selling reloaded ammo - Page 2

**Unclenick** · March 18, 2013, 03:02 PM

Note that the exact same thread question was started a few hours earlier. Too late to merge them now without causing confusion, but I'll suggest you read the other one before replying to this one as your intended contribution may already have been made there.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=519962

**Mike Irwin** · March 18, 2013, 03:29 PM

Uh, Nick?

Your link simply opens another copy of THIS thread.

**Unclenick** · March 18, 2013, 03:32 PM

Oops. Fixed! Must have lost track of where I was surfing.

oldgunsmith · March 19, 2013, 04:57 PM

When I load .223 it's for one of 4 guns.. A Mini-14, a Sako, an H&R Handi Rifle, or a Contender. They do NOT get the same loads. I was never comfortable loading for a gun I'm not personally familiar with.

Rifleman1776 · March 20, 2013, 08:45 AM

If a stranger asked me to sell him ammo the reply would be an automatic "no".
Even if the transaction was technically not illegal the cost of defense is incredible. Just not worth the chance.
If a friend asked I would help him out.

maillemaker · March 20, 2013, 03:02 PM

To me, even if I could sell some and feel confident about it not being considered "livelihood and profitable", I would be more concerned about the liability that comes with either a squib or overcharged load.

Maybe if I had a 6-stage press with a powder cop I would be more confident in the ammo I produce. But with my little 3-stager, I'm one mistake away from disaster.

I wouldn't risk blowing up someone else's gun or injuring them.

Steve

eldermike · March 20, 2013, 03:24 PM

If it's a neighbor just have him/her pull the handle and it's not you doing the reloading. If it's a friend or you want to make a friend have them help and it's not your reloads. I will not reload for other people but I will reload with other people.

oldmanFCSA · March 21, 2013, 08:30 AM

I teach reloading for FREE.
I allow students to load ammo under my direct supervision.
I rent out my equipment to select persons.

I only ask for a DONATION to cover cost of components and a "tip" to help cover cost of equipment and heat for the shop.

Is any of this ILLEGAL ??

I teach single-stage only and stress on SAFETY.

BigJimP · March 21, 2013, 11:04 AM

I'm not sure if its illegal...

.....but you sure as heck have a "liability" risk ...and in most cases, your homeowners liability insurance will not give you any protection....because its "a business interest" ...and whether you make a profit or not ( or ask for donations ) is probably irrelevent....

schmellba99 · March 22, 2013, 11:02 AM

Every time a thread like this comes up, I am reminded of how litigious our society has become, and how overbearing our laws are.

I honestly think everybody is putting WAY too much thought into this subject, and has WAY too much fear of liability based on "what if".

**Unclenick** · March 22, 2013, 04:03 PM

It's relative to where you are and who and what you are dealing with. I remember that once, in the 1980's, I read that the Ohio county I lived in at the time, which had about 1% of the state's population, had as many medical malpractice suits filed in a week as the whole country of Canada did in a year. At that time Canada's population was about 2.5 times that of Ohio, so it worked out to close to 13,000 times more medical malpractice suits per capita. Obviously our doctors are not 13,000 times less competent than Canada's. With something like one lawyer for every two hundred and sixty people, lawsuits are just an industry in the U.S. Remember the catch-all battle cry: "It's not personal; it's just business."

oldmanFCSA,

A caution I'll bring up is that government considers tips to be income and have to be reported as such to the IRS. My concern with accepting tips for use of equipment is that because it constitutes income, it might in some way make you subject to some part of the ammunition manufacturing laws. I just don't know. So if you know someone who's an attorney, I'd ask. I've always let friends load on my gear and I've loaded on theirs when traveling and never gave it a thought. But in that instance no money is changing hands other than reimbursement of supplies (and maybe the odd bottle of whiskey for after dinner sipping; but that's unrelated, of course).

Gun clubs often own loading equipment for members to use, but then membership in a club is like being a shareholder to some extent, so it becomes a form of co-ownership. And then, most clubs also have some kind of liability insurance specific to firearms use that probably covers people reloading at the bench and so on.

Anyway, if you value your assets, I would ask an attorney. At the least, I would have an umbrella insurance policy on top of homeowner's insurance that covers liability in the amount of my net worth. And the NRA has instructor's insurance that would cover the umbrella's deductible (which is high).

pnolans · March 22, 2013, 05:19 PM

Just based on my personal experience, I would not want to have to hire a lawyer to argue that I'm not engaged in a business for profit.

My $0.02

CrustyFN · March 22, 2013, 06:09 PM

Quote:

While neither BATF or IRS has ever assigned a monetary value to livelihood, I think a good attorney could pretty much crush someone being charged with this on a number of fronts, including poverty-level income as defined by Health and Human Services.

Who wants to be the first to find out, not me? I also don't want to spend all the time reloading just to sell them for what I paid for the components.

pnolans · March 23, 2013, 06:56 PM

@crustyFN... both excellent points... I concur.

**Mike Irwin** · March 23, 2013, 10:42 PM

By the same token, any time you transport a firearm to your range and back you could be arrested on scurrilous charges and forced to defend yourself.

If someone is bound and determined to make your day miserable, they're going to do it.

timelinex · March 24, 2013, 01:01 AM

It's pretty clear, as long as your not doing it as a 'business' then you can sell your reloads. There is a big but though... The but is about
Liability.you still take on the liability if one of your reloads were bad. Then you can be sued. Even if you win, it's not a pleasant experience to defend yourself in court. So it should be perfectly legal, and most likely you will never have any problems. But just so you know it's always possible to be sued.

A pause for the COZ · March 24, 2013, 02:28 AM

Lots of good info here. Thanks Guys.

my quick answer is.... No dont do it.

Once you give some one ammo you made or sell it. They now hold your life in their hands.
You could have provided them with perfect reloads. None of that matters when they do something stupid.
If some thing bad happens for what ever reason, your going to be involved.
Any amount of money you could get is not worth the risk you are putting your self into.
If some one really wants reloads. They can come over and I will let them load them for themselves.

March 18, 2013, 03:02 PM	#26
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Note that the exact same thread question was started a few hours earlier. Too late to merge them now without causing confusion, but I'll suggest you read the other one before replying to this one as your intended contribution may already have been made there. http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=519962 __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle Last edited by Unclenick; March 18, 2013 at 03:31 PM.

March 18, 2013, 03:29 PM	#27
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	Uh, Nick? Your link simply opens another copy of THIS thread. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 18, 2013, 03:32 PM	#28
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	Oops. Fixed! Must have lost track of where I was surfing. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 21, 2013, 08:30 AM	#33
oldmanFCSA Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2010 Location: WISCONSIN Posts: 283	Question = Donation I teach reloading for FREE. I allow students to load ammo under my direct supervision. I rent out my equipment to select persons. I only ask for a DONATION to cover cost of components and a "tip" to help cover cost of equipment and heat for the shop. Is any of this ILLEGAL ?? I teach single-stage only and stress on SAFETY. __________________ OldmanFCSA = "Oldman" at www.fcsa.org FCSA Member, SCSA Member, NRA Member, & AMA Member "Oldage & Treachery will overcome Youth & Skill"

March 22, 2013, 04:03 PM	#36
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,060	It's relative to where you are and who and what you are dealing with. I remember that once, in the 1980's, I read that the Ohio county I lived in at the time, which had about 1% of the state's population, had as many medical malpractice suits filed in a week as the whole country of Canada did in a year. At that time Canada's population was about 2.5 times that of Ohio, so it worked out to close to 13,000 times more medical malpractice suits per capita. Obviously our doctors are not 13,000 times less competent than Canada's. With something like one lawyer for every two hundred and sixty people, lawsuits are just an industry in the U.S. Remember the catch-all battle cry: "It's not personal; it's just business." oldmanFCSA, A caution I'll bring up is that government considers tips to be income and have to be reported as such to the IRS. My concern with accepting tips for use of equipment is that because it constitutes income, it might in some way make you subject to some part of the ammunition manufacturing laws. I just don't know. So if you know someone who's an attorney, I'd ask. I've always let friends load on my gear and I've loaded on theirs when traveling and never gave it a thought. But in that instance no money is changing hands other than reimbursement of supplies (and maybe the odd bottle of whiskey for after dinner sipping; but that's unrelated, of course). Gun clubs often own loading equipment for members to use, but then membership in a club is like being a shareholder to some extent, so it becomes a form of co-ownership. And then, most clubs also have some kind of liability insurance specific to firearms use that probably covers people reloading at the bench and so on. Anyway, if you value your assets, I would ask an attorney. At the least, I would have an umbrella insurance policy on top of homeowner's insurance that covers liability in the amount of my net worth. And the NRA has instructor's insurance that would cover the umbrella's deductible (which is high). __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

March 19, 2013, 04:57 PM	#29
oldgunsmith Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2013 Posts: 278	When I load .223 it's for one of 4 guns.. A Mini-14, a Sako, an H&R Handi Rifle, or a Contender. They do NOT get the same loads. I was never comfortable loading for a gun I'm not personally familiar with.

March 20, 2013, 08:45 AM	#30
Rifleman1776 Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2010 Location: Arkansas Posts: 3,309	If a stranger asked me to sell him ammo the reply would be an automatic "no". Even if the transaction was technically not illegal the cost of defense is incredible. Just not worth the chance. If a friend asked I would help him out.

March 20, 2013, 03:02 PM	#31
maillemaker Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2010 Posts: 1,635	To me, even if I could sell some and feel confident about it not being considered "livelihood and profitable", I would be more concerned about the liability that comes with either a squib or overcharged load. Maybe if I had a 6-stage press with a powder cop I would be more confident in the ammo I produce. But with my little 3-stager, I'm one mistake away from disaster. I wouldn't risk blowing up someone else's gun or injuring them. Steve

March 20, 2013, 03:24 PM	#32
eldermike Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2013 Location: NC Posts: 545	If it's a neighbor just have him/her pull the handle and it's not you doing the reloading. If it's a friend or you want to make a friend have them help and it's not your reloads. I will not reload for other people but I will reload with other people.

March 21, 2013, 11:04 AM	#34
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	I'm not sure if its illegal... .....but you sure as heck have a "liability" risk ...and in most cases, your homeowners liability insurance will not give you any protection....because its "a business interest" ...and whether you make a profit or not ( or ask for donations ) is probably irrelevent....

March 22, 2013, 11:02 AM	#35
schmellba99 Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2008 Posts: 803	Every time a thread like this comes up, I am reminded of how litigious our society has become, and how overbearing our laws are. I honestly think everybody is putting WAY too much thought into this subject, and has WAY too much fear of liability based on "what if".

March 22, 2013, 05:19 PM	#37
pnolans Member Join Date: December 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 95	Just based on my personal experience, I would not want to have to hire a lawyer to argue that I'm not engaged in a business for profit. My $0.02 __________________ ”You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.” ~Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto "DUMP HICKENLOOPER".. my soon to come bumper sticker.

March 23, 2013, 06:56 PM	#39
pnolans Member Join Date: December 7, 2011 Location: Colorado Springs, CO Posts: 95	@crustyFN... both excellent points... I concur. __________________ ”You cannot invade the mainland United States. There would be a rifle behind each blade of grass.” ~Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto "DUMP HICKENLOOPER".. my soon to come bumper sticker.

March 23, 2013, 10:42 PM	#40
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,380	By the same token, any time you transport a firearm to your range and back you could be arrested on scurrilous charges and forced to defend yourself. If someone is bound and determined to make your day miserable, they're going to do it. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

March 24, 2013, 01:01 AM	#41
timelinex Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2011 Posts: 231	It's pretty clear, as long as your not doing it as a 'business' then you can sell your reloads. There is a big but though... The but is about Liability.you still take on the liability if one of your reloads were bad. Then you can be sued. Even if you win, it's not a pleasant experience to defend yourself in court. So it should be perfectly legal, and most likely you will never have any problems. But just so you know it's always possible to be sued.

March 24, 2013, 02:28 AM	#42
A pause for the COZ Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2012 Location: Braham, Minnesota Posts: 1,314	Lots of good info here. Thanks Guys. my quick answer is.... No dont do it. Once you give some one ammo you made or sell it. They now hold your life in their hands. You could have provided them with perfect reloads. None of that matters when they do something stupid. If some thing bad happens for what ever reason, your going to be involved. Any amount of money you could get is not worth the risk you are putting your self into. If some one really wants reloads. They can come over and I will let them load them for themselves. Last edited by A pause for the COZ; March 24, 2013 at 02:36 AM.