Sierra MKs for hunting Part 2

[wileybelch]

Refer to the earlier thread for preliminary responses. I'm especially thankful for reynolds357 and JohnKSa's input. Personally, I favor reynolds thoughts. However, if you like conspiracy theories, here's another log on the fire. I agree that Sierra has published their disclaimer about hunting with MatchKings for decades. I just can't believe that many decades ago (maybe as far back as their setup in California) they didn't do 'research' on the terminal ballistics of their MatchKings. The results may have been noteworthy to the hunting community but because of marketing or production or legal or something else reasons, Sierra decided to create the GameKing product. Any 'research' they might have done is a corporate secret.
My original query came partly from the observation of thousands of MKs found in the butts of HiPower competition ranges. Their 'terminal performance' seen there (in the butts) just made me wonder about game performance. Thus, I opened the original thread. It made me wonder if my supply of competition bullets may offer field use, too, and thereby reduce my inventory of 'hunting specific' bullets (especially in this period of short supply). When was the last time you saw a box of 180gr GKs on the shelf?
I hope we can get some more responses on this topic.

[Mobuck]

Nothing scientific but here's what I saw with my own eyes using a .308 with "match" type bullets:
medium sized whitetail buck nearly head-on @ 100 yards, struck inside left shoulder, 3 ribs hit on entry, bullet literally exploded inside chest cavity, instant DRT
medium sized buck, broadside presentation @ 200 yards, struck low in chest(heart area), likely didn't hit bone, pass through with very little blood, deer escaped into tall grass swamp, was found 30 days later
coyote broadside @ 350 yards, struck right ribs and exited left shoulder, escaped packing left fore leg, crawled into brushpile and lost
coyote broadside @ 350 yards, struck high shoulder /spine, no expansion apparent, DRT
bobcat broadside @ 240 yards, struck front edge of left shoulder/spine, no expansion apparent, DRT
This performance is far too erratic(compared to more suitable bullets) to recommend for general use on game. The only incidents of acceptable killing effect involved strikes on/near the spine or impact on bone at fairly close range.

[jmr40]

I don't know specifically about hunting with the Sierra target bullets. But I read a lot of posts from very successful hunters using Scenars. At one time there were a lot of vocal Berger shooters. Enough that Berger slightly modified their target bullet and came out with a version designed for hunting. I've read a lot of posts from people who swear by some of the Hornady target bullets for hunting. There are people who do it, many successfully.

I simply don't recall reading any comments concerning Sierria's. Personally I don't have any trouble finding suitable hunting bullets. I don't limit myself to one brand. I have bullets from Nosler, Hornady, Barnes, Berger, and Speer on my loading bench right now. While I think they would "Probably" work, I'm not willing to try them when I have so many other better options.

If you are comfortable with it, then go for it.

[shadowviper]

This horse has been beat to death. Do what you want, but don't expect us to justify for you. Its also illegal to use non-expanding bullets for hunting in many if not most states.

I don't know why you decided to start this p****** match again.

[reynolds357]

The Match King expands very well. Anyone who does not believe the Match King is a very potent hunting bullet has obviously not hunted with it. There is a video in another thread of a tipped Match King being shot into Ballistic Gelatin. It obviously expanded. Unless you are shooting the Match King extremely too slow, it will expand. The things are grenades if you get them into their performance range.

[mikejonestkd]

Its simple, inexpensive and easy to use a bullet designed for hunting. Why would you choose a product that is not specifically designed for terminal performance?

In NYS it a violation of hunting regs to use a SMK for big game hunting.

[reynolds357]

The Match King is an awesome hunting bullet regardless of what it was designed for. Plain and simple, Sierra is not going to say it is good for hunting or tested for terminal performance. If they did, they would immediately lose their military sales of the bullet. It amazes me how many people know everything about how the Match King performs on large game, considering they have never shot large game with it. It is not a conspiracy as some have suggested. It is just simple business math. To say the Match King is not "consistent" is simply hilarious. It is probably the most consistent production bullet ever made.

[Catfish]

I don`t have any experience with or personal knowledge of the performance of the larger cal. match bullets on big game, but I can tell you that the 22 cal match bullets when pushed to the top of the recommend velocity range sure make big holes in varmints.

[jimbob86]

It obviously expanded. Unless you are shooting the Match King extremely too slow, it will expand. The things are grenades if you get them into their performance range.

Just what is their "performance range"?

ANY bullet works, sometimes, if all the conditions are right ..... just as you can drive a nail with a banana if it's frozen solid enough and the nail is not and the board you are driving it into is not too hard .....

While I can not convince any of the guys that insist they are smarter than everybody because they know more than the maker of the product in question ..... for everybody else: Why would you use a target bullet when there are bullets designed for the task at hand readily available .... with published load data including velocity "performance ranges". A box of 100 Game Kings is less than 2 boxes of El-Cheapo factory ammo ..... if you can't make a load as accurate (and with more predictable terminal performance) than what you worked up with the SMK's ..... well, maybe you are not trying all that hard ..... there's always premium factory ammo.

[reynolds357]

I can not convince some of you that Sierra has an enormous financial reason to not market the Match King as a hunting bullet.

Why would I use a target bullet? I think the better question would be "Why would I use anything but the best?".

[jmr40]

Sierra is not going to say it is good for hunting or tested for terminal performance. If they did, they would immediately lose their military sales of the bullet.

I doubt if that would have anything to do with military sales. But you are at least partially right. Just because a certain bullet is not designed as a hunting bullet does not mean it won't expand and work for hunting. Once again, I simply don't know about Sierra, but I do know that a lot of people have experimented with other target bullets and found them to work as well, if not better than some bullets designed for hunting.

On the other hand, it is not something I'm personally willing to try until the manufacturer recommends so. If Sierra really wanted to market the SMK for hunting they could do exactly what Berger did. Shooters found that their match bullets worked just fine on game. Bergers testing confirmed this. Berger tweaked the design just a hair, put them in a different colored box and labeled some hunting bullets and others target bullets. There probably isn't a bit of difference, but I'm willing to try their hunting bullets on game because the manufacturers testing proved it would work. Until Sierra does the same I wouldn't use them. I got better results with Bergers anyway.

[reynolds357]

JMR, they would lose their sales. Reason being is that military ammo can not intentionally inflict undue human suffering. A bullet designed as a hunting bullet or marketed as a hunting bullet would absolutely fail that criteria.

[jimbob86]

Mr. reynolds, the question still stands:

Just what is their "performance range"?

[HiBC]

I do not have a Starrett catalogue handy.Do they still make C-Clamps?I know they make parallel clamps.They get the $ for them,too.That is the dirty secret when they tell you using a Starrett micrometer for a C-clamp is a bad idea.
WellI use the best,and I'm here to tell you a Starrett Micrometer makes a dang good C-clamp.If you argue with me,just means you never used a Starrett Micrometer for a C-clamp.I have,hundreds,thousands of times!!Those nice carbide faces come together parallel!!And with that friction thimble you can clamp real uniform..unless you want to twist her down a bit.They got that little lock on em...Nice!!

They don't want everyone to know! SSHHHH! Its our secret!


You know...I was wondering...one shot,one kill...rules of engagement,get permission for each shot or go to Leavenworth..even though I realize every bar in America has at least three resident ex-Navy Seal snipers in it ;how many VW microbuses of Sierra MK sniper bullets actually get fired under Geneva Convention rules?

I understand the EPA,Dept of Ed,Dept of Ag,etc each has to have 9 billion rounds of everything.... but to shoot us,I'm pretty sure Geneva Convention does not apply.I'm thinking they could use Ballistic Tips.The 40 S+W is hollow point.

And..gee,I can't remember this very well,but there was a comparison of the deer hunters of Wisconsin,as a body of armed people,rivaled some of the largest armies in the world??
SO...maybe the hunting bullet market is bigger than the Military MK Sniper market?
The idea of using the MK because its the best assumes Quality,yes?

In my experience,without a foundation of INTEGRITY,Quality will be short lived.In large part Sierra's reputation and credibility are key to its longevity.

Consistent with that foundation of integrity would be an ethic around the humane aspects of hunting bullet performance.Could be,just maybe could be..at Sierra Bullets there are people of principle who care?

The ego projection of a conspiracy insults and impugns the reputation of the very bullet company you claim delivers you "The Best"

The needle on my BS indicator is not pointing at Sierra.

[JohnKSa]

I can not convince some of you that Sierra has an enormous financial reason to not market the Match King as a hunting bullet.

There's a good reason you can't convince people. That theory will never convince anyone who knows the facts and can logically examine them. It is a complete load of crap.

1. The U.S. didn't adopt the Sierra MatchKing bullets for sniping until 1985. If the theory held any water at all, there would have been zero reason for the GameKing line to exist prior to that point. In fact, GameKing bullets were available in the 1970s, years before the military was even considering using the MatchKing line for sniping.

2. If the theory were true, there would be no reason to differentiate between the GameKing and the MatchKing bullets in calibers that are not used by the military. It's simple to verify that there are GameKing bullets available in calibers that have never been and never will be used for sniping.

3. If the theory were true then Sierra could simply relabel MatchKing bullets--perhaps alter them cosmetically--and sell them as GameKing bullets and nobody would be the wiser. They could use one of the high-tech coatings on the bullet (like the black coating Winchester puts on some of their bullets) to make them appear very different. It's simple to verify that is not the case. The GameKing bullets clearly differ from the MatchKing bullets in construction and often they aren't available in matching bullet weights.

4. If the theory were true, then any changes made to the specific MatchKing bullets that are used for sniping would eliminate all need for a coverup. It would be sufficient for Sierra to point out the fact that in the mid-1990s, the specific MatchKing bullets used by the U.S. military were altered by Sierra in cooperation with the military to meet the military's specific requirements. Being able to accurately point out that those bullets are not the original MatchKing design but are specialized designs made to accommodate the military would effectively dismiss any concerns about violating ammunition conventions.

5. Finally, it is a complicated explanation for a very simple question that has been given a very simple answer by the manufacturer. An answer which is supported by the available facts and logic. When the facts and logic support a very simple answer, there's no reason to go looking for a complicated one.

So if we are to believe the theory, we must accept that Sierra anticipated the use of their MatchKing line for sniping by many years and introduced the GameKing line as a cover story just in case the MatchKings were ever adopted by the military.

We must further accept that to make this cover story airtight, Sierra also introduced GameKing bullets in calibers that have nothing to do with sniping and again did so years before the military was considering using MatchKing bullets for sniping.

We must also accept that Sierra then went to the additional trouble to make the two bullet lines different by altering construction and bullet weights even when they could have very easily made other, simpler, much less costly changes that would support their story more than adequately.

And we must accept that even though the specific MatchKing bullets used by the military have been altered from the original MatchKing offerings, Sierra, for some unknown and illogical reason decided to keep supporting the alleged coverup.

The theory is factually and logically bankrupt which is why it is not convincing.

I think the better question would be "Why would I use anything but the best?".

The fact that you can ask this question, honestly believing that the question and answer support your argument, is more than just a little bit amusing.

Your question is a good one. The answer is that it doesn't make sense to use something that isn't the best, something that isn't designed to do what you want it to. In this case, the manufacturer tells you which of their bullet lines is the best for hunting and which one shouldn't be used for hunting. That makes the decision so simple that it hardly even qualifies as a real decision.

[mardanlin]

I've seen good things from FMJ surplus ammo (took several deer with a mosin) but the match king HPBT tends to just explode on impact from my experience.

[globemaster3]

Meh, forget it...

John's post put it better than I ever could.

[Art Eatman]

Since I haven't seen any sign of any change of viewpoint during the backing-and-forthing in these two threads on this subject, why continue?

Them what is, will. Them what isn't, won't.