|
Forum Rules | Firearms Safety | Firearms Photos | Links | Library | Lost Password | Email Changes |
Register | FAQ | Calendar | Search | Today's Posts | Mark Forums Read |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
July 1, 2011, 09:56 AM | #26 |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
[1] Under federal law, any transfer (with a few, narrow exceptions, e. g., by bequest under a will) from a resident of one State to a resident of another must be through an FFL.
[2] In the case of handguns, it must be an FFL in the transferee's State of residence. [3] In the case of long guns, it may be any FFL as long as (1) the long gun is legal in the transferee's State of residence; and (2) the transfer is in compliance with the laws of the State in which it takes place; and (3) the transfer complied with the law of the transferee's State of residence. [4] In connection with the transfer of a long gun, some FFLs will not want to handle the transfer to a resident of another State, because they may be uncertain about the laws of that State. And if the transferee resides in some States (e. g., California), the laws of the State may be such that an out-of-state FFL will not be able to conduct a transfer that complies. [5] There are no exceptions under the applicable federal laws for gifts, whether between relatives or otherwise, nor is there any exception for transactions between relatives. [6] The relevant federal laws may be found at: 18 USC 922(a)(3); 18 USC 922(a)(5); and 18 USC 922(b)(3). Last edited by Frank Ettin; July 1, 2011 at 12:32 PM. |
July 1, 2011, 11:47 AM | #27 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: Sarasota (sort of) Florida
Posts: 1,296
|
No bills of sale. It's not a sale it's a gift.
Va and Florida do not have gun registration. Sonny drives up and Dad says enjoy them. Sonny is legal to have them in VA. Sonny sticks the guns (unloaded) in the truck of his car. Sonny drives back to Fla. Sonny is legal in Fla. Sonny heads for the range and starts sighting in. An FFL transfer is not needed. AFS
__________________
'Qui tacet consentit': To remain silent is to consent. |
July 1, 2011, 12:24 PM | #28 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
AFS, fiddletown just cited the USC that says you are flat out wrong. He and Aguila Blanca, both lawyers, say you are wrong. Why would you give advice that is illegal?
Note: It's against TFL rules to advocate intentionally breaking the law. |
July 1, 2011, 12:30 PM | #29 | |||||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
See my immediately preceding post. An FFL is needed for a transfer of a firearm from a resident of one State to a resident of another -- even if they are parent and child. Let's bread it down: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So if Sonny gets a gun from Dad in Virginia, he violates 18 USC 922(a)(3) by just driving it back to his home in Florida. |
|||||
July 1, 2011, 12:34 PM | #30 | |
Member
Join Date: October 17, 2010
Location: Athens, Georgia
Posts: 63
|
Quote:
|
|
July 1, 2011, 12:45 PM | #31 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 25, 2008
Location: California
Posts: 1,951
|
What if dad loans sonny the guns and he takes them back home then dad passes away before he can return them?
__________________
http://www.armsmaster.net-a.googlepages.com http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/f...aster270/Guns/ Retired LE, M.P., Sr. M.P. Investigator F.B.I. Trained Rangemaster/Firearms Instructor & Armorer, Presently Forensic Document Examiner for D.H.S. |
July 1, 2011, 12:49 PM | #32 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 21, 2005
Location: Sarasota (sort of) Florida
Posts: 1,296
|
BATF answer to this exact question:
It totally depends on local laws as to how the inheritance takes place. As far as the federal government is concerned, a gun can be taken across state lines to deliver as either an inheritance or gift as long as it is legal for the person receiving the gun to own it at their location. The transfer does not have to go through a FFL unless state law requires it. These might help. Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide 2000 (http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-ex...b/2000_ref.htm) ATF Online - Publication 5300.5 State Laws and Published Ordinances - Firearms (http://www.atf.treas.gov/firearms/st.../22edition.htm) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
__________________
'Qui tacet consentit': To remain silent is to consent. |
July 1, 2011, 01:05 PM | #33 | |
Staff
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 8,821
|
Quote:
I can't get your links to work, but we don't have any information to indicate that this is an inheritance. The OP said it was a gift. That's a different deal.
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some. |
|
July 1, 2011, 01:12 PM | #34 | ||
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
If Sonny takes the guns home to Florida while Dad is still alive, Sonny has already committed a federal felony, and Dad's subsequent death won't change that. Quote:
The statutes are the law and control, and the statutes don't say anything about a "gift." They only refer to bequest or intestate succession, and that happens only after death. If Dad is still alive, any rules relating to inheritance are irrelevant. |
||
July 1, 2011, 01:39 PM | #35 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,889
|
Guns willed to an individual, and given at death do not required a FFl to do the transfer as far as the ATF is concerned.
US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 44, Section 922 (a) It shall be unlawful— (5) for any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) to transfer, sell, trade, give, transport, or deliver any firearm to any person (other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector) who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe does not reside in (or if the person is a corporation or other business entity, does not maintain a place of business in) the State in which the transferor resides; except that this paragraph shall not apply to (A) the transfer, transportation, or delivery of a firearm made to carry out a bequest of a firearm to, or an acquisition by intestate succession of a firearm by, a person who is permitted to acquire or possess a firearm under the laws of the State of his residence, and From US Code Title 18 Part 1, Chapter 44 Section 922 (Page 7 – 8. Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. |
July 1, 2011, 02:01 PM | #36 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
And of course, state inheritance laws would apply. That might involve probate and court supervision of the distribution of the assets of the estate.
__________________
"It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully." -- Jeff Cooper |
|
July 1, 2011, 02:30 PM | #37 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 20, 2007
Location: Rainbow City, Alabama
Posts: 7,167
|
I'm still likeing the "long term loan" idea. Legal transfer hasn't taken place yet and if Dad croaks, the inheritance part takes over.
|
July 1, 2011, 02:35 PM | #38 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 20, 2007
Location: Richardson, TX
Posts: 7,523
|
Quote:
18 USC 922(a)(5)(B) allows the interstate loan of firearms, but only under specific circumstances. Quote:
In other words, a loan would only be legal for lawful sporting purposes. "Sporting purposes" is one of those nebulous terms that's only been defined under case law, but it generally means hunting or target competition, and it's usually tied to a specific hunt or event. IOW it's generally not legal for Pappy to lend a gun to Junior to store it indefinitely or to keep it for self-defense, even if the gun could also be used for "sporting purposes" from time to time. *Footnote: IIRC this was well covered in a thread about a year ago about the legality of storing firearms for an indefinite period of time at an out-of-state relative's house. I can't find the specific thread, but IIRC the consensus was that an FFL transfer was technically required since the relative didn't have any definitive and specific plans to use the guns, even though he/she went hunting from time to time.
__________________
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam. This is bowling. There are rules... MARK IT ZERO!!" - Walter Sobchak |
||
July 1, 2011, 03:02 PM | #39 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 4, 1999
Location: New Mexico
Posts: 1,889
|
fiddletown,
Sorry for the confusion. Jerry
__________________
Ecclesiastes 12:13 ¶Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. |
July 1, 2011, 05:02 PM | #40 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
(1) A loan is a transfer. It's a transfer of possession. (2) Dad may temporarily loan a gun to Sonny. But if Sonny takes it home to Florida, he violates 922(a)(3). (see post 29) Last edited by Frank Ettin; July 1, 2011 at 06:57 PM. |
|
July 1, 2011, 06:54 PM | #41 | |
Staff
Join Date: November 23, 2005
Location: California - San Francisco
Posts: 9,471
|
Quote:
|
|
July 1, 2011, 09:04 PM | #42 | ||||||||
Staff
Join Date: February 12, 2001
Location: DFW Area
Posts: 24,971
|
Quote:
Quote:
It's possible, depending on a number of circumstances that they might be able to make the transfer without ever getting caught, but that's moot to the initial question of legality. If they make the transfer (other than as a bequest in a will) then they have committed federal felonies. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
To answer your question, a thing is illegal because it's against the law and a thing is legal because it's not against the law. In other words, the criterion for legality is the law. It's NOT whether or not you are likely to get caught.
__________________
Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?
|
||||||||
July 1, 2011, 10:40 PM | #43 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,458
|
Quote:
|
|
July 1, 2011, 10:49 PM | #44 | |
Staff
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 18,458
|
Quote:
Various BATFE pronouncements and enforcement actions strongly suggest that "temporary" is something FAR short of "take it home from VA to FL and keep it as long as you like ... like forever." It's more like "Sorry your gun broke, you can use my spare for the rest of the afternoon/weekend." As to "lawful sporting purposes," the BATFE in assessing guns for importation has decided that even sanctioned practical shooting competitions (IPSC/IDPA) are NOT "lawful sporting" events. (Not that they are unlawful events, only that the BATFE seems to only recognize traditional bullseye competition as legitimately "sporting." So cowboy action shooting would appear not to be covered, either.) So exactly what "lawful sporting purpose" is the son borrowing Dad's entire collection for ... irrespective of the length of the purported "loan"? Much of the advice in this thread is likely to get someone in real trouble if they act on it. Last edited by Aguila Blanca; July 1, 2011 at 10:57 PM. |
|
July 2, 2011, 12:10 AM | #45 |
Senior Member
Join Date: November 15, 2007
Location: Outside KC, MO
Posts: 10,128
|
Aguila Blanca, my apologies, I had thought from some other threads that you were a lawyer. I may have assumed that because you've cited appropriate codes, and my lookups haven't contradicted your statements.
Still, my bust... |
July 2, 2011, 07:23 AM | #46 |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 10, 2011
Location: Kansas
Posts: 178
|
Darn. I thought I was getting all sorts of legitimate, free legal advice. Now I find that some of you do not even hang a shingle.
I suspect that the friend of the OP has already retrieved the guns that now belong to him. And frankly that really disturbs me. I can't condone violating laws, however I know there are laws in some states that prohibit certain friendly behaviors between a man and his wife. Certainly those laws are supposed to protect society. But what happens in my bedroom stays in my bedroom. Extrapolate if you wish. OP: Tell your friend that it is illegal to just drive up from Florida and pick up his gifted guns. Tell him that he should use dealers and ship them. Refer him to a lawyer to solidify your freely received counsel. Then you will know in your heart that we can all rest well at night. I think this subject has been thoroughly covered from all sorts of angles and sincerely pray it will be closed soon.:barf:
__________________
It is unethical to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is obviously unarmed. |
July 3, 2011, 10:04 AM | #47 |
Senior Member
Join Date: December 6, 1999
Location: Richmond, Virginia USA
Posts: 6,004
|
"I can't condone violating laws,"
You did earlier. What has changed your mind? "I still think if I was the OP, and I was going to VA for a visit, I would bring my guns back to me and keep my mouth shut as to the ownership trail " |
July 3, 2011, 12:56 PM | #48 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: March 10, 2011
Location: Kansas
Posts: 178
|
johnbt
Quote:
__________________
It is unethical to engage in a battle of wits with someone who is obviously unarmed. |
|
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
|
|