Another Primer Question

Ninth and Plum · September 9, 2008, 03:55 AM

I am using H335 for my 223 with a cci 400 small rifle primer. One of the books I was looking at says to use a magnum primer with this powder. I have not had any trouble with the loads I have test fired but was wondering if I should be using the magnum primers instead.

ir3e971 · September 9, 2008, 05:32 AM

That is the same combo I use, and have never had a problem with it.

Is this for an AR 15 or a bolt action rifle? If it is for an AR, some small rifle primers that are more suitable than others. This is due to the "hardness" of the primer to minimize the possibility of a slamfire.

I have used both the standard CCI small rifle and the CCI #41 small rifle and have had no problems with either.

If you do a search of the handloading section you can find several discussions of which standard small rifle primers are most suitable for this application. I know CCI is one of the harder brands.

Bob

sourdough44 · September 9, 2008, 06:27 AM

I usually cross reference several books before loading a round. I have loaded H335 in the 223 & don't remember it requiring a mag primer.

Sevens · September 9, 2008, 07:18 AM

I have no problem with magnum primers and loads with mag primers if they work for some folks, but I have my own system and it looks like this:

I already keep four sizes of primers. Small pistol, Large pistol, Small Rifle and Large Rifle. That's four different stocks I have to keep tabs on, that's four different huge lots I have to buy to save money by bulk purchasing and I'll just be damned if I ever willingly decided to add yet another primer, and God forbid I added four more different kinds of primer.

So if the data calls for a magnum primer, it's data that is useless to me. If it's a powder that typically, usually, or always calls for a magnum primer, it's powder that has no place at my bench.

If it works for someone else, great. If someone has a very specific need and it's only addressed with a particular combo with a powder and a mag primer, I support them fully. But not at my bench. No way, don't need the hassle.

steve4102 · September 9, 2008, 04:46 PM

Some manuals (Speer) use Mag primers with ball powders in just about every cartridge. They claim that ball powders are harder to ignite and for consistant ignition a Mag primer is recommended. H 335 is one such powder. The Ramshot line of ball powders does not fall into this category. From Ramshot's web page.
" Q: It's been my experience that I need to use a magnum primer with spherical powders. Do I need to use a magnum primer with Ramshot powders?

A: While this may have been true with spherical powders in the past, Ramshot powders employ a new technology of coatings which increase ease of ignition, cleanliness and in most cases decrease temperature sensitivity. You also have to take into account your firearm's accuracy which may or may not perform better with magnum versus non-magnum primers. "

Alleykat · September 9, 2008, 06:47 PM

I've loaded thousands of rounds of .223 for both my bolt rifle and AR, using H335 and other spherical, CCI small rifle primers, and have never had a problem. Great accuracy, totally reliable ignition.

Ninth and Plum · September 10, 2008, 01:02 AM

Thanks guys for all the info, it's nice to see what works for others I think I'll just stick with the regular small rifle primers since they work and that way I don't have to go out and buy more primers.

steve4102 · September 10, 2008, 07:27 AM

Quote:

I've loaded thousands of rounds of .223 for both my bolt rifle and AR, using H335 and other spherical, CCI small rifle primers, and have never had a problem. Great accuracy, totally reliable ignition.

Just out of curiosity, have you compared standard and Mag primers in your 223s with ball powders?

amamnn · September 10, 2008, 05:32 PM

I got involved in the mag primer for ball (spherical) powder issue some years back. The makers of the powder were adamant that it was all hogwash and some other sources--Speer among them-- were claiming that mag primers were needed. I never understood how they figured a pressure spike was going to make a more accurate round and as I recall, they were proved wrong. I did my own small experiment (with a little help from some friends)using 748 and h335 in .223 and 6ppc loads comparing primers. In both cases the standard "strength" primers were a more consistently accurate load when compared in 100 rounds of each caliber. 50 mag and 50 standard were fired for each powder and in each caliber. I know we did not fire sufficient rounds to make a truly scientific test, but it was good enough for me.

For this and for several other reasons, I do not use Speer bullets or Speer data any longer. Back in the day, Speer was a top brand, I don't consider it such anymore.

PS: for anyone interested in loading for the best accuracy possible, Precision Shooting Magazine has been running some very informative articles about primers and also about bullet wind drift in the issues since June. A publication well worth having in my opinion.

crowbeaner · September 10, 2008, 07:41 PM

The only ball powder that I use a "magnum" type primer in rifle cartridges is H380 because of the large spherical size and deterrent coating. I seldom use anything slower than H414, so I just buy what CCI 250s I need for the H380. I use magnum primers with ANY load using WW296 in pistol cartridges. I use standard large rifle primers for powders as slow as IMR 7828 in extruded. I've loaded thousands of cartridges with WW 760 and 748, and never had a problem even in the coldest months of the year. WW 748 is rather temperature sensitive, and use of a magnum primer in hot weather with max or close to max loads can cause some interesting velocity gains. Why Speer insists on using magnum primers with ball powders eludes me. H870 maybe. H335? Nah.

September 9, 2008, 03:55 AM	#1
Ninth and Plum Member Join Date: July 14, 2008 Posts: 25	Another Primer Question I am using H335 for my 223 with a cci 400 small rifle primer. One of the books I was looking at says to use a magnum primer with this powder. I have not had any trouble with the loads I have test fired but was wondering if I should be using the magnum primers instead.

September 10, 2008, 05:32 PM	#9
amamnn Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2006 Location: WA, the left armpit of the USA Posts: 1,323	I got involved in the mag primer for ball (spherical) powder issue some years back. The makers of the powder were adamant that it was all hogwash and some other sources--Speer among them-- were claiming that mag primers were needed. I never understood how they figured a pressure spike was going to make a more accurate round and as I recall, they were proved wrong. I did my own small experiment (with a little help from some friends)using 748 and h335 in .223 and 6ppc loads comparing primers. In both cases the standard "strength" primers were a more consistently accurate load when compared in 100 rounds of each caliber. 50 mag and 50 standard were fired for each powder and in each caliber. I know we did not fire sufficient rounds to make a truly scientific test, but it was good enough for me. For this and for several other reasons, I do not use Speer bullets or Speer data any longer. Back in the day, Speer was a top brand, I don't consider it such anymore. PS: for anyone interested in loading for the best accuracy possible, Precision Shooting Magazine has been running some very informative articles about primers and also about bullet wind drift in the issues since June. A publication well worth having in my opinion. __________________ "If the enemy is in range, so are you." - Infantry Journal Last edited by amamnn; September 10, 2008 at 05:35 PM. Reason: add content

September 10, 2008, 07:41 PM	#10
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	The only ball powder that I use a "magnum" type primer in rifle cartridges is H380 because of the large spherical size and deterrent coating. I seldom use anything slower than H414, so I just buy what CCI 250s I need for the H380. I use magnum primers with ANY load using WW296 in pistol cartridges. I use standard large rifle primers for powders as slow as IMR 7828 in extruded. I've loaded thousands of cartridges with WW 760 and 748, and never had a problem even in the coldest months of the year. WW 748 is rather temperature sensitive, and use of a magnum primer in hot weather with max or close to max loads can cause some interesting velocity gains. Why Speer insists on using magnum primers with ball powders eludes me. H870 maybe. H335? Nah. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

September 9, 2008, 05:32 AM	#2
ir3e971 Senior Member Join Date: August 3, 2006 Posts: 145	That is the same combo I use, and have never had a problem with it. Is this for an AR 15 or a bolt action rifle? If it is for an AR, some small rifle primers that are more suitable than others. This is due to the "hardness" of the primer to minimize the possibility of a slamfire. I have used both the standard CCI small rifle and the CCI #41 small rifle and have had no problems with either. If you do a search of the handloading section you can find several discussions of which standard small rifle primers are most suitable for this application. I know CCI is one of the harder brands. Bob

September 9, 2008, 06:27 AM	#3
sourdough44 Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2007 Location: WI Posts: 621	I usually cross reference several books before loading a round. I have loaded H335 in the 223 & don't remember it requiring a mag primer.

September 9, 2008, 07:18 AM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	I have no problem with magnum primers and loads with mag primers if they work for some folks, but I have my own system and it looks like this: I already keep four sizes of primers. Small pistol, Large pistol, Small Rifle and Large Rifle. That's four different stocks I have to keep tabs on, that's four different huge lots I have to buy to save money by bulk purchasing and I'll just be damned if I ever willingly decided to add yet another primer, and God forbid I added four more different kinds of primer. So if the data calls for a magnum primer, it's data that is useless to me. If it's a powder that typically, usually, or always calls for a magnum primer, it's powder that has no place at my bench. If it works for someone else, great. If someone has a very specific need and it's only addressed with a particular combo with a powder and a mag primer, I support them fully. But not at my bench. No way, don't need the hassle. __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

September 9, 2008, 04:46 PM	#5
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	Some manuals (Speer) use Mag primers with ball powders in just about every cartridge. They claim that ball powders are harder to ignite and for consistant ignition a Mag primer is recommended. H 335 is one such powder. The Ramshot line of ball powders does not fall into this category. From Ramshot's web page. " Q: It's been my experience that I need to use a magnum primer with spherical powders. Do I need to use a magnum primer with Ramshot powders? A: While this may have been true with spherical powders in the past, Ramshot powders employ a new technology of coatings which increase ease of ignition, cleanliness and in most cases decrease temperature sensitivity. You also have to take into account your firearm's accuracy which may or may not perform better with magnum versus non-magnum primers. "

September 9, 2008, 06:47 PM	#6
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	I've loaded thousands of rounds of .223 for both my bolt rifle and AR, using H335 and other spherical, CCI small rifle primers, and have never had a problem. Great accuracy, totally reliable ignition.

September 10, 2008, 01:02 AM	#7
Ninth and Plum Member Join Date: July 14, 2008 Posts: 25	Thanks guys for all the info, it's nice to see what works for others I think I'll just stick with the regular small rifle primers since they work and that way I don't have to go out and buy more primers.