rifle inserts?

macsters · February 27, 2011, 09:56 PM

has anyone used rifle inserts? was the accuracy ok? i was considering getting a .30-30 insert for my 20ga O/U but wanted to know if it would even be useful at all before i spent $100 on it. im not looking for sub moa kind of stuff, but hitting within 6 inches at 100 yards is a must.

Recoiljunky · February 27, 2011, 10:02 PM

now you got me intrested in this ive never heard of it but if it works i want one

macsters · February 27, 2011, 10:09 PM

i had never heard of these things until a few months ago.

googled them, came up with these people:

http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm

haven't called them yet, but i suppose that would be a good way to get some info. you know what they say, though: never ask a barber if you need a haircut.

Recoiljunky · February 27, 2011, 10:14 PM

i wish they woud put a picture on what it looks like but it would be fun to shoot 45-70 out of my sxs

zippy13 · February 27, 2011, 11:36 PM

Gadgets like these have been around for ages. The main drawback is they lack extractors, so it takes some time to reload. This might work for you, or the novelty may quickly wear off. Because shotguns operate at lower pressures, you'll notice that the cartridges available for the converters are handgun or older black powder rifle. They can provide a lot shooting fun, but don't expect MOA accuracy.

hogdogs · February 28, 2011, 12:59 AM

I would think the strength increase created by the insert would make the barrel super strong enuff... And the bolt face, breech face on most guns would most likely handle many rifle cartridge pressures...

Brent

zippy13 · February 28, 2011, 04:19 AM

>I would think the strength increase created by the insert would make the barrel super strong enuff...

The insert, having its own barrel, acts independently. The only thing the shotgun barrel does is support the insert and lock it against the breech face.

>And the bolt face, breech face on most guns would most likely handle many rifle cartridge pressures...

Perhaps not.
The shotgun action may be easily capable of working with the 12-ga shotgun's 11.5-KSI SAAMI maximum pressure or a 45-70 Government's 28-KSI. But, a 30-06 Springfield cartridge, with a max SAAMI pressure of 60-KSI, may stress the shotgun's lock works beyond its elastic yield.

oneounceload · February 28, 2011, 09:04 AM

Remember though as well, many 20 gauge frames are used to build African double guns of the 300 and 375 H&H variety. Browning used to offer their Centennial set - 20 gauge barrels and 30-06 barrels with one action/receiver. Had a chance to buy one years ago - not getting it - ANOTHER of my 20-20 hindsight errors........

darkgael · February 28, 2011, 10:01 AM

As noted by my friend Zippy, inserts are nothing new. I have a few of them (20ga/9mm; 12ga./.357, .44, .45ACP). All but the ACP insert are 2 3/4" length; the rifled barrel thus is very short. They are OK for plinking at 25 yards or less.
The .45 ACP inset fits only in break-open guns as it has a six inch barrel.
It is more accurate than the others but I have never shot it farther than 25 yards.
Frankly, I'd be surprised if you could get six inch groups at 100 yards with a .30-30 insert. Even with a longer barreled insert, it'd be tough.
Pete

Recoiljunky · February 28, 2011, 05:38 PM

I think I might order the 45acp one and post a review on it when I get it this should be interesting

RaySendero · February 28, 2011, 09:03 PM

Quote:

macsters asked:

has anyone used rifle inserts? was the accuracy ok? i was considering getting a .30-30 insert for my 20ga O/U but wanted to know if it would even be useful at all before i spent $100 on it. im not looking for sub moa kind of stuff, but hitting within 6 inches at 100 yards is a must.

macsters,

I've just recently heard of these inserts - Have never seen one. Although I've seen O/U converted to some rimed rifle rounds like the 45/70 and some of the Sharps calibers. The one thing I remember was that the shotgun firing pins had to be replaced with a smaller diameter rifle pin such that the breech face was welded up and redrilled for the smaller pin. I was told this was required to shoot the much higher pressure rifle cartridges.

I can not see how these barrel inserts alone would work safely without GS work on the O/U's firing pins!!!

macsters · February 28, 2011, 11:37 PM

i would be getting the 10 or 18 inch version. probably in 30-30. im assuming accuracy would be better than a 2.5 inch version. the concern about accuracy was more about closeness of fit inside the barrel. if the insert has room to wiggle, accuracy will suffer, probably significantly.

the action is a little bit of a concern though. most 20ga ammo, even slugs, are at 12 kpsi. the 30-30 round is at 40 kpsi, max 50. i could go with a chambering in a smaller round like 9mm, but i was hoping to use it for hogs.

what model are you using your inserts in, darkgael?

Ryder · March 1, 2011, 03:52 AM

I had a chamber insert for the 30-30 rifle that allowed me to fire 32acp. This allowed me to shoot small game without vaporizing the animal.

The neck of the insert cracked on the first shot but it never got worse on following shots so I continued using it. It performed its intended purpose very well but I never ran more than a single box of ammo through it.

darkgael · March 1, 2011, 07:43 AM

Macster: The 6" .45 ACP insert was purchased from McAce. I have used it in a variety
of shotguns - an H&R single, an old O/U Stevens 430, and a number of different SXSs.
Pete
PS - The best experience that I have had with inserts was not with a shotgun but with a "chamber adapter" that allowed me to shoot .45 Colt cartridges in an old Martini-Henry 577-450. There was more to it than just popping Colt rounds into the gun (since diameters were quite different - .452 vs .468) but I was able to get it to shoot acceptably at 50 yards. The bullet is a Lee REAL muzzleloader bullet. A BP load.

Rugerismisticness · March 1, 2011, 02:31 PM

I'd be worried that with such a short barrel and increased pressures, erosion would be likely to occur where the conversion ends.

macsters · March 2, 2011, 02:45 AM

couple things pete: can you confirm that you used .44 mag in one of these? is that the highest pressure round you have used? also, what are the inserts made out of? i.e., is scratching/scraping the inside of your barrel a concern? and how well do they fit in the bore? is it a very tight fit? or is their "play"?

at this point, my thinking is this.

pete was able to safely use inserts for rounds up to .44 magnum. the max pressure there is 36 KSI. .30-30 is slightly more than that, so if I were to do this i would have to be prepared to destroy the action of the gun (as pointed out by zippy13) and possibly injure myself.

The accuracy, as noted by pete, is decent at best. I think the inserts might be capable of good accuracy if mounted on something sturdy, but the fact that they are inside a tube which may or may not fit them perfectly raises serious accuracy concerns.

another concern, as noted by rugerismisticness, is that the sudden sideways movement of expanding gas as it exits the end of the insert but is still within the shotgun barrel will cause erosion. my concern wouldnt be erosion, but LOTS of carbon deposits to clean.

basically, what i would end up with is a cool toy. not something useful. im thinking i will call the manufacturers and talk to them for a little while, and unless i get extremely positive vibes from them, i think it would be a no-go. maybe get an insert in .22 hornet for general plinking fun.

recoiljunky: you should definitely do that. if you get the longer insert, i would be interested in the insert's tightness in the bore of your gun and its accuracy.

Rugerismisticness · March 2, 2011, 05:37 AM

Shotgun barrels are all sorts of different widths, this guy sounds like a gunsmith with a good idea. I think the way to do it might be to send your barrel in, the guy makes an adapter custom to fit your shotgun (note the wait times on the website, he makes them to order, meaning that they might be individually fitted for each gun). I don't quite like the sound of this anymore, too much work. I'd rather just use a .22rifle and a shotgun seperatly.

darkgael · March 2, 2011, 07:23 AM

Quote:

can you confirm that you used .44 mag in one of these?

I have NOT used .44 Magnum factory ammo in the insert that I have. I used my own handloads and they were at .44 Spl. levels.
Accuracy....remember that the picture of the target - if that is what you are referring to - is not an insert used in a shotgun. It was used in a rifle.

The best experience, accuracy-wise, that I have had with an insert in a shotgun was with the aforementioned six inch .45 ACP insert. I have no target for that. If I was careful, I could hit a tin can at 25 yards. Never tried to see what benching would do.
Material - the six inch .45 is made from steel, as is the pictured insert for the Martini-Henry.
McAce is a source.
Also try http://www.gunadapters.com/?gclid=CO...FZ065QodahVWEQ
These are made of steel. There are some videos at this site.
Pete

zippy13 · March 2, 2011, 11:00 AM

We are trying to equate apples and oranges!

There are two different types of sub-cartridge adapters: One type is like a shorter version of a conventional shotgun tube, and is inserted in the bore of a break-open shotgun. It's essentially a single (or double) short. With the other type, the adapter is shaped like a shotgun or rifle cartridge. Its barrel is significantly shorter; but, you can use as many adapters as your magazine (and wallet) can accommodate.

The adapters from the OP's reference, MCA Sports/Ace Bullet, seem to be of both types. Their 2-3/4" adapters may cycle in pump guns, while their 10 and 18" versions are for break-open guns.

February 27, 2011, 09:56 PM	#1
macsters Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2011 Posts: 119	rifle inserts? has anyone used rifle inserts? was the accuracy ok? i was considering getting a .30-30 insert for my 20ga O/U but wanted to know if it would even be useful at all before i spent $100 on it. im not looking for sub moa kind of stuff, but hitting within 6 inches at 100 yards is a must.

February 28, 2011, 04:19 AM	#7
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	>I would think the strength increase created by the insert would make the barrel super strong enuff... The insert, having its own barrel, acts independently. The only thing the shotgun barrel does is support the insert and lock it against the breech face. >And the bolt face, breech face on most guns would most likely handle many rifle cartridge pressures... Perhaps not. The shotgun action may be easily capable of working with the 12-ga shotgun's 11.5-KSI SAAMI maximum pressure or a 45-70 Government's 28-KSI. But, a 30-06 Springfield cartridge, with a max SAAMI pressure of 60-KSI, may stress the shotgun's lock works beyond its elastic yield.

February 28, 2011, 10:01 AM	#9
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	INSERTS As noted by my friend Zippy, inserts are nothing new. I have a few of them (20ga/9mm; 12ga./.357, .44, .45ACP). All but the ACP insert are 2 3/4" length; the rifled barrel thus is very short. They are OK for plinking at 25 yards or less. The .45 ACP inset fits only in break-open guns as it has a six inch barrel. It is more accurate than the others but I have never shot it farther than 25 yards. Frankly, I'd be surprised if you could get six inch groups at 100 yards with a .30-30 insert. Even with a longer barreled insert, it'd be tough. Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

March 1, 2011, 07:43 AM	#14
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	inserts Macster: The 6" .45 ACP insert was purchased from McAce. I have used it in a variety of shotguns - an H&R single, an old O/U Stevens 430, and a number of different SXSs. Pete PS - The best experience that I have had with inserts was not with a shotgun but with a "chamber adapter" that allowed me to shoot .45 Colt cartridges in an old Martini-Henry 577-450. There was more to it than just popping Colt rounds into the gun (since diameters were quite different - .452 vs .468) but I was able to get it to shoot acceptably at 50 yards. The bullet is a Lee REAL muzzleloader bullet. A BP load. __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member Last edited by darkgael; March 1, 2011 at 07:52 AM.

February 27, 2011, 10:02 PM	#2
Recoiljunky Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2011 Location: Jupiter, florida Posts: 233	now you got me intrested in this ive never heard of it but if it works i want one

February 27, 2011, 10:09 PM	#3
macsters Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2011 Posts: 119	i had never heard of these things until a few months ago. googled them, came up with these people: http://www.mcace.com/shotguninserts.htm haven't called them yet, but i suppose that would be a good way to get some info. you know what they say, though: never ask a barber if you need a haircut.

February 27, 2011, 10:14 PM	#4
Recoiljunky Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2011 Location: Jupiter, florida Posts: 233	i wish they woud put a picture on what it looks like but it would be fun to shoot 45-70 out of my sxs

February 27, 2011, 11:36 PM	#5
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Gadgets like these have been around for ages. The main drawback is they lack extractors, so it takes some time to reload. This might work for you, or the novelty may quickly wear off. Because shotguns operate at lower pressures, you'll notice that the cartridges available for the converters are handgun or older black powder rifle. They can provide a lot shooting fun, but don't expect MOA accuracy.

February 28, 2011, 12:59 AM	#6
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I would think the strength increase created by the insert would make the barrel super strong enuff... And the bolt face, breech face on most guns would most likely handle many rifle cartridge pressures... Brent

February 28, 2011, 09:04 AM	#8
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Remember though as well, many 20 gauge frames are used to build African double guns of the 300 and 375 H&H variety. Browning used to offer their Centennial set - 20 gauge barrels and 30-06 barrels with one action/receiver. Had a chance to buy one years ago - not getting it - ANOTHER of my 20-20 hindsight errors........

February 28, 2011, 05:38 PM	#10
Recoiljunky Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2011 Location: Jupiter, florida Posts: 233	I think I might order the 45acp one and post a review on it when I get it this should be interesting

February 28, 2011, 11:37 PM	#12
macsters Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2011 Posts: 119	i would be getting the 10 or 18 inch version. probably in 30-30. im assuming accuracy would be better than a 2.5 inch version. the concern about accuracy was more about closeness of fit inside the barrel. if the insert has room to wiggle, accuracy will suffer, probably significantly. the action is a little bit of a concern though. most 20ga ammo, even slugs, are at 12 kpsi. the 30-30 round is at 40 kpsi, max 50. i could go with a chambering in a smaller round like 9mm, but i was hoping to use it for hogs. what model are you using your inserts in, darkgael?

March 1, 2011, 03:52 AM	#13
Ryder Senior Member Join Date: March 2, 2002 Location: Michigan Posts: 222	I had a chamber insert for the 30-30 rifle that allowed me to fire 32acp. This allowed me to shoot small game without vaporizing the animal. The neck of the insert cracked on the first shot but it never got worse on following shots so I continued using it. It performed its intended purpose very well but I never ran more than a single box of ammo through it.

March 1, 2011, 02:31 PM	#15
Rugerismisticness Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2010 Posts: 909	I'd be worried that with such a short barrel and increased pressures, erosion would be likely to occur where the conversion ends.

March 2, 2011, 02:45 AM	#16
macsters Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2011 Posts: 119	couple things pete: can you confirm that you used .44 mag in one of these? is that the highest pressure round you have used? also, what are the inserts made out of? i.e., is scratching/scraping the inside of your barrel a concern? and how well do they fit in the bore? is it a very tight fit? or is their "play"? at this point, my thinking is this. pete was able to safely use inserts for rounds up to .44 magnum. the max pressure there is 36 KSI. .30-30 is slightly more than that, so if I were to do this i would have to be prepared to destroy the action of the gun (as pointed out by zippy13) and possibly injure myself. The accuracy, as noted by pete, is decent at best. I think the inserts might be capable of good accuracy if mounted on something sturdy, but the fact that they are inside a tube which may or may not fit them perfectly raises serious accuracy concerns. another concern, as noted by rugerismisticness, is that the sudden sideways movement of expanding gas as it exits the end of the insert but is still within the shotgun barrel will cause erosion. my concern wouldnt be erosion, but LOTS of carbon deposits to clean. basically, what i would end up with is a cool toy. not something useful. im thinking i will call the manufacturers and talk to them for a little while, and unless i get extremely positive vibes from them, i think it would be a no-go. maybe get an insert in .22 hornet for general plinking fun. recoiljunky: you should definitely do that. if you get the longer insert, i would be interested in the insert's tightness in the bore of your gun and its accuracy.

March 2, 2011, 05:37 AM	#17
Rugerismisticness Senior Member Join Date: December 22, 2010 Posts: 909	Shotgun barrels are all sorts of different widths, this guy sounds like a gunsmith with a good idea. I think the way to do it might be to send your barrel in, the guy makes an adapter custom to fit your shotgun (note the wait times on the website, he makes them to order, meaning that they might be individually fitted for each gun). I don't quite like the sound of this anymore, too much work. I'd rather just use a .22rifle and a shotgun seperatly.

March 2, 2011, 11:00 AM	#19
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	We are trying to equate apples and oranges! There are two different types of sub-cartridge adapters: One type is like a shorter version of a conventional shotgun tube, and is inserted in the bore of a break-open shotgun. It's essentially a single (or double) short. With the other type, the adapter is shaped like a shotgun or rifle cartridge. Its barrel is significantly shorter; but, you can use as many adapters as your magazine (and wallet) can accommodate. The adapters from the OP's reference, MCA Sports/Ace Bullet, seem to be of both types. Their 2-3/4" adapters may cycle in pump guns, while their 10 and 18" versions are for break-open guns.