite, when ignited and no place to go the caked powder constitutes an obstruction. Not scary for most but when I consider the design of the fire arms old ammo was designed for like the 30/40 Krag and 303 British, for me I will never be desperate enough to chamber an old round and pull the trigger. F. Guffey

April 17, 2012, 10:28 AM	#30
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	Again, Kipling and Doyle knew they were not going to get a better rifle, so they made an attempt to train riflemen to shoot the only rifle they were going to get better. Again, the development of a replacement for the Enfield was delayed by the continued use of cordite, and now I find it was worst than I thought, they had another powder and did not try it, just a guess but is it possible Springfield was in charge of development in England and the US. In the development of the replacement rifle they found the barrels did not stand up to the new round and the powder cooked off (and they had another powder?). F. Guffey