Full Auto M16 .22LR conversion kit

Machineguntony · July 4, 2013, 12:01 PM

Question fellas,

Can you recommend a .22LR kit to convert my soon to be m16a2, a1? I would like to save some money by shooting 22LR instead of .223.

Is it even possible to reliably shoot .22LR on a converted .223? I've been doing some research and there appears to be some reliable ones, like the one from STAG. But all the reviews are for semi auto conversions.

If I convert, should I use an entirely different upper for the .22LR? I have a nice SBR upper (a colt commando 11.5 inch), and I don't want to foul it, so I'm thinking of just buying a .22LR dedicated upper. Will this in any way damage the lower? I don't think so, but you guys have more knowledge than I do on this topic, and I would like to make sure.

James K · July 4, 2013, 12:22 PM

The .22 LR conversions I know about are straight blowback and replace the bolt and bolt carrier; they don't have a means of tripping the auto sear.

Also, I wonder if a conversion kit that would work FA might itself be considered an MG even if it didn't work as such in a SA rifle.

Jim

Jim Watson · July 4, 2013, 12:51 PM

I shot an M16 LR conversion once, but do not recall the brand.
The limitation seemed to be in a 30 round LR magazine keeping up with full auto, it was not terribly reliable. Cheap fun, though. Granted you have already paid for the base M16.

James K · July 4, 2013, 01:17 PM

What I would want to be sure of is the legal status. The caliber of the gun is part of its description in the Form 4 papers; if a conversion kit is used, that caliber changes. Does that make it a new gun (and hence not permitted) or just an accessory to the already-registered gun? I don't know, but in the current anti-gun administration, I would want to have all the I's dotted and T's crossed before doing anything that BATFE could use as an excuse to "crack down" on an evil gun owner.

Jim

medalguy · July 5, 2013, 11:34 PM

I never tried my M16 .22 conversion on full auto but I do have a Lakeside belt-fed upper that WILL work FA on my M16 lower.

dogrunner · July 14, 2013, 01:19 PM

First, it is possible to utilize a conversion unit on your '16 with fairly good reliability. In terms of what specific brand to choose from I'd defer to some of the newer owners of such devices as mine is now in it's mid-30's........

Mine is a 'Bro-Cal' selective fire version....basically it's an Atchison that was produced by an Ohio Co. during the 80's....from what I can tell from the one's I've seen it's absolutely identical with the stuff that J.A. Ceiner was marketing.

In terms of reliability the singular issue I experienced was extraction problems.....as I recall the extractor would drop the cartridge free just prior to it's cleaing the gun.......not always, but frequently enough to aggravate the hell out of me....I modified the extractor for a tighter grasp on the cartridge rim and slightly re-angled it to solve the problem. Reliability is about the same in either mode of fire.

Accuracy is quite good, regardless of the many, many claims I've read to the contrary, certainly good enough for general field use, could be used for small game and will with certainty keep a tin can bouncing as long as you want to shoot at it. Shooting full from a rest is a really interesting exercise in full automatic fire control............kinda like a 30 round woodpecker on wire reel target backings!

Downside.......chamber insert has a tendency to accumulate lead like a dog does fleas.........some brands are worse than others, the imported Russian stuff being the worst in my experience....

And yes, it IS cheaper than the full powered ammo.........IF you can find any .22's, something I haven't seen hereabouts on a dealers shelf since last fall!!

mingheemouse · July 14, 2013, 06:40 PM

I use a dedicated Spike's upper with an auto-trip. The auto-trip needed to be filed down and the spring trimmed until the timing (when the hammer is released by the auto sear) was correct. It is more reliable with some types of .22lr ammo (like CCI AR Tactical, and mini-mags) than with some others. I'm sure there are plenty of other solutions. This is what worked for me on my Colt 715.

The auto-trip, with an anti-bounce weight is the set of components allowing the .22 bolt to interact with the auto sear on your registered lower. If you don't yet have your registered lower, it might not be a good idea to get those two parts until your stamp comes back. This is not legal advice, just the way I would do it.

mooman · July 16, 2013, 07:56 PM

Jonathan Arthur Ciner makes a first class conversion unit. I have one that is a blast to shoot. Like most 22's it is ammo senstive.

Armorer-at-Law · July 17, 2013, 09:33 AM

The CMMG dedicated .22 upper (with auto sear trip kit) is said to run reliably once it is "tuned" for the correct timing and ammo. I don't have one yet, but it is a purchase planned for this year to run my full auto lower more economically.

Quote:

What I would want to be sure of is the legal status. The caliber of the gun is part of its description in the Form 4 papers; if a conversion kit is used, that caliber changes. Does that make it a new gun (and hence not permitted) or just an accessory to the already-registered gun?

Not a problem unless the change is permanent. Swapping on a different upper (while retaining the other lower) is a temporary change.

James K · July 17, 2013, 10:43 AM

My concern was with the conversion kit itself. I know the carbine M2 kit has been ruled a machinegun of and by itself whether or not it is anywhere near a carbine.

If a .22 conversion kit will function FA only when installed in a selective fire rifle, it would be an accessory. But if it makes a semi-auto into a FA or selective fire rifle, I would think BATFE would call it an MG in itself.

Jim

dogrunner · July 17, 2013, 01:16 PM

The conversion kits will only function fully automatic in conjunction with a full auto lower.......far as caliber goes, it's only a temporary change and even if it was permanent all you'd have to do is notify ATF........at least they request you do.

Note that the conv. kit is NOT the same thing as the carbine unit....that item is a complete changeover of the lower unit and slide assembly. The .22 units for the 15/16 guns are simply a chamber insert assembly, and if full will include a trip bar and counterweight........none of which will enable a non auto 15 to fire full..........you're OK don't worry about it!

Armorer-at-Law · July 18, 2013, 10:09 AM

Quote:

But if it makes a semi-auto into a FA or selective fire rifle, I would think BATFE would call it an MG in itself.

BATFE would, but as dogrunner said, that's not how it works. If you put an M16 or M4 upper on a semi-auto AR15 lower, it will not enable it to run full auto.

Machineguntony · July 18, 2013, 12:36 PM

So I asked one of my class 3 dealer about this...

BTW, if the class 3 dealer gives bad advice, it is not a defense to breaking the law. You will still be breaking the law and go to prison and lose all your wonderful toys. So do not take this dealers words as gospel, as they do not have any legal authority to interpret the law.

But here is what he said...

He said that the upper is not considered a machine gun so long as it is not attached to a lower that is capable of firing full auto.

The analogy he gave is that you can have as many 10.5 inch AR uppers as you want, you just can't attach those 10.5 inch uppers to a lower, unless the lower is a registered SBR or MG.

Or its like having a registered sear on an MP5. The moment you take out the registered sear, you must immediately disassemble the gun from the receiver, or else you will be in possession of an illegal SBR (which came from the once legal MG).

Again, the class 3 dealer is not a legal authority, and neither am I, so take what he says at your own risk.

I am now going to shop for my full auto 22 upper.

Toodles!

HopeandChange · September 5, 2013, 03:30 PM

Quote:

My concern was with the conversion kit itself. I know the carbine M2 kit has been ruled a machinegun of and by itself whether or not it is anywhere near a carbine.

The conversions are somewhat like a Full auto Bolt carrier group in an AR. Not illegal and not capable of select fire without the evil

Fire control group parts. Specifically a selector, trigger, hammer, and sear of some sort.

johnwilliamson062 · September 6, 2013, 04:42 PM

Quote:

The analogy he gave is that you can have as many 10.5 inch AR uppers as you want, you just can't attach those 10.5 inch uppers to a lower, unless the lower is a registered SBR or MG.

"Constructive possession"?

HopeandChange · September 9, 2013, 11:58 AM

That whole contructive possession thing is a tricky scam.

I think you basically, in a nut shell, should have a legal way to use a short barrel/upper.

They were making the case on AR15.com, with some case history, where problems manifested for guys with No legal way to run a Short barrel were in possession.

With this corrupt administrations clear willingness to abuse power and flat out BREAK THE LAW for their agenda.... I'd error on the side of caution.

July 4, 2013, 12:01 PM	#1
Machineguntony Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2013 Posts: 1,277	Full Auto M16 .22LR conversion kit Question fellas, Can you recommend a .22LR kit to convert my soon to be m16a2, a1? I would like to save some money by shooting 22LR instead of .223. Is it even possible to reliably shoot .22LR on a converted .223? I've been doing some research and there appears to be some reliable ones, like the one from STAG. But all the reviews are for semi auto conversions. If I convert, should I use an entirely different upper for the .22LR? I have a nice SBR upper (a colt commando 11.5 inch), and I don't want to foul it, so I'm thinking of just buying a .22LR dedicated upper. Will this in any way damage the lower? I don't think so, but you guys have more knowledge than I do on this topic, and I would like to make sure.

July 16, 2013, 07:56 PM	#8
mooman Member Join Date: February 8, 2007 Location: Republic of Texas Posts: 16	22 conversion unit Jonathan Arthur Ciner makes a first class conversion unit. I have one that is a blast to shoot. Like most 22's it is ammo senstive.

July 4, 2013, 12:22 PM	#2
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The .22 LR conversions I know about are straight blowback and replace the bolt and bolt carrier; they don't have a means of tripping the auto sear. Also, I wonder if a conversion kit that would work FA might itself be considered an MG even if it didn't work as such in a SA rifle. Jim

July 4, 2013, 12:51 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	I shot an M16 LR conversion once, but do not recall the brand. The limitation seemed to be in a 30 round LR magazine keeping up with full auto, it was not terribly reliable. Cheap fun, though. Granted you have already paid for the base M16.

July 4, 2013, 01:17 PM	#4
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	What I would want to be sure of is the legal status. The caliber of the gun is part of its description in the Form 4 papers; if a conversion kit is used, that caliber changes. Does that make it a new gun (and hence not permitted) or just an accessory to the already-registered gun? I don't know, but in the current anti-gun administration, I would want to have all the I's dotted and T's crossed before doing anything that BATFE could use as an excuse to "crack down" on an evil gun owner. Jim

July 5, 2013, 11:34 PM	#5
medalguy Senior Member Join Date: August 31, 2009 Location: New Mexico Posts: 1,033	I never tried my M16 .22 conversion on full auto but I do have a Lakeside belt-fed upper that WILL work FA on my M16 lower.

July 14, 2013, 01:19 PM	#6
dogrunner Junior member Join Date: June 22, 2009 Location: E/Cntrl Fla. Posts: 98	First, it is possible to utilize a conversion unit on your '16 with fairly good reliability. In terms of what specific brand to choose from I'd defer to some of the newer owners of such devices as mine is now in it's mid-30's........ Mine is a 'Bro-Cal' selective fire version....basically it's an Atchison that was produced by an Ohio Co. during the 80's....from what I can tell from the one's I've seen it's absolutely identical with the stuff that J.A. Ceiner was marketing. In terms of reliability the singular issue I experienced was extraction problems.....as I recall the extractor would drop the cartridge free just prior to it's cleaing the gun.......not always, but frequently enough to aggravate the hell out of me....I modified the extractor for a tighter grasp on the cartridge rim and slightly re-angled it to solve the problem. Reliability is about the same in either mode of fire. Accuracy is quite good, regardless of the many, many claims I've read to the contrary, certainly good enough for general field use, could be used for small game and will with certainty keep a tin can bouncing as long as you want to shoot at it. Shooting full from a rest is a really interesting exercise in full automatic fire control............kinda like a 30 round woodpecker on wire reel target backings! Downside.......chamber insert has a tendency to accumulate lead like a dog does fleas.........some brands are worse than others, the imported Russian stuff being the worst in my experience.... And yes, it IS cheaper than the full powered ammo.........IF you can find any .22's, something I haven't seen hereabouts on a dealers shelf since last fall!!

July 14, 2013, 06:40 PM	#7
mingheemouse Member Join Date: May 9, 2012 Location: Arizona Posts: 27	I use a dedicated Spike's upper with an auto-trip. The auto-trip needed to be filed down and the spring trimmed until the timing (when the hammer is released by the auto sear) was correct. It is more reliable with some types of .22lr ammo (like CCI AR Tactical, and mini-mags) than with some others. I'm sure there are plenty of other solutions. This is what worked for me on my Colt 715. The auto-trip, with an anti-bounce weight is the set of components allowing the .22 bolt to interact with the auto sear on your registered lower. If you don't yet have your registered lower, it might not be a good idea to get those two parts until your stamp comes back. This is not legal advice, just the way I would do it.

July 17, 2013, 10:43 AM	#10
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	My concern was with the conversion kit itself. I know the carbine M2 kit has been ruled a machinegun of and by itself whether or not it is anywhere near a carbine. If a .22 conversion kit will function FA only when installed in a selective fire rifle, it would be an accessory. But if it makes a semi-auto into a FA or selective fire rifle, I would think BATFE would call it an MG in itself. Jim

July 17, 2013, 01:16 PM	#11
dogrunner Junior member Join Date: June 22, 2009 Location: E/Cntrl Fla. Posts: 98	The conversion kits will only function fully automatic in conjunction with a full auto lower.......far as caliber goes, it's only a temporary change and even if it was permanent all you'd have to do is notify ATF........at least they request you do. Note that the conv. kit is NOT the same thing as the carbine unit....that item is a complete changeover of the lower unit and slide assembly. The .22 units for the 15/16 guns are simply a chamber insert assembly, and if full will include a trip bar and counterweight........none of which will enable a non auto 15 to fire full..........you're OK don't worry about it!

July 18, 2013, 12:36 PM	#13
Machineguntony Senior Member Join Date: June 22, 2013 Posts: 1,277	So I asked one of my class 3 dealer about this... BTW, if the class 3 dealer gives bad advice, it is not a defense to breaking the law. You will still be breaking the law and go to prison and lose all your wonderful toys. So do not take this dealers words as gospel, as they do not have any legal authority to interpret the law. But here is what he said... He said that the upper is not considered a machine gun so long as it is not attached to a lower that is capable of firing full auto. The analogy he gave is that you can have as many 10.5 inch AR uppers as you want, you just can't attach those 10.5 inch uppers to a lower, unless the lower is a registered SBR or MG. Or its like having a registered sear on an MP5. The moment you take out the registered sear, you must immediately disassemble the gun from the receiver, or else you will be in possession of an illegal SBR (which came from the once legal MG). Again, the class 3 dealer is not a legal authority, and neither am I, so take what he says at your own risk. I am now going to shop for my full auto 22 upper. Toodles!

September 9, 2013, 11:58 AM	#16
HopeandChange Member Join Date: September 4, 2013 Location: AZ Posts: 65	That whole contructive possession thing is a tricky scam. I think you basically, in a nut shell, should have a legal way to use a short barrel/upper. They were making the case on AR15.com, with some case history, where problems manifested for guys with No legal way to run a Short barrel were in possession. With this corrupt administrations clear willingness to abuse power and flat out BREAK THE LAW for their agenda.... I'd error on the side of caution.