Casing Blew Apart (Help Please) Pictures - Page 2

joedjr · May 14, 2009, 05:34 PM

Quote (i still think 5.8 grains would have been a good start load.) Quote

Not according to the Speer #14 which says the start is 6.0 and max 6.7. I wouldn't want to undercharge either.

FlyFish · May 14, 2009, 05:36 PM

I'm another one of those who has used Unique in a variety of loads with a variety of powder measures (RCBS, Redding, Hornady, and a MEC shotshell press) for a few decades with no problems. That said, any large flake powder can present metering problems and being extra careful is never a bad idea with anything related to reloading.

FWIW, my standard plinking load for my Sigs in .40 S&W is 5.5 gr of Unique under a 180 gr cast lead bullet. Shoots to where the guns point, is reasonably accurate, cycles the Sigs every time, and is pleasant to shoot.

zxcvbob · May 14, 2009, 06:27 PM

If I loaded .40SW -- I don't -- I would seriously look at WSF powder. It behaves just like Herco (a little slower than Unique) but it meters like 231.

Kendo · May 14, 2009, 08:23 PM

Joe I apologize for bein wrong about the 6 grains not filling the case 2/3 of the way. After seein the pictures from fly fish's post. Man those flakes are huge. I told ya the pro's would be along shortly. By the way welcome to the forum.You couldn't have landed at a better place for info. Alot of these cats are pretty sharp.

Sport45 · May 14, 2009, 08:40 PM

The OP never said this was his starting load and we don't know how he worked up to it. A double charge would have certainly been noticed.

It's only a guess, but I believe there's a good chance setback is the culprit for the increased pressure. I also wonder if the gun didn't fire a little out of battery to cause the case failure. I thought the 96FS has more case support than is indicated by the brass remains.

tiberius10721 · May 14, 2009, 08:43 PM

I apologize also about thinking 6.5 grains would not fill 2/3 of a case.those are good pictures you posted.

wingman · May 14, 2009, 09:17 PM

Setback with near max loads in the 40 is a no no.

Doby45 · May 14, 2009, 09:18 PM

Dang, if I was unintelligent and brandnew to this stuff I would run and sell all my 40cal weapons and reloading equipment. The skirt blowers need to settle down with the whole "Stay away from 40cal cause it is "Th3 D3aTh!"

Edward429451 · May 14, 2009, 09:48 PM

Who uses a measure at 2-10ths away from max?
Who start a load 2-10ths away from max?
Who wont look at the pressure range of the cartridge they load for?
Who then tops it with a heavy for caliber bullet...

Oh my God!

Impatient people.

I've been loading with Unique for over 25 years and never KB'd. The fact is, Unique measures real good at lighter load levels and not so good at max!

tiberius10721 · May 14, 2009, 10:31 PM

this is from my 1996 edition of modern reloading by Richard Lee that I consider gospel for me when it comes to reloading!A10 percent powder reduction decreases velocity only 8 percent.For a small loss of velocity you improve accuracy,reduce gun wear,and increase safety factor for extenuating circumstancesThings such as component variations,temperature,powder orientation,bullet depth,and crimp firmness will not likely increase pressures to a dangerous level.5 yrs ago when I first started reloading I read this manual front to back several times before I reloaded my first 38 special round.All new reloaders need to do this instead of going online for reloading data!

Teuthis · May 14, 2009, 11:42 PM

I have loaded with Unique for over 31 years; .357, 45 ACP, .380 and others. I have not had any problems with metering it. It makes accurate rounds, which would not be the case if it was not metering well. One must use a consistent throw with any powder to get accurate loads. That is part of the "art" of handloading, after you have done all the science.

If you are going to handload, you need to have a number of manuals, and loading data from various sources. You need to find a good starting point, with as many component matches as possible. And then you need to start at the low end and work up on your loads. That is axiomatic. Various bullets cause different pressure levels with the same powder. If you change bullets you must start at the bottom again and work up.

Also, some .40 caliber pistols on the market do not fully support the cases in the chambers. There are warnings out about that, and some manufacturers instruct loaders not to use their powders to load .40 caliber pistol rounds. All the more reason to start at the low end and carefully work up.

Any time a case separates, that is a sign of high pressure; at least higher pressure than the chamber supports. Perhaps more. So please be careful and get more loading data before you try to repeat those loads.

tmd11111 · May 14, 2009, 11:51 PM

If it had happened in a Glock this thread would be 12 pages long already...

Lunicy · May 15, 2009, 07:05 AM

Correct me if I'm wrong, cuz i'm no expert in KaBooms. But I have been reloading a bit. If it was a major overpressure, wouldn't the primer in the picture be mashed flat and practically smeared into the primer pocket?

IMHO It's bad brass. Again it's just a guess.

Been shooting with unique for a while. No problems. Other than it's dirty.

SL1 · May 15, 2009, 08:52 AM

Getting back to the pictures:

It does not look to me like the gun fired out-of-battery, because the case seems to be bulged only where the feed ramp cuts into the chamber, not all of the way around.

The primer looks like the round was pretty hot, but not up in the 60,000+ psi range. (S&W max is supposed to be 40,000 psi, so brass and gun should take a proof load at 1.3 x 40,000 psi = 52,000 psi.)

The questions I would ask are:

1. Could the brass case have been weak? How many times has it been fired? Is there typically a big buldge that needs to be sized out where the feed ramp does not support the case?

2. Could the bullet have been set-back during the auto-feed process? Have you fired a round to auto-load another round USING THIS LOT OF BRASS from the magazine, then ejected the second round and compared its COL to its COL before it was fed?

SL1

zxcvbob · May 15, 2009, 09:37 AM

Quote:

1. Could the brass case have been weak? How many times has it been fired? Is there typically a big buldge that needs to be sized out where the feed ramp does not support the case?

Ding ding ding! I think we have a winner. (I mentioned this yesterday, but didn't say it very well)

**Mike Irwin** · May 15, 2009, 10:37 AM

The way the case is deformed it looks almost as if it fired out of battery.

Hook686 · May 15, 2009, 12:19 PM

Yesterday, 02:09 PM #9

FlyFish wrote:

Quote:

I recognize the 2/3 full part isn't the crux of the issue here, but I had the technology (.40 cases, Unique powder, digital scale and digital camera), so I figured I'd go down to the reloading bench and get some data. Here's what 6.5 gr of Unique looks like in a .40 S&W case. I'd say about 2/3 full, maybe even a bit more, is about right.

Great picture. Is there any chance you can load a case with 6.7 grains of Unique (the maximum noted by the poster). Personally I think a visual check would show a serious overcharge of Unique. Plus, or minus .2 grains I do not see as a big deal, and certainly not something to have a head separation over.

DiscoRacing · May 15, 2009, 12:23 PM

Quote:

This is the main reason I have switched powder to Hodgdon's Titegroup

.....Right Don.... same here using 4.0 to 4.3 grains...excellent powder

gbcop · May 15, 2009, 01:01 PM

Joe,

I don't know about the Beretta's, but the only way my Sig P226 40 will function properly with 180grn bullet reloads with Unique is 6.5grains of powder. Haven't shot alot through it (about 1000rounds) but I haven't had any problems or any signs of high pressure. I don't know how particular you are about inspecting your cases. I purchased 250 rounds of used brass from a local gun shop and after cleaning them and resizing them I threw away probably 50 or so. Some had slight bulge, dents in the cases ect. With the high pressure this round operates at I don't take any chance of damaging my $600 gun for a $0.05 case.

woodysan · May 15, 2009, 02:06 PM

Well my LEE 2nd edition manual saya 180 gr. jacketed round says for Unique powder starting load 5.8 grs. never exceed 6.4c(c=Compressed charge) not sure what that means? Sounds like different books say different things,so be careful. I recently made a mistake so I can really relate to what you are saying. Take care, Woody

SL1 · May 15, 2009, 02:23 PM

Let's stop arguing about the load!

Speer's Manual #14 gives 6.0 grains start and 6.7 grains max for Unique with THIS BULLET seated to 1.120" COL. He was at 6.5 gr and 1.124" COL, and did NOT say that is where he started or that it was his first shot with that load. It does not matter what some other bullet maker's manual says the load is for THEIR bullets at ANOTHER COL, nor what Lee's manual says about some generic jacketed bullet at an unspecified COL.

One more question I should have mentioned in my previous post:

3. Is the case head as thick on the ruptured case as on the other cases?

I can't see that from the pictures, but a case that was made too deep might fail this way.

SL1

FlyFish · May 15, 2009, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Is there any chance you can load a case with 6.7 grains of Unique (the maximum noted by the poster). Personally I think a visual check would show a serious overcharge of Unique.

If I find a little spare time this evening I'll try to do it, but I really don't think you'll see much difference visually. In getting to the 6.5 gr load I overfilled the scale pan and worked down to 6.5 gr - at one point I had 6.7 gr in the pan and it was only a few flakes difference between that and 6.5 gr. But, I'll try to get the photo and let others judge for themselves.

FlyFish · May 15, 2009, 06:20 PM

Here's that photo of some different charge weights, as I promised:

And, yes, in case anyone's wondering - the cases are all the same headstamp (Winchester). I weighed the charges carefully, working up to them with a powder trickler, on a Pact digital scale, properly calibrated and verified with check weights. The 10 gr on the right is just for comparative purposes - DO NOT use that as a load.

Pretty scary, huh? In case anyone was ever tempted to duplicate a charge "by eye" I think this should be enough to disabuse them of the notion.

Maligator · May 15, 2009, 06:38 PM

Nice comparison photo FlyFish. It clearly illustrates the almost negligible difference in view of vastly different charges.

Thx for the pic!

murphjup · May 15, 2009, 07:14 PM

Very Great comparison picture...

May 14, 2009, 06:27 PM	#28
zxcvbob Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2007 Location: S.E. Minnesota Posts: 4,720	If I loaded .40SW -- I don't -- I would seriously look at WSF powder. It behaves just like Herco (a little slower than Unique) but it meters like 231. __________________ "Everything they do is so dramatic and flamboyant. It just makes me want to set myself on fire!" —Lucille Bluth

May 14, 2009, 08:40 PM	#30
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	The OP never said this was his starting load and we don't know how he worked up to it. A double charge would have certainly been noticed. It's only a guess, but I believe there's a good chance setback is the culprit for the increased pressure. I also wonder if the gun didn't fire a little out of battery to cause the case failure. I thought the 96FS has more case support than is indicated by the brass remains. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

May 14, 2009, 11:42 PM	#36
Teuthis Senior Member Join Date: April 9, 2008 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 537	I have loaded with Unique for over 31 years; .357, 45 ACP, .380 and others. I have not had any problems with metering it. It makes accurate rounds, which would not be the case if it was not metering well. One must use a consistent throw with any powder to get accurate loads. That is part of the "art" of handloading, after you have done all the science. If you are going to handload, you need to have a number of manuals, and loading data from various sources. You need to find a good starting point, with as many component matches as possible. And then you need to start at the low end and work up on your loads. That is axiomatic. Various bullets cause different pressure levels with the same powder. If you change bullets you must start at the bottom again and work up. Also, some .40 caliber pistols on the market do not fully support the cases in the chambers. There are warnings out about that, and some manufacturers instruct loaders not to use their powders to load .40 caliber pistol rounds. All the more reason to start at the low end and carefully work up. Any time a case separates, that is a sign of high pressure; at least higher pressure than the chamber supports. Perhaps more. So please be careful and get more loading data before you try to repeat those loads. __________________ Oderint dum Metuant

May 15, 2009, 10:37 AM	#41
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	The way the case is deformed it looks almost as if it fired out of battery. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

May 15, 2009, 02:06 PM	#45
woodysan Member Join Date: December 8, 2008 Location: Cocoa,FL Posts: 58	Load? Well my LEE 2nd edition manual saya 180 gr. jacketed round says for Unique powder starting load 5.8 grs. never exceed 6.4c(c=Compressed charge) not sure what that means? Sounds like different books say different things,so be careful. I recently made a mistake so I can really relate to what you are saying. Take care, Woody __________________ It's hard to make a comeback when you haven't been anywhere.

May 14, 2009, 05:34 PM	#26
joedjr Junior Member Join Date: May 14, 2009 Posts: 9	Quote (i still think 5.8 grains would have been a good start load.) Quote Not according to the Speer #14 which says the start is 6.0 and max 6.7. I wouldn't want to undercharge either.

May 14, 2009, 05:36 PM	#27
FlyFish Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Overlooking the Baker River Valley Posts: 1,723	I'm another one of those who has used Unique in a variety of loads with a variety of powder measures (RCBS, Redding, Hornady, and a MEC shotshell press) for a few decades with no problems. That said, any large flake powder can present metering problems and being extra careful is never a bad idea with anything related to reloading. FWIW, my standard plinking load for my Sigs in .40 S&W is 5.5 gr of Unique under a 180 gr cast lead bullet. Shoots to where the guns point, is reasonably accurate, cycles the Sigs every time, and is pleasant to shoot.

May 14, 2009, 08:23 PM	#29
Kendo Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2009 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 103	Joe I apologize for bein wrong about the 6 grains not filling the case 2/3 of the way. After seein the pictures from fly fish's post. Man those flakes are huge. I told ya the pro's would be along shortly. By the way welcome to the forum.You couldn't have landed at a better place for info. Alot of these cats are pretty sharp.

May 14, 2009, 08:43 PM	#31
tiberius10721 Junior member Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 228	I apologize also about thinking 6.5 grains would not fill 2/3 of a case.those are good pictures you posted.

May 14, 2009, 09:17 PM	#32
wingman Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2002 Posts: 2,108	Setback with near max loads in the 40 is a no no.

May 14, 2009, 09:18 PM	#33
Doby45 Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2009 Location: Powder Springs, GA Posts: 213	Dang, if I was unintelligent and brandnew to this stuff I would run and sell all my 40cal weapons and reloading equipment. The skirt blowers need to settle down with the whole "Stay away from 40cal cause it is "Th3 D3aTh!"

May 14, 2009, 09:48 PM	#34
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Who uses a measure at 2-10ths away from max? Who start a load 2-10ths away from max? Who wont look at the pressure range of the cartridge they load for? Who then tops it with a heavy for caliber bullet... Oh my God! Impatient people. I've been loading with Unique for over 25 years and never KB'd. The fact is, Unique measures real good at lighter load levels and not so good at max!

May 14, 2009, 10:31 PM	#35
tiberius10721 Junior member Join Date: December 22, 2008 Posts: 228	this is from my 1996 edition of modern reloading by Richard Lee that I consider gospel for me when it comes to reloading!A10 percent powder reduction decreases velocity only 8 percent.For a small loss of velocity you improve accuracy,reduce gun wear,and increase safety factor for extenuating circumstancesThings such as component variations,temperature,powder orientation,bullet depth,and crimp firmness will not likely increase pressures to a dangerous level.5 yrs ago when I first started reloading I read this manual front to back several times before I reloaded my first 38 special round.All new reloaders need to do this instead of going online for reloading data!

May 14, 2009, 11:51 PM	#37
tmd11111 Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2009 Location: San Angelo, Tx Posts: 275	If it had happened in a Glock this thread would be 12 pages long already...

May 15, 2009, 07:05 AM	#38
Lunicy Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Behind enemy lines, jersey shore Posts: 118	Correct me if I'm wrong, cuz i'm no expert in KaBooms. But I have been reloading a bit. If it was a major overpressure, wouldn't the primer in the picture be mashed flat and practically smeared into the primer pocket? IMHO It's bad brass. Again it's just a guess. Been shooting with unique for a while. No problems. Other than it's dirty.

May 15, 2009, 08:52 AM	#39
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Getting back to the pictures: It does not look to me like the gun fired out-of-battery, because the case seems to be bulged only where the feed ramp cuts into the chamber, not all of the way around. The primer looks like the round was pretty hot, but not up in the 60,000+ psi range. (S&W max is supposed to be 40,000 psi, so brass and gun should take a proof load at 1.3 x 40,000 psi = 52,000 psi.) The questions I would ask are: 1. Could the brass case have been weak? How many times has it been fired? Is there typically a big buldge that needs to be sized out where the feed ramp does not support the case? 2. Could the bullet have been set-back during the auto-feed process? Have you fired a round to auto-load another round USING THIS LOT OF BRASS from the magazine, then ejected the second round and compared its COL to its COL before it was fed? SL1

May 15, 2009, 01:01 PM	#44
gbcop Junior Member Join Date: May 7, 2009 Posts: 10	Joe, I don't know about the Beretta's, but the only way my Sig P226 40 will function properly with 180grn bullet reloads with Unique is 6.5grains of powder. Haven't shot alot through it (about 1000rounds) but I haven't had any problems or any signs of high pressure. I don't know how particular you are about inspecting your cases. I purchased 250 rounds of used brass from a local gun shop and after cleaning them and resizing them I threw away probably 50 or so. Some had slight bulge, dents in the cases ect. With the high pressure this round operates at I don't take any chance of damaging my $600 gun for a $0.05 case.

May 15, 2009, 02:23 PM	#46
SL1 Senior Member Join Date: November 8, 2007 Posts: 2,001	Let's stop arguing about the load! Speer's Manual #14 gives 6.0 grains start and 6.7 grains max for Unique with THIS BULLET seated to 1.120" COL. He was at 6.5 gr and 1.124" COL, and did NOT say that is where he started or that it was his first shot with that load. It does not matter what some other bullet maker's manual says the load is for THEIR bullets at ANOTHER COL, nor what Lee's manual says about some generic jacketed bullet at an unspecified COL. One more question I should have mentioned in my previous post: 3. Is the case head as thick on the ruptured case as on the other cases? I can't see that from the pictures, but a case that was made too deep might fail this way. SL1

May 15, 2009, 06:20 PM	#48
FlyFish Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2009 Location: Overlooking the Baker River Valley Posts: 1,723	Here's that photo of some different charge weights, as I promised: And, yes, in case anyone's wondering - the cases are all the same headstamp (Winchester). I weighed the charges carefully, working up to them with a powder trickler, on a Pact digital scale, properly calibrated and verified with check weights. The 10 gr on the right is just for comparative purposes - DO NOT use that as a load. Pretty scary, huh? In case anyone was ever tempted to duplicate a charge "by eye" I think this should be enough to disabuse them of the notion.

May 15, 2009, 06:38 PM	#49
Maligator Senior Member Join Date: March 30, 2009 Location: Michigan Posts: 124	Nice comparison photo FlyFish. It clearly illustrates the almost negligible difference in view of vastly different charges. Thx for the pic!

May 15, 2009, 07:14 PM	#50
murphjup Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2006 Location: Jupiter, Florida Posts: 460	Very Great comparison picture...