Whats the difference?

[hogdogs]

I am sure that I have the right to pose these questions to my fellow TFL folks...

First off... I have never paid to hunt nor paid for a taxidermy mount. I also have never invested a single penny to encourage deer to spend time in a spot so I can shoot them... I have, on the other hand, baited hog traps.

Here we get to the nitty gritty... I will not mention names as those folks know who they are.

Many say they will never bait, pay for a canned hunt etc... So I ask... Do you use the atlatl or do you just use the fire and cliff method?

When and/or if you need to rid your home of mice or rats, do you bait the trap? Why use the trap? You are the top apex predator so run them down and eat them!

Why pay for pest control? Why buy skeeter spray? HUNT THEM!!!

I personally feel it is un ethical to pay for meat that has been kept penned in a fence and suckered or zapped to be butchered and wrapped in plastic. I do consume this processed meat myself.

If a person is within the law of the land, how are they being immoral or unethical?
Fair chase? Give me a break!!! If you are using a firearm or modern bow, how is this FAIR CHASE?"
Brent

[Old Grump]

Never had to wrestle a white tail have you?

[hogdogs]

OG, I have "dispatched" a couple white tail with a knife but I find it very tuff to wrestle with them after running a couple miles at full sprint
Brent

[cat9x]

lame thread

[hogdogs]

cat, How so? Hit a little to close to home for you?

Considering the posts I have read over the time I been a TFL member, I feel it is actually a decent thread topic. Have you read the replies from hunters regarding "canned hunts", bait and the like? Many of these folks that reply to those threads in the negative actually have the gall to hunt with a rifle!
How dare they bring high technology to the hunt field and callously kill these animals without giving thought to "fair chase"...
Don't like the thread? Report it to Art...
Brent

[FrontSight]

I say if it moves, and isn't endangered, and isn't human, then have at it, in any way you want that is quick as humanely possible. Which species you are comfortable with taking is up to you. Fenced, not fenced, tied to a tree, whatever, as long as it's legal where it happens & you don't lie about it.

[hogdogs]

& you don't lie about it.

DING DING DING... WE HAVE A WINNAH!!
That is my submission for "Sentence of the year" award here on TFL...
Brent

[FrontSight]

DING DING DING... WE HAVE A WINNAH!!
That is my submission for "Sentence of the year" award here on TFL...
Brent

Why, thank you...thank you very much!

When you think about it, cattle, sheep, pigs, chicken, etc etc are all raised on farms / ranches for the supermarket and then one by one slaughtered, butchered, packaged & shipped. They have no hope for escape, and their fate is sealed the day they are born. No different really than being tied to a tree when the farmer comes with an axe in his hand or the rancher loads the steers ontot he truck...

So I see no ethical dilemna in canned hunts at all...they are the same as a farm, except that a "hunter" shoots the animal for sport instead of a slaughterhouse worker slicing its throat for $x amount an hour.

But, the honesty in recounting how you obtained it is where it all comes together. Just like how there is a legitimate market for cubic zirconia, there should be a legitimate market for farmed animals to "hunt".

[Christchild]

I have to agree, that when it comes to Harvest/Take of game animals for food, "Canned" hunts, over feeders or whatever, FOR FOOD, and it's legal, go for it.

I would rather not see animals shot that are actually TRAPPED IN A PEN that You can see ALL sides of, especially by guys actually WEARING CAMO (), but aside from that, I'd go to "great lengths" in order to eat.

HogDogs, I didn't really understand what You were getting at in Your OP......

[Christchild]

I've been a Fisherman my entire life. I prefer artificial over live or cut bait, but I'm NOT against putting a Shiner, Cocahoe, Live or Dead Shrimp, or Live Worm on a hook. Isn't that Pretty Much the same as baiting Game Animals???

Like I said in my previous reply, I wouldn't be Very Pleased to see animals being shot that are Trapped in a Pen, and have THAT called a "Hunt", which would be like Fishing in an Aquarium...I'll leave that to the Farmers/Industry. But at the same time, I wouldn't give someone "Flak" about it, if they did. I'll just do my thing my way. I enjoy the pursuit, the chase, the hunt. Hunter Vs. Hunted. It's definitely a feeling of Greater Accomplishment, but I'd "hunt" over a feeder, also. I never have, but sometimes, I'd take Easy Street if the opportunity presented itself.

[DRice.72]

Hogdogs, I'm going to take up hog hunting just so I can have that sig as a bumper sticker!!!

I think our hunting "ethics" come more from tradition than regulations, though state regulations and their enforcement has changed the way we people hunt.

I'm sure a person hunting in Montana or any other sparsely populated area would have a fit hunting where I live. I also imagine they would more than likely laugh at what I consider a good animal to take.

Lets just take tree stands. Deer have no natural enemies from the air, so they don't look up. Makes a tree stand perfect for keeping out of sight while hunting. The only way a deer will know you are there is if they catch your scent in the wind, or if you make a loud unnatural noise that attracts their attention, right? Does this advantage make it unethical? Our great-grandfathers did not hunt from tree stands.

How about horses, I have heard that deer won't run from a horse,I don't know if that is true or not I have never actually done it, but if it is true would that be unethical as well, would it still be unethical if you were hunting the Bob Marshall wilderness in Montana, or hunting in Canada, where the only access to the game is by horseback?

[hogdogs]

CC, My original intent was posed to the membership that feels it is okay to question the legal take methods of some while utilizing the technological capabilities in all other aspects of their hunting.

Here are a few items I feel take out the "fair chase out of the equation...
Weapons
Camo clothing
Scent blocker chemicals
Artificial or natural packaged attractants
Tree stands
Range finders
Any other Optical enhancing device
Shoes

I could go on but what I am going after is to point out the hypocrisy some seem to exude when knocking the use of guides, paid hunts and bait.
Just read the "is this a shooter" thread to see a bit from other hunters who are obviously unaware that the above listed items remove the fair chase aspect...
Me? I am totally happy utilizing legal technology (if a Mossberg 500 and Marlin 336 can be considered "technology") to take my game meat...
Would I attempt "fair chase" hunting? HECK NO... Not unless I knew it was only chance at protein.
Brent

[TMUSCLE1]

Is hiring a guide the same as a "canned" hunt? I've seen posts on here that think it is and others that don't. Just like dogs in some parts of the country and some can't do that in other parts.

[MLeake]

... there's a difference between a "canned" hunt on a 2000 acre plantation, where the critters have the run of the place, and a "canned" hunt where the animals are limited to a pen, or maybe a baseball field sized enclosure.

While it could be argued that there's no difference between a game animal in a smaller enclosure and a farm animal in a slaughterhouse, I'd have to argue that the animal in the slaughterhouse has significantly higher odds of being put down quickly, with minimal pain - or at least minimal duration of pain.

So, to me, I suppose the questions are: 1) Does the hunter actually have to exert some effort to find the quarry? 2) Can the quarry avoid or elude the hunter?

If the answers to those questions are resounding Noes, then I guess I wouldn't find such hunts ethical.

[Christchild]

HogDogs,

I agree. If ALL those things were taken out of hunting, I'd have to be mighty hungry to "fair chase" just about any animal, other than maybe.....baby chickens...

[DRice.72]

If I had to "fair chase" anything, it would be my house cats. I believe I could take 'em!

[.284]

Hogdogs, I think I see your point. I do think you are purposely pushing the envelope with the concept of "fair chase" to prove it.

Are you trying to imply that it is wrong for our fellow members to bash other members for enjoying the same sport they do just because it's done in a manner that conflicts with their methods or beliefs? If so, I couldn't agree more.

No one has the right to stop a fellow sportman from excercising his or her right to enjoy their passion when it's done within the laws that govern their sport or area....The Anti's don't need the help.

I don't bait but, I don't have a problem with those that do. However, if I find a bait pile in lower Michigan.......now I have a problem. It has been banned. It is still legal in the Upper Pennisula......not a problem. Although, if I find a bait pile up there that is more than the legal limit of 2 gallons....I have another problem.

I guess my point is if someone chooses to enjoy hunting by any means legal (canned hunt, 1000 yard shot, bait, no bait....hell.... purchased the entire hunting department of your nearest Bass Pro) go for it.

[hogdogs]

.284, Yes that is exactly my intent in this thread...
I personally choose not to bait (also not legal in Fla) nor use tree stands but cannot knock those that do.
I know many do not agree with my use of dogs to hunt hogs. No guns and the bulldogs catch and hold the hog by the ear or jaw. Many folks think it is immorally cruel to either the hogs or dogs or both.
I just invite them to go for a run with me and junior...
Brent

[DRice.72]

That sounds interesting. I'd actually like to try it. We don't have many hogs here in WNC, and I don't know anybody who hunts them. I have come across them fishing, armed only with a small caliber pistol.

The only hunt I ever had a problem with, it has since been banned, was a hunt offered in Kansas. You paid a fee and you were scheduled a time. At that time you logged onto your computer and went to a web site logged in etc. Then you sat watching a bait pile over a web cam. When a deer came into view, you somehow aimed a rifle from your house and killed the deer. You did this sitting in your house, in your pj's drinking hot cocoa. At the time it was legal, but I really had a problem with that one. I'm glad they banned it.

[hogdogs]

Drice, I didn't even have an issue with that hunt. I was concerned that some yahoo would figure out a way to hack in and shoot when the "guide" was not there to harvest the animal or worse... someone shoot an employee as they refilled the feeder...
Brent

[DRice.72]

I think I look at it this way. Would "I" do that. I couldn't bring myself to sit in my comp room and kill a deer. I would have to take a lap top and go outside at least! LOL!

[hogdogs]

ROFL... Dressed in $1,000 worth of camo in a tree stand on a long leaf pine in my front yard with a laptop... Now to make a mouse with a pistolgrip and trigger...
Brent

[DRice.72]

Hmmm the more I think about it, the better that sounds! They dress it butcher it and send it to you too. LOL!

[koolminx]

I am a person that will only hunt an animal that has not been baited.

I gotta agree with Scrap a little here again...
In my own personal view canned hunting is NOT hunting, it's SHOOTING... Anyone that has a gun can go and shoot a deer elk whatever.
It takes SKILL and Cunning and Reasoning to walk into the field, and kill your game without bait. A canned hunt has almost none of those things... Neither does sitting in a dang tree waiting for a deer to walk by....

I am a Still Hunter, always have been always will be. Tried a tree once, it felt like cheating.

I use a Bow, and I use a Rifle and Black Powder, in all cases I've been skunked more than not, and I'm sure that even the baited method can be a game of skunked or not skunked.... I just feel pride in knowing that nothing helped me do it, but the car that got me to the woods and my own cunning and skill.

So I base my hunting skills on my self pride, and I would NEVER (If I attended one) try to pull off a baited kill as one of skill and cunning as I would know the lie in my heart, and I cannot be proud of a lie.

Notice that I did NOT say that you cannot be proud of your shot! But, to think that a baiter can be proud of the way he hunted is to go beyond ridiculous in my personal opinion.


K

[2damnold4this]

http://fwp.mt.gov/news/article_2557.aspx