Today's handgun manufacturers and quality

[Uncle Malice]

Thanks man. I didn't want to call you out by name. That's up to you.

[TunnelRat]

I'll throw another story in for the hoot of it. Some years back I purchased a SIG SP2022 used in 40SW with a spare 357 SIG barrel. It seemed in good working order and was a hoot to shoot in 357 SIG (bring your ear pro). After a few hundred rounds though it the hammer starting following the slide (sear to hammer interaction was toast). I remember posting about it here and folks telling me that it was a somewhat known issue with those pistols in that caliber. I called up SIG. Their answer was I could pay to have it shipped to them overnight and then for $150 they'd go through the pistol and replace any parts that were worn. This plus $70 for overnight shipping was half the price of those pistols at the time. Yay?

Another more cosmetic story was I was one of those who first posted when SIG was having some issues with their nitride finish. Specifically the dipping racks they were using were leaving thumb sized gaps in the finish on both sides of the inside of the slide. This was a brand new $900 pistol. When I called SIG about it I was told this was perfectly normal and wasn't a cause for concern. Glocks at the time could be had for $500 and didn't exhibit the same problem. Now eventually SIG figured out how to make it work for the production pistols. Because it was normal there was no need to send it back in, nor would they take it even if I paid. Now is this more of a cosmetic issue? Sure. But it says something about a company when they are fine with brand new pistols for $900 with a finish subpar compared to pistols nearly half the price.

[Uncle Malice]

My SP2022 in 9mm had that problem! I believe it was right around the same time as yours and after reading your report, I didn't even bother sending it to Sig, I just sold it locally at a discount and let the guy know the issue i was having.

[pete2]

I don't have a Sig. I have bought several new guns that did have problems. A Ruger CMD that shot low, Ruger replaced it and the replacement had several problems, had to return it on warranty. A kimber that would lock back on the next to last round, I had to dimple the slide stop to make it work, A Citadel that the ejector tip broke off of, tried 3 time to contact them, replaced it myself, 3 S&W revolvers with problems, returned 2 on warranty, living with the other one. Citori shotgun, wouldn't cock, had to return it to Browning after the Warranty center in Dallas didn't repair it. It seems to be a crapshoot whether a new gun will work or not. These were all brand new guns. The mfgs are not doing any quality control. Put the parts together and ship them, if it's bad enough customer will return it. Very poor.

[sigarms228]

Not that they won't WORK on a used Sig. But there is ZERO warranty on any used Sig. You will pay out of pocket for anything that has to be done.

Sorry about the problem your friend is having but that is pretty much what you give up with a used gun or pretty much anything else that is out of the the warranty. Again I have read of many who have bought used SIGs that SIG repaired at no charge out of warranty, at least in the past, but I am sure that is a case by case basis.

I know my local gun store offers a warranty on used guns for $40 I believe. Not sure how many do that.

[TunnelRat]

Sorry about the problem your friend is having but that is pretty much what you give up with a used gun or pretty much anything else that is out of the the warranty. Again I have read of many who have bought used SIGs that SIG repaired at no charge out of warranty, at least in the past, but I am sure that is a case by case basis.

S&W has sent me parts for free and done repairs on pistols I bought used. It didn't add up to a lot of cost, but it was gratis.

[Uncle Malice]

Yup. I actually bought a used Walther PPS back when S&W was handling their US customer service.

Turned out it was actually broken, and that's why I got a good deal on it. S&W paid for shipping to them, informed me that it was broken at the ejector, which is part of the frame, and was not repairable. Rather than telling me to kick rocks and eat the cost, they sent me a brand new factory PPS AND replaced the 4 magazines I sent with the gun with brand new ones.

This was back when the PPS was like $600 and mags were like $60+ each. Because of that - admittedly surprising action - I purchased a bunch more S&W products. The M&P 9 is one of my favorite 9mm pistols. The only reason I don't currently have one in my collection is because I gave my father my M&P 9 with Trijicon HD's and Apex trigger kit. He loves it. I plan to replace it with an FDE version.

Some companies get it. Some don't. Sig does not.

By all means, buy a new Sig. You'll probably not have any problems, and if you do, they will probably take care of you. But I've been a huge Sig fanboy for YEARS, and frequently recommend people to buy used if they are concerned about the cost of a new Sig. A used P229/P226 for $600-ish is a great deal on a stellar gun... but not at the cost of having zero support from the manufacturer.

Referencing Ruger again, they have NO WARRANTY and will happily do right by the customer whether they are the first or fifth owner.

[Radny97]

I have had several Ruger revolvers and I have high demands in regards to their accuracy. Over the years I have had to send in three revolvers for various issues. Ruger paid shipping both ways. In two of the cases they replaced the gun for free. The replacement was much nicer than the original. Like it got some extra tlc to ensure that I didn't return it again. The other gun they fixed the problem perfectly.
My opinion is that Ruger does not have great quality control because so many owners don't shoot enough to really identify minor problems or minimal accuracy issues. I do, and Ruger had backed me up. They'll keep getting my business.
Also I had an issue on a Dan Wesson revolver where I actually damaged the gun tinkering with it. CZ fixed it for free and paid shipping both ways. Great experience.

Sorry I just noticed this was in the semiauto forum, but I'll leave it here because I think the customer service experience is still relevant to the OP.

[rodfac]

Sig guns are still good on avergae, but their customer service is not good at all. God forbid you ever buy a used Sig, you will COMPLETELY on your own.

Not my experience at all. I bought a used P290 several years ago...the front sight went dim...and they fixed it on their dime including shipping and I was up front about it being a used gun. For a used 1911 RCS, they replaced a barrel and bushing that got by QC and did a superb action/trigger job as well...on their dime as well.

Calls to their CS people have always been polite, helpful etc. I'd rate them with S&W and Ruger in that regard. True, this is just a cpl of instances but .... about as valid as anybody else's I'd say.

As to overall quality; all manuf's. today do not hand fit their products as they did 20-40 years go...and yes, I go back that far. To be honest, the good old days weren't as problem free as we'd like to remember. The reason for that hand-fitting that we all cherish, is that the basic machining and/or machine tools wasn't all that good.

Today's CNC machining is way above what was done years ago in my opinion. Having bought new, several Smiths and a half dozen Rugers over the past 10 years, my experience is that the new stuff in those makes is as accurate or more so than that delivered 20-40 years ago.

I'm not interested in getting into a peeing contest about this..as it's just my experience and YMMV obviously to a greater or lesser degree. I sincerely hope they work it out for you...and yes, it shouldn't have left the factory QC in less than operable condition. While the tools are better nowadays, the QC, for some, has gone down-hill.

I sure hope they make good on your problems. Rod

[WVsig]

Not my experience at all. I bought a used P290 several years ago...the front sight went dim...and they fixed it on their dime including shipping and I was up front about it being a used gun. For a used 1911 RCS, they replaced a barrel and bushing that got by QC and did a superb action/trigger job as well...on their dime as well.

Calls to their CS people have always been polite, helpful etc. I'd rate them with S&W and Ruger in that regard. True, this is just a cpl of instances but .... about as valid as anybody else's I'd say.

As to overall quality; all manuf's. today do not hand fit their products as they did 20-40 years go...and yes, I go back that far. To be honest, the good old days weren't as problem free as we'd like to remember. The reason for that hand-fitting that we all cherish, is that the basic machining and/or machine tools wasn't all that good.

Today's CNC machining is way above what was done years ago in my opinion. Having bought new, several Smiths and a half dozen Rugers over the past 10 years, my experience is that the new stuff in those makes is as accurate or more so than that delivered 20-40 years ago.

I'm not interested in getting into a peeing contest about this..as it's just my experience and YMMV obviously to a greater or lesser degree. I sincerely hope they work it out for you...and yes, it shouldn't have left the factory QC in less than operable condition. While the tools are better nowadays, the QC, for some, has gone down-hill.

I sure hope they make good on your problems. Rod

Sig CS is very rep dependent in my experience. Some of them are very good some are piss poor. It is sort of the luck of the draw IMHO.

In both these cases you were lucky they worked on gun when you were not the original owner. Most people report rejection of their warranty claims by Sig when a gun is "used". The lifetime warranty applies only to the original purchaser.

You are correct that CNC machines allow for greater accuracy of the original part where the trouble starts is when those machines get out of spec and the people assembling, not fitting or building, these guns do not have the skill or the time to determine if a part is out of spec and it is used and assembled into a gun and sent to the consumer.

I believe that most guns like a Sig P299 or the OPs P938 are slapped together on an assembly line out of a bin of parts in front of a low skill worker who is not inspecting and QCing ever part but putting together pistols as fast as they can to meet production schedules. As a percentage of guns made the QC might only be 1% off from the days of more skilled workers but they are producing a lot more guns so the raw number of guns with defects is higher.

This was also true back in the good old days too IMHO. During the Bangor Punta days of S&W the guns produced are often considered inferior to the guns produced before and after. I have always believed that this was because S&W was producing a ton of guns at that time in relation to their size and the market. They were the dominate maker of the time. Their volumes sky rocketed and the number of pistols when up and the perceived QC when down but in reality I would speculate the defect % wasn't much higher they were simply putting out more pistols so the pure # of reported defects was much higher than at any other period previously. They were trying to squeeze more $$ out of ever gun at time of huge sales and the squeezed to hard. IMHO This does not mean S&W did not manufacture some crappy guns during the BP days but a lot had to do with market forces not just the style of production.

Sig these days is a lot better than they were in say 2010. Their adaption of a growth model based on volume, ala Cohen Kimber, caused a lot of issues in the early 2000s. Their poor execution of MIM at the time did not help. Moving tons of metal and not beefing up the CS side hurt Sig. All that said one has to remember that the good old ways of making Sig Pistols in Germany left the company an expensive low volume manufacturer which was no making any money when Cohen took over. For the most part these things have been corrected. These days I think in general Sig is making quality guns these days. I think they are still over priced for what you get but in general their quality is very good these days.

Hope the OP is able to work out the issue. Please update us if and when it gets resolved.

[barrybenson1776]

The gun has been returned to Sig for inspection. Every phone call and email I had with them indicates they will not fix it. We'll have to see what they do. It will take many weeks so I have to be patient.

I'll report back with details. Regardless, the whole experience has soured me. That is why I am restarting my research with the information I get here and trying to find a better company to give me limited funds to.

[Auto5]

I think quality can vary, not only by manufacturer, but by model lines and price points within a manufacturer. Extensive hand fitting and finishing are too costly for most mass produced firearms, especially in the budget lines, and end up being restricted to premium and custom guns (sometimes not even then). Compare a Smith and Wesson J frame from the 1960's to a comparable model of today. While metallurgy has probably improved, modern guns may use more plastic and cast parts. The trend seems to be toward durable utilitarian finishes, instead of beautiful aesthetic work. Fitment is done to the manufacturer's tolerances. Less than perfect is acceptable as long as it works. In addition, firearms are being produced in greater numbers and at faster speeds. Just by the law of averages, some lemons are going to slip through.

[rt11002003]

I've purchased more than 20 guns in the past two years. Some old, some new. The old guns were used, or listed as used; and purchased because they had a good reputation. I can't say any of my purchases were "bad" guns. However, some of them didn't live up to their reputation.

My experience with is SIG has been good, as far as their guns go. I believe the German mfg. ones are of better quality than the US mfg ones. I also believe their CS sucks. Every dealing with them left a bad taste in my mouth. Had it not been for my LSG I'd never deal with SIG again. They left me up in the air for over a year when I attempted to buy a p210 Legend Super Target, finally saying they were no longer available. I purchased a X-5 L1 at their regular price; they delivered it with 10 round magazines that refused to function in the gun. They might work in a regular p226; I don't know. I finally found a couple of magazines from another supplier.

I've purchased several Rugers. Bought one used; it looked like it had hardly been used, still had the sticker on the frame. It had problems. I paid to send it to them. Ruger CS fixed the problem, upgraded several items and returned it free of charge.

I have several old and new HK's. I can't tell any difference in quality. However, I will note the HK p7 series is different. The quality is excellent, the design is different and guns like that are not made anymore. It would be too expensive.

Actually, I'm impressed that modern guns are as good as they are. Reaching back over 70+ years of memory I recall a lot of guns not as good as what is available today.

[dgludwig]

I have many pistols from many manufacturers, including CZ, Beretta, Colt, S&W, H&K, Ruger and SIG. It's been my experience that the companies providing the very best customer service are Ruger and Smith & Wesson. Also, the semi-auto pistols that I have found to be the most rugged and reliable, day in and day out, no matter what they're fed, are Smith "Third Generation" pistols.

This isn't to say that other companies don't provide good customer service or that other companies don't make "rugged and reliable" pistols; I'm just citing my own experiences.

[Haycreek]

Not long ago, I purchased a new Sig 1911, the pistol would not run a mag of new fmj without jamming. The Sig tech was called, and he told me that the Sig 1911 will need 400 or so rounds to "break-in the pistol. He was somewhat rude also. My opinion of Sig has reached a new low. ---

[marine6680]

Overall, I feel that current tech revolving around machining and otherwise shaping metal, is greatly improved over that of just a couple decades ago... Or sooner.

Meaning the ability to hold tighter tolerances and more consistent parts.

Add that to superior design ability using computer software, that can not only simulate how the parts will fit and function together, but also simulate stress and fatigue of the materials over time.

(All this does require the manufacturer to actually run the machines in a manner conducsive to high precision, and change the cutting heads often enough.)


All this combines so there is much less or even no need of hand fitting.


Any firearms manufacturer that has updated their process in the past 20 years or so should have the ability to make quality products. It's all down to good engineering... Good design and choosing proer materials and specs.

So the parts are made better usually, and if the design is sound, the product should be good.


But this is a double edged sword


The lowered need for hand fitting, means less personal attention is paid to an individual firearm on the production line.

Couple that with the desire to keep costs down, for profit, price point, or both... And you get manufacturers hiring lower skilled labor for their production.

Also changes to design or skipping finishing steps. IE, using polymer where metal used to be, like the 10/22 trigger group, or not tumbling and smoothing parts prior to assembly, causing rough edges and surfaces.

Then a third factor of needing to produce in large quantities... All the machining and assembly takes a good bit of time...


Well it all adds up to a situation where the "lemons" slip out a little easier.


Bruce Grey has been quoted as saying the new Sigs are built better than the old ones. Meaning that the overall design and material quality is better with the modern milled slide Sigs, not necessarily that the production process is also better. (This statement is highly dependent on the accuracy of the person who provided the quote originally)

I have even read many opinions that Colt has greatly improved the quality of their 1911s since switching to modern machines with less hand fitting, over the old equipment/tooling from the early 1900s the were using.

[marine6680]

Haycreek...

Sig 1911 mags are not very good. I havr a friend who experienced the same issues. Started using different mags than the included, and the issues stopped.


1911s are regularly said to need a break in, from the high end all the way to the cheapest.

For different reasons each time... From being built extremely tight, to rough parts and assembly...

I personally have not experienced any issues with the new in box mid range 1911s (respected makers in the $800-1200 price range) I have had direct experience with.

[adamBomb]

If a gun manufacturer is still in business after a few years they cant have a poor quality control problem unless they have a huge savings/investor. I think a lot of what we hear and expect is due to marketing and hype. All companies have a defect rate. I have no clue what that is for guns but I assume like other manufacturers its between 1-5%. The difference is that some companies have done such a great job at marketing that their defects are blamed on user error, even though the user sends the gun in the company fixes/replaces it. Other gun companies arent so lucky and everyone blames the gun not the user. All gun companies have sold a defect to someone.

[BigJimP]

In my view, there are too many models in most of the production mfg's gun lines ( including Springfield, Sig, S&W, Kimber, etc )....to make any meaningful comments about quality trends today../ I think all of the production mfg's put out pretty good guns...and they all put out some stuff that was not well thought out - and probably rushed them to market...in order to keep up with the demads in a given area.

I don't care if you're talking about guns, cars or tools ...if the mfg rushed something to market ...its usually going to be a problem. Being on the "Bleeding Edge" of techonology ...on the newest and greatest often ends badly...and guns are no exception.

I have 5 Sigs ...( pair of 226's, pair of 239's and an X-Five ...) ...and I've never needed to use customer service on any of them...but when I've discussed things like springs, sights, etc..they've always been helpful. I have no reason to whine about Sigs service / and I think Sig sill makes a lot of solid products.
-----------------------
Of the mfg's you mentioned ...I'd put Sig and HK near the top ...Springfield proably in a distant 3rd...and S&W, Ruger two or three more big leaps down the list...followed somewhere by Kimber. But that's based on my experiences ...and what I see some of my buddies go thru...( not that many guns go to service depts ...even though a dozen of my buddies and I probably have 250 handguns between us...

If you want solid products - and good customer service...consider Wilson Combat...( they're setting a very high standard ! ).

[BoogieMan]

Guns today are tighter and overall made with much closer tolerances than ever before. What almost all manufacturers lack is craftsmanship. No one is handling the product until you open the box and go to the range. Cnc machines make the parts with high precision, programming and algorithms within the process change tools and inserts as they wear so that the difference between the first and last part in a run is within a couple thousandths max. I imagine some of the higher end guns have that craftsmanship, but that's only a guess.
As far as the factory customer service. It's going to vary by the individual who picks up the phone. To date the only manufacturer I have dealt with has been kimber. And the experience was better than I would have expected. They sent out a replacement part based upon my word and explanation. Maybe if operator B answered it wouldn't have been as good. We have to understand that many times the CS people we talk to don't consider the guns that we buy any different than someone calling about a blender. Mostly they work a 9-5 job answering phones with no skin in the game.

[Skans]

There is no manufacturing process I am familiar with that has a 100% success rate.

On a truly high quality precision machine where I have access to parts; I would gladly take my chances.

For that matter to guarantee a pistol will work perfectly with every type of ammunition, lubricant, and user is no small task and that's what manufacturers have to contend with.

Personally, I don't want any guaranty. Or customer service. It doesn't have to work perfectly with every type of ammunition. I just want access to super-high quality firearms.

We can find a complaint for every manufacturer online, even those commanding premium prices.

I haven't come across a complaint on a any Korth revolvers.

Even if built perfectly, the parts within that pistol will have a useful life and you might still need customer service for maintenance of certain parts.

I do need access to factory parts, I acknowledged this. I don't really equate a place where I can order parts to "customer service". Usually when people complain about customer service, they are talking about having to ship a pistol back to the factory on their dime; having to pay for work to their gun; length of time it takes the factory to fix a gun; rude behavior of a rep who denies a gun for warranty work, etc. I don't want or need any of this! I will gladly take responsibility for fixing my own gun, if it is an exceptional quality arm, and if I have full access to parts.

Heck, I take on this responsibility every time I buy an older model used gun. Anyone who buys a machine gun at 10K plus also assumes this risk.
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[TunnelRat]

Personally, I don't want any guaranty. Or customer service. It doesn't have to work perfectly with every type of ammunition. I just want access to super-high quality firearms.

What exactly is your definition of "super-high quality" then? For most people reliability is the key factor, and working with different ammunition from various manufacturers and of various power factors is certainly part of reliability.

I haven't come across a complaint on a any Korth revolvers.

I had to Google who Korth was. When you're talking very small volume and firearms costing $6,000 for a revolver, then yes maybe "perfection" is possible. But that's not something the average consumer is likely to afford. That said, I'll edit my statement to the following:

Originally Posted by TR

We can find a complaint for every major manufacturer online, even some of those commanding premium prices.

I don't want or need any of this! I will gladly take responsibility for fixing my own gun, if it is an exceptional quality arm, and if I have full access to parts.

Not every owner of a firearm has the technical skill to service every part in that firearm. That's reality. Some designs are also such that the factory itself would much rather do certain services themselves (though I imagine you could argue that can be changed). I imagine that if Korth had to do volume of other manufacturers they'd likely have some pistols that needed servicing as well. If all manufacturers produced as small volume as Korth, then there would likely be many Americans that couldn't get access to the guns they want or there would be long waiting lists. Now maybe you don't personally care, but I live in a world where I'm not the only person. It sounds like you have the money to afford the level of quality you desire as is, but using Korth as a baseline is to me being somewhat ignorant of the realities of the market demand for firearms and the limits of manufacturing as they relate to volume.

[boatdoc173]

my experienc e is like yours Barry

I have german made Sigs that are awesome and USA made Sigs that fell apart out of the box(grips and rear sights) I guess the cellphone generation doe s not care about the quality of their work. Seems to me that they should--they are getting paid to do a good job. Like auto makers and boat makers, gun makers seem t o have a get it out and fix it later attitude. It seems stupid and wasteful to me (JMHO

[Skans]

Tunnelrat, I was just expressing my "wishes" for the type of guns I personally would like to see manufactured. I'm aware that many folks aren't like me and my comments aren't really geared to people who want workable firearms from a company that turns out lemons once in a while but with great customer service. That's mostly what the market provides, so I guess that's what people want and expect, or vice versa.

[TunnelRat]

I guess the cellphone generation doe s not care about the quality of their work. Seems to me that they should--they are getting paid to do a good job.

I take a lot of issue with this statement. I'm not sure what you define as "the cellphone generation", but putting all the blame on the workers is ludicrous. I know people that work at SIG. The production quotas they have are nuts and I know guys working 60+ hrs a week to try to meet everything. They aren't paid overly well, they lose overtime privileges any time a mistake is made even if they have an otherwise great record, and the company often cuts any kind of holiday bonuses if they aren't happy enough with the sales quarter (even when sales aren't the direct result of the guys on the CNC machines). In short, they're worked hard and not treated very well. As a result the turnover rate is very high. Then a new group of workers comes in and has to repeat the learning process all over while still under pretty intense demands in terms of production. It's a perpetuating cycle. If SIG wasn't as obsessed with volume then the workers would have more time to closely inspect the products, but they produce or they're shown the door. Corporate policy is, imo, a lot more to blame than the individual worker.