Is the 9mm enough gun?

[hikingman]

BlueTrain: None of that helped this discussion at all, did it?

Yes, thank you!

[fastbolt]

Is the 9mm enough gun?

It's one of the commonly used defensive/service calibers in use, although it's being eclipsed by the growing acceptance and presence of the .40 S&W in LE/Gov circles.
Dunno how to answer ...

Can you consistently make accurate hits on an intended threat target under highly stressful, dynamic and potentially chaotic situations, in poor/low light conditions, when possibly caught by surprise and mentally & physically unprepared, experiencing any or all of the inherent physiological and mental conditions associated with fear-induced hormonal reactions?

Maybe the reduced recoil of the 9mm will help. Dunno.

I happen to find the 9mm a satisfactory and acceptable caliber for personal defensive use, especially when some of the better modern designed defensive ammunition made by one of the major ammunition companies is being used. I've carried it more often on my own time even though I carried a .40 S&W or .45 ACP issued weapon at work (and I'd have cheerfully continued to carry my previously issued 9mm service weapons if I'd been permitted the option).

Then again, more often than not I carry one or another S&W J-frame loaded with +P ammunition as an off-duty (and now retirement) weapon, so many folks would probably express disagreement with my choices of defensive handguns in general ...

Actual caliber (presuming one of the major center-fire defensive service calibers is being discussed) is sort of farther down on my personal list of potentially critical factors and influences when choosing a dedicated defensive handgun ... but that's just me.

[Will Beararms]

I stand corrected. Thanks D.

[Auto426]

Um... Yes they do. It's the .460 S&W magnum. Bigger version of the .454 casul

Just because it's named ".460", does not mean that the bullet it actually .46 caliber. The .460 uses the same .452 caliber bullet as the old .45 Colt and the .45 ACP, so it's still technically a .45, just one with a really long case behind it.

Besides, that old saying can be put to rest anyway, since they may not make a .46, but they do make a .50. .50 Action Express, .50 G.I., and .500 S&W Magnum all use .50 caliber bullets, and reign supreme as far as normal production handgun projectile size goes.

[mathman]

Is the 9mm enough?

Sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't...but the same can be said about any pistol caliber. Actually, the same can be said about rifles and shotguns as well. There is no magic bullet, caliber, etc.

My thinking is this: pick the gun/caliber you like and are comfortable shooting and practice like hell. When you need it for self defense, if one round is not enough, pull the trigger again and repeat.

These threads are comical to me.

Oh, to answer your question...in my opinion, yes, the 9mm is enough.

[fastbolt]

You know, I remember when I was a young man (end of my 20's) and first entered LE.

The only pistols I felt worth owning were chambered in .22LR and .45 ACP, and my revolvers were wither big bore (.44 Magnum) or medium-bore (.357 Magnum).

I carried an issued .357 magnum service revolver and carried either a .357 or .45 on my own time.

I was really displeased when my agency went to issued 9mm pistols several years later and I had to turn in my issued .357 Magnum revolver.

Fast-forward another 20 years, having gained some experience along the way and having received training & experience as a firearms instructor for 20 years, and I found I'd carried issued service weapons chambered in 9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. I no longer carried off-duty weapons chambered in anything smaller than a .38 Spl/9mm, nor did I carry one of my .44 Magnum revolvers off-duty anymore.

I didn't really care which caliber I carried and even turned down the offer to carry one of the limited Colt 1911's is use for special enforcement in favor of continuing to carry an alloy-framed compact issued pistol which was really light on the hip. (I can't remember if I was carrying a compact .40 or .45 at that particular time.) Besides, the 1911's required a bit more in the way of support and maintenance and I shot a lot for training, qual & practice.

The reason I said earlier that I'd have been satisfied carrying a 9mm for the remainder of my career was that I could shoot one rather well, the reduced recoil and controllability being what it was (even with the +P and +P+ loads), it held 'enough' capacity to satisfy me and I'd had reasonably good experience with the issued 9's I'd been carrying. One of them had seen upwards of what I estimated to be more than 45,000 rounds fired through it.

I think the .40 S&W is a fine, serviceable cartridge for defensive usage, albeit it possesses some brisker, snappier recoil (I own 5 .40s')... and I'll always have an affinity for the .45 ACP (owning 9 pistols chambered for it at the moment, and preparing to order 1-2 more) ... but the lightweight, compact & subcompact 9's serve my needs pretty well (own 5 of them), along with my collection of J's (5 of them, with at least 1 more I'd like to pick up), of course.

Or, to put it another way, I usually choose to carry my CS9 (3") over my CS45 (3.25") and my 3913 (3.5") over my 4513TSW (3.75") or 4040PD (3.5" .40 on the 3913 frame size), and so on with other comparisons of various smallish & large pistols I own.

It's a toss up between my pairs of G26's and my G27. I've shot about 11K rounds through each model. I like the controllability & recoil management characteristics of the G26 ... but I do almost as well with the G27 ... and the more I shoot the G27, the better I seem to shoot my G26's.

They're still just handguns, though.

I prefer to focus more attention on mindset, skillset, abilities, training, practice and experience than I do on the specific caliber, when it comes right down to it ...

Enjoyable enough to politely discuss and debate, though.

[scsov509]

These threads are comical to me.

+1 Pick a caliber and go shoot...

[hogwiley]

Im not criticizing the OPs question, I find these types of caliber debates interesting. But this issue has been debated and researched to death, and there doesnt seem to be a definitive answer. Everyone has their opinion and can make a case for it, but it really comes down to personal preference.

The 9mm is certainly capable of killing or stopping someone, regardless of how big or drugged up they are. I dont see 9mm as a mouse gun.

Still, the FBI probably conducted as much objective research into this question as anyone, and decided to go with the .40 for a reason, and they havent changed their mind after all these years. The .40 is a larger heavier round traveling at about the same velocity as a 9mm, and features a larger hollowpoint cavity, so it is obviously going to do more damage than an equivalent 9mm in most instances, that really isnt debateable. The question is whether the difference is enough to justify the additional recoil.

For me personally, I prefer .40 in a full size gun, and 9mm in a subcompact. I like the glock 19/23 platform, which is kind of halfway between the two, and went back and forth between which caliber to get before finally settling on the .40. I decided on this after an incident where a neighbor who is an ex con was showing off his illegally obtained .40 handgun full of DPX hollowpoints. I found him drunk sitting on my porch, gun in hand one night, I had my 9mm sig handy and called the cops, but since I live in the middle of nowhere the response time is pretty lengthy. He left without incident before the cops got there, but I remember feeling that I wouldnt want to be trading shots with someone at close range with a 9mm, when they have a .40. I definitely felt like I would be at a disadvantage.

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Still, the FBI probably conducted as much objective research into this question as anyone

Speaking of FBI research into handgun wounding effectiveness, here is another good study:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

The .40 is a larger heavier round traveling at about the same velocity as a 9mm, and features a larger hollowpoint cavity, so it is obviously going to do more damage than an equivalent 9mm in most instances, that really isnt debateable.

Yeah, according to the link in my previous post, the difference between an expanded 9mm JHP and an expanded .40 JHP is 0.06" - which is pretty close to what the difference is between an unexpanded 9mm and an unexpanded .40 as well.

An edge; but not an edge that will substitute for poor shooting.

[Bowdog]

NJ -How do you get a Carry Permit in the People's Republic of New Jersey? Didn't think you could. How about hollow points? So you are using ball in your 9?

[Noreaster]

Absolutely. Espicially with the newer rounds. The standard pressure 147 grain HP, (use to be a junk round because it wouldn't expand reliable,) is right up there with any 357 sig or 40 round, (check out the test done with Winchester LE.) I'm not saying it's better, but it aint bad either. Shot placement, badguy demeanor and sobriety, and some other factors play much more of a role then the caliber. My duty gun is a 357 Sig, I just bought a PX4 in 9mm. My agency use to give us all the ammo we needed. Budget is gone and I have to buy my own off duty shooting ammo now. I bought a 9mm just for the price of ammo.

I had a class at the Sig Academy and there were two British Army guys going through the same class. Those guys have been there and done that. They couldn't figure out why anyone would carry anthing bigger then a 9mm. These weren't standard infantry guys who never shot a pistol, they actually use handguns in their regiment. British SAS carry 9mm, US Navy Seals carry 9mm, (and other tier 1 teams carry 45s.) NYPD, LAPD, Miami Dade PD carry 9mm.

Your not limited to ball ammo. Buy a 9mm and practise all day and night with cheap ammo and buy a couple of boxes of carry rounds. Just beware, allot of opinions and articles out there are based on 9mm ammo from the 80s and 90s. There are much better choices now. Just my long winded 2 cents!

[JROD102]

Don't know if its been mentioned yet as I didn't read every post so I could be rehashing another post. But I tell you what, ask some of the folks out in Arizona if the 9mm is potent enough and see what response you get. Ask around in VA,Tech area if the 9mm is potent enough.

Nuff said...

[skoro]

For goblins and other bad guys, it's enough.

For grizzly bears, it's a little light.

[JohnO]

Pretty sure it works on zombies, too.

[MAG12GUNNER]

Enough for what ??

[dlb435]

9mm has been through two world wars, countless other conficts, the choice for the Uzi and untold numbers of police department throught the world. Yes, it's enough.
You still need to spend time at the range. It enough but it's not magic.

[BlueTrain]

Here's a couple more sticks on the fire.

It seems to me that the differences in 9mm handguns and .45 ACP handguns are more a matter of perception than reality. Naturally you can pick and choose to make your point but the largest and heaviest .45 auto weighs in at 39 ounces (a Colt Government Model). A Ruger P345 comes in at about ten ounces less. A real lightweight only brings the weight down another five or six ounces. A 9mm can weight as much as a Colt Government Model or rather less than 20 ounces.

The weight makes a difference in carrying comfort, I suppose, once you've owned a lighter model, although the really light ones in either caliber do kick. They don't hurt to shoot, they're just a handful when you shoot them. That will slow down repeat shots.

But do you give up anything else besides ease of shooting with a smaller and, especially, a shorter barrelled pistol?

There isn't a whole lot written about the issue of velocity loss in shorter barrels, presumably because most would just prefer to ignore it. Yet older guns invariably had longer barrels than guns today typically have. The barrel length doesn't make as much difference in concealability as the butt and a lot of pistols have, uh, put on weight there. But I guess you can't have everything.

[N.H. Yankee]

I've carried everything from a 41 magnum, 357mag, 45acp, 38 super, 40S&W, 10mm, 380 and 9mm. My primary carry guns for the concrete jungle are 9mm pistols. I carry my 40's when woods hiking but not casual CCW.

The difference between 9mm,40 and 45acp is much smaller than it once was and the 9mm got a bad rap from the FBI's Miami shootout. Bullet placement is critical and the 9mm bullet that started it all in Miami was the 115gr silvertip that barely missed penetrating deep enough to hit the heart on Perp Platt on a side angle hit.

Bullet technology has seen much advancement since that time and the top end performing 9mm ammo meets the FBI's latest protocol for performance. Any ammo is only as good as the shot placement, while some bullets perform much better than others, if it isn't where it counts performance is of little advantage.

I think we here of more failures with the 9mm due to two factors, there are more 9mm weapons in use so the odds are more shootings, more failures. If you have 100 chevy's on the road and 10 Fords, you'll hear of more chevy problems than Fords due to sheer numbers. The reason for most of these failures is shooter related and not caliber related, and perhaps a smaller number due to choice of ammo.

[tgreening]

I don't know squat about which caliber is good for what purpose but it seemed to make sense that bigger was better. It did anyway until doing some reading the other night (online) where a gentleman said that caliber had very little to do with kill ability. He had an interesting photo of some shots placed into ballistic gel (I think that's the term) and everything from .38 up to .45 had almost identical penetration. All the rounds expanded to almost the same diameter. I believe there was .100 difference in diameter from the smallest to the largest (.45).

According to him fragmentation was one of, if not the most important factor in determining a given rounds ability to inflict damage, but hand gun rounds in general don't do much fragmenting. Expansion only. Anyway, for the uninitiated it was fairly interesting. Link below for those interested.

https://www.unitedstatesmilitia.com/...read.php?t=941

[peter_s]

So what will your comprimise be? Mine was 14 rounds of 135 grain Nosler 40 S&W that gives me 9mm speed and a almost a 45 ACP punch.

Jim, If weight and speed are the criteria then I would have to submit a 9mm 147 grain HP/XTP (handload) at 1150 ft/s and 434 ftlb energy can't be far off.

[BlueTrain]

Although the 9mm was not one of them, Chic Gaylord's book on handguns from the 1950s included a number of photos of bullet wounds in corpses. The holes (the one made going in--not shown where it came out) pretty much all looked the same and all the men were dead. Of course that is an unrepresentative view of the matter since those that did not die (of the shooting) were not included. I'd also have to say that it would be difficult to clearly show any internal damage without it being accompanied by a lot of medical detail that would go over most of our heads. In any case, it gave you a cold blooded view of gunshot wounds.

I've also seen a photo of a shotgun wound in the face (I worked for a photo lab and a police agency somewhere around D.C. was a customer) and relative to the bullet wounds, it was impressive.

[alabama]

Yes it is enough. If you shoot a bad guy with a 9mm .40 or .45 with good ammo the end result will be the same. Each one has a advantage in some way. The 9mm holds more ammo has less recoil,less weight, muzzle flash,drop and has a higher velocity then the .45. The .45 leaves a little bit bigger hole thats its only advantage. The .40 holds a couple rounds less than the 9 but a couple more than the 45. It has higher velocity then the .45. It also penetrates better.The fbi ballistic tests said the .40 done the best. Size matters but so does velocity sectional density and hydostatic shock. The 9mm and .40 have several advantages over the .45. The 45 has only 1 over them.

[Trigger Finger]

Not this again!!!

Yes..It is enough..Many police departments still use this caliber.

Many have chosen to go with something more powerful!!

Just make sure it feeds very good in your gun, use good hollow point ammo and practice!!

IMHO

Also IMHO +P ammo is better.

[Trigger Finger]

"Too add another story. I remember reading about a "gung ho" cop who recklessly took on 3 bad guys all armed with 12 GA. pump shotguns that were robbing a store at night in a big city, might have been New York. He used nothing more than a police issue .38 special with 158 grain round nose lead bullets and with 3 shots killed 3 men in less than a second or two. "

Yes, Yes.....stories are all over the place. Like the guy who killed his first black bear with a 32ACP when it broke into his cabin.
Do these "stories" really have a place here?

[Wag]

Add me to the "it's plenty big" crowd.

--Wag--