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March 5, 2009, 02:51 PM | #51 | |
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Oh, I know... My original point was that in SOME places you'd be in trouble. Oddly, my state is not (so far as I can tell) one of them. Only "in or upon the building or grounds of any school, college or university in the state without the written permission of the institution."
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March 5, 2009, 05:01 PM | #52 |
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I said: I am going to remain calm and do as I am told.
Careby asked: Would that go as far as surrendering your weapon to him or allowing him to search you for it? Answer: Did I say that? No, I said in a nutshell that I would do as I was told and try to keep a low profile. If I had no other choice then to draw my weapon then yes, I would defend myself. I really don't see a couple thugs taking the time to search everyone for weapons. Their goal is to get in the bank and out as quick as possible and if it does not involve violence towards me or any other innocent then I'll let them do as they please and Johnny Law can do the rest.
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March 5, 2009, 11:42 PM | #53 |
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I'd have watched him rob the bank because I have no interest in risking my life to protect the bank's money and even less interest in spending several thousand dollars in legal fees in order to protect the bank's money.
Now if I thought there was an immediate threat of death or serious injury to myself or someone else, then I guess you fight with what you've got and not what you wish you had. Although even there, my general thought is that if you don't care enough about your own life to arm yourself and get trained, why should I care enough to help you? Ditto Last edited by isanchez2008; March 5, 2009 at 11:42 PM. Reason: don't know how to quote :( |
March 20, 2009, 04:46 AM | #54 |
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Never put yourself in danger by trying to use your weapon, if you are in danger and feel that you can make the situation safer, by safely using your weapon....thats the right thing to do.
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March 20, 2009, 08:32 AM | #55 | |
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March 20, 2009, 09:46 AM | #56 |
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In that situation, it is entirly up to you; there is not right or wrong and no matter what, the only coward in that situation is the bank robber. It is impossible to say until you are in that situation, but I think I would comply until he leavled his weapon at myself or others, then I would engage threat.
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March 20, 2009, 09:51 AM | #57 |
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On the scenario, you've already gotten some great advice (except the whole "humping octopuses with Coke bottles" thing...why a bank robber would bring an octopus to a gunfight is beyond me... )
I can even go along with the ankle carry method. Sometimes, your required mode of dress doesn't allow for anything else...(though I may look hard at a Smartcarry-style holster...) But I am concerned with chamber-empty carry on your LCP. Why? Do you not have confidence in its safety features to trust it with a round in the pipe? If not, why not get a different gun....like a PPK or Bersa (w/ a safety)? I had the same "feelings" about Glocks until I learned more about them...unfortunately, not until I'd traded off a G17 w/ XO Big-Dot night sights.... ...but now I know better and may consider buying another one (if the price is right)....but fearing your carry gun is NEVER a good thing....learn to love it....or trade it for something you can love....
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March 20, 2009, 10:41 AM | #58 | ||
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1) I'm with the folks who say "If you don't have one in the chamber you are carrying a paperweight". If you don't trust your gun with one in the chamber then please get another gun. 2) If you are going to carry a lighter caliber for self defense then you MUST train with it on a regular basis because you will have even less "fault tolerance" when it comes to shot placement. You should also consider and practice some ways to draw from your ankle so that it is also a well rehearsed maneuver. 3) I think that a robber who has shown his weapon, and discharged it, constitutes a clear and present danger. "Means, Motive, and Opportunity" have all been met and it's no longer about property, it's about he lives and safety of everyone present. At the same time I think that if the weapon isn't pointed at you then you should pause long enough to review the entire situation because..... 4) (as we learned in training) You must allways, Allways, ALWAYS, assume that there are more criminals than the one you see. Far too many good guys get plugged by the "backup men" (or woman) because they focus too tightly on the high profile criminal in front of them. 5) On one hand we have the "driving forces", namely that we want to stop the threat, we don't want to feel cowardly, etc. On the other side we have the "quelling forces" which are the normal resistance to taking human life, the concern over personal injury, fear of lawsuit, and so forth. The dynamics of these two forces are situation specific and unfortunately the only person who can deal with them is the person on the spot at the time the event happens. Your best bet is to do just what you are doing, namely consider the options and the consequences and create a few general "game plans" in the (Maker Forbid!) event something does happen. That greatly reduces the chances that what you will do is simply freeze (though that is still and always a possibility). |
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March 20, 2009, 11:24 AM | #59 |
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as an LEO in my area of illinois, we are taught that, say i am off duty, observe and be a great witness is preferred to our drawing our off duty weapon and engaging a target.
that said, with the robber walking in and putting one in the ceiling, he has indeed, at least by illinois law, already used deadly force and we are totally in our rights to engage and kill that person. but is it in our best decision to do so? where is everyone standing in relation to this fella? did they drop and cover or stand in between the perp and me, frozen solid? situational awareness is key, and hindsight is 20/20. i think that the majority agrees that the observe and be a great witness is the best road. but it's not the only one, and since none of us was there, all the other roads are definitely an option, but we will never know which is the right road until we are in that situation. all that said, like previously mentioned, the op needs to rethink his carry options. the issues have all pretty much been addressed, so i won't ramble on anymore. and let's hope none of us has to ever pull our weapon in defense, but pray we can and will when the time might come. |
March 20, 2009, 11:54 AM | #60 |
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We had an off duty officer with his wife and child in a store when it was held up. The officer pulled down on the suspect outside and was holding him at bay when the BG accomplice walked up behind him and put one in his head. If your going to act watch your six.
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March 20, 2009, 12:05 PM | #61 |
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I would lay low, if possible get my gun in a postition where I could immiatley fire it. As for .380 not being enough gun, unless he was extremely intoxicated, or, as many bank robbers do, wearing body armor, I think 2 or 3 rounds of .380 would drop him. If he started shooting at people. I personally would shoot him until he stopped moving completley, no matter how many rounds it took. When the cops ask, just tell them you were trying to "deescalate the threat as quickly as possible to prevent anyone else from getting hurt"
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March 20, 2009, 01:55 PM | #62 |
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When is a deadly threat not quite a deadly threat?
There are many tangent issues to explore, but I'm focused only on the action most likely to have everyone present going home alive. (Well, not the BG but he's already made his choices...) Being in a bank while a BG holds up the teller is not the same thing as having a gun pointed directly at you or your family. In the latter, there is no question of an immediate deadly threat. I don't disagree that presenting a gun, shooting the ceiling, and holding up a teller is a deadly threat to the teller - but maybe not so much to you. Judgment should prevail, if thinking capacity hasn't been frozen on the spot. Drawing down on the BG may very well increase the likelihood of one or more people dying that day. Even you.
As you mull the scenario, remember you're not Ahnold or Bruce Willis and that your body will actually bleed if you get shot. Also that without a script, anything less than instantaneous kill (ie.,fatal headshot) on the BG may well get the teller and other employees or clients - including you - shot or killed by the BG. The teller will be cooperating - every bank in America trains their employees regularly to follow orders, give the money away, not even to push the alarm until safe to do so. Since it's clear the CCW doesn't confer vigilante or LEO status, you're confined to acting to prevent a deadly threat (or various state-by-state slight variations of the theme), not to stop crimes or rescue the fair maiden. So what do you do? As presented, i submit this scenario calls for watch, wait, and be ready. First, carry a gun that shoots straight and hits hard - the .380 may well do so. Hornady Critical Defense, or Federal Hydra-Shok are two examples of fine expanding, penetrating rounds, even in .380. I like a bigger gun, 4" or longer barrel and minimum 9mm, but that's a preference thing as long as you're proficient with yours. ALWAYS have a round chambered and choose a double action gun so you can just draw, unsafe and get off the first shot without racking a slide or cocking a hammer. An extra mag or two, or a few speedloaders is mandatory. Never want your gun to go hungry, especially if someone is shooting at you. Personally I prefer autos for SD, due to mag capacity, reload speed, and rapid fire in single action. In the instance described, i think discreetly drawing and continuing to conceal your gun is most definitely a good idea, if you can. Comply, to the extent it doesn't compromise your ability to shoot if the threat shifts to you or becomes deadly. Like the LEO said, get details and be a good witness. If nobody is being shot, stay cool. You may still get to play hero. If he shoots someone or starts blasting randomly, all bets are off. Time to shoot until the threat is eliminated. And watch your backside for his partner. Someone said bank robbers rarely have a partner - but they also rarely display a gun. Be ready for anything. Remember - Shoot. Move. Live.
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March 20, 2009, 04:24 PM | #63 | |
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You make some good points but I'm going to contest one.
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Don't take my word for it, seek out some of the research that has been done on the matter. If you aren't ready to move then don't do anything. If you decide to draw you'd best be ready mentally and physically to go full bore from that point forward because it's very likely that you'll trigger a response. |
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March 20, 2009, 04:55 PM | #64 |
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I'd say it's better to get a look at his face to describe him to the police and not draw unless he starts showing real intent to shoot people.
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March 20, 2009, 05:33 PM | #65 |
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Even as an off duty LEO, I've asked myself this question and have come up with the following answer.
If I can access my weapon without being noticed, I'll do it but engaging the BG will be a last resort option. If the guy is bent on robbing the bank, I'll cooperate as far as possible, get a good description, prepare to follow him out (If I have to engage, I'd rather not do it in a bank full of civilians) and call in description to the PD ASAP as soon as he exits. Now, if it appears that it is more then a simple robbery and the BG's are lining folks up and shooting them...well, at that point, it's game on as there is really nothing to lose and if I don't act, someone (maybe me) is definately going to get killed. Most bank robbers (in my area at least) are non confrontational. They generally walk in, hand the teller a note, get the money and walk out. Some times, other customers are not even aware of the robbery. In the case where the guy comes in and fires a round right off the bat, I still think I'd keep a low profile, try and access my weapon and have it ready in the event he ups the anty and starts wacking customers. I'd try and start making a mental plan in the event I have to engage him while getting a good description. Let him get the money and be a good witness. Everybody else will probably be freaked out and good descriptions will be hard to come by until the video is pulled. The more accurate information the cops get out to responding units in a timely manner, the better the chance will be that he gets caught. |
March 20, 2009, 11:33 PM | #66 | ||
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March 21, 2009, 04:27 PM | #67 | |
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March 21, 2009, 07:29 PM | #68 |
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There have been many threads where the advantages and disadvantages of carrying chamber empty have been hashed out in pretty good detail. Try doing a search in this forum and you should have plenty to consider.
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March 21, 2009, 07:55 PM | #69 |
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By octopus humpin' a coke bottle I mean physically scrappin' for my life...
And I do not carry a firearm typically but have in the past. I don't dress for concealed carry. But armed with a firearm or not I just don't know how to comply with violent punks. Brent |
March 21, 2009, 10:03 PM | #70 |
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David,
I was specifically interested in your take on things. Not to put you on the spot but it seems that we have a very different view on things and I try to see the other side in case I'm being short sighted. For me, I consider carrying a self-defense weapon empty chambered the equal of driving a car around with no safety belt and thinking you'll always be able to clip it on in time. There are an awful lot of self-defense situations that either involve contact-distance or some other circumstance that could very possibly tie up your non-gun hand, say fending off the bad-guy, shoving a loved one out of the way or behind you, or trying to open a door or something to create an avenue of escape. In my book that is no time to need both hands in order to get your firearm functional so I consider empty chamber tactically unsound. Last edited by ZeSpectre; March 21, 2009 at 10:12 PM. |
March 21, 2009, 11:11 PM | #71 |
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BigBill,
Ditto on most of the posts: -Carry w/ one in chamber. -Ankle carry as primary? -Don't be a hero. -Practice w/ primary weapon. .380 loaded w/ quality hollowpoints is a whole lot better than nothing. SP101 in IWB is weighty and bulky and you may find yourself not carrying as often (short trip to grocery, bank, pizza run). P3AT or LCP can ALWAYS be on you! These handguns have the same safety feature a revolver does----DAO with stiff trigger. Safeties almost always have an audible click and safety should be undone while drawing, not when aiming----it's just something else to remember in a severe crisis. Minimize steps in bad situations---pull, point, fire, repeat third step until threat is over. Oh, by the way, I don't believe the LCP has a lock-back at the end of a magazine, so either count your shots or be prepared to rack the slide again, after getting another mag and inserting it. Practice, practice, practice!! With a snap cap and timer, see how long it takes you to start (using your normal carry mode) and fire your weapon. With a .380, fire, fire, fire, run for cover and reassess. Of course, if you had a .45, then fire once and be done with the whole mess! You could also practice by putting your cell phone at your normal carry spot and have a friend call you randomly (different/short/rapid ring tone) and see how fast you can answer it. (just don't do that too often, otherwise you may put your handgun to your ear when you hear your phone ring!) |
March 22, 2009, 12:40 AM | #72 |
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.380acp not my choice, but if your confident with it then more power to you.
I would not be carrying my primary gun in an ankle holster, but I don't know the OP's situation. I do believe that not having a round in the chamber could be a recipe for disaster for alot of reasons that have been hashed out too many times before. With that being said, I think I would try to comply, but I will not stand by while the BG is shooting people. Maybe some people on this forum have walked into their bank, and while standing in line, thought about what they would do personally if this situation was presented to them. My bank is small, almost always busy, and have roped aisle ways making quick movement almost impossible. There are offices on either side of the bank, and the tellers are not protected by bullet prooof glass as they were at my old bank. This all becomes a factor, and that day their might be even more variables we didn't think would happen. All of this would probably make me not shoot unless absolutely necessary. Situational awareness is key if you want to be a good witness, or if you decide to shoot. Looking for cover, preferably some where a person can't get to you from behind. If the guy comes in shooting and everyone else hits the ground except for one guy standing near the door, then he may be the gunman's partner. He could also just be a customer who is frozen solid. All of these variables have to be accounted for, which is why I think I would comply unless deadly force was the only option left. |
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March 22, 2009, 12:55 PM | #74 | ||
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March 22, 2009, 02:14 PM | #75 | ||
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