.358 Winchester, Why Not?

[Old Bill Dibble]

So my question is why not?

It seems this cartridge offer a lot and has few negatives.
- Cheap and plentiful plinking bullets
- A potentially huge range of loadings
- Nice heavy bullet for use on just about any game in NA
- Easy use in AR's and other SA rifles
- Easy suppression potential

So what happened to this cartridge to get it sent off to ammo obsolescence?

[Nathan]

I would bet recoil would be pretty heavy. ...and it requires the less popular ar10 platform.

In addition, I don't know something that makes it better than 308, except on bear.

That said, i think it is a round that got trumped by America's love of the word magnum.

[Gunplummer]

I would not say there is a huge range of loads. The only way to go is up, or you end up with a fat .308 or a .35 Remington. I have one in a '99 Savage Featherweight and it does kick pretty good. I suppose it was marketed more or less as a "Brush" round and that pretty much did it in later.

[Old Bill Dibble]

I say "potentially" huge range of loadings. Factory loading simply are not out there right now.

It can load all of the 38/357 bullets and most of the 35 rifle bullets.

When you think about it which would you rather have a 270gr .35 cal bullet traveling subsonic or 208gr .30 caliber bullet at the same speed (300BO). One will hit quite a lot harder than the other.

In these light loadings recoil is a breeze.

Want to switch to a full power round? While it won't shoot flatter than 308 it will hit harder at close range, the ranges where most people hunt and fight. Not that the .308 is a wimpy round I'm just saying the .358 would be more.

This offers a much better range of options than some of the more popular rounds.

True the AR-10 is not nearly as popular as the AR-15 but there are plenty of them around.

[chuckscap]

A nice cartridge. For us old timers a BLR in 358 Win is one helluva brush gun

[Jimro]

The 35 bore has never been a huge seller in the US. The 35 Whelen is probably the most popular, and yet it is nowhere near as popular as the 30-06.

There are a lot of good 35 caliber offerings, 350 Rem Mag, 358 Win, 358 Norma. Even the slightly smaller lever action offering 348 Win was a dang good cartridge. But they've all come and gone, save for a few hunters and sportsman who really like them and keep them alive because they perform on game the way good medium bore rounds have always performed.

But, the most successful sporting cartridges in America are all 30 cal. 30-06, 308 Win, 300 Win Mag, 30-30 Win. For some reason the 30 cal bore has been a commercial success, and the 35 cal bore has not.

Jimro

[jmr40]

The only practical advantage is the ability to shoot light loads with pistol bullets. Compared to 308 or 30-06 both beat it at close range and beyond 100 yards blow it away while generating much less recoil. The same could be said for the 270 and various 7mm loadings. Typical recoil of 358 loads are in the 25 ft lb range compared to 15-18 ft lbs for 308 and 18-20 ft lbs for 30-06. A lot of people knock magnum rounds because of excessive recoil and will often recommend rounds like 358. The actual recoil numbers of 358 are just shy of 300 WM. If I'm going to get the recoil anyway I might as well get the advantages of a magnum round.


There was a time when larger calibers were perceived as being better. This really goes all the way back to the days of round balls and black powder. The only way to make a round ball heavier was to increase bore diameter. Conical bullets changed all that and we can now make bullets heavier by making them longer. A 180-220 gr 30 caliber bullet or a 160-175gr 7mm bullet is a lot longer than a 225-250 gr 35 caliber bullet and will penetrate deeper doing more damage. At ranges under 50-100 yards there isn't any advantage either way, yes a 358 will kill North American game just fine. It just isn't any better than other options. And as range increases beyond 50-100 yards it is at a decided disadvantage.

You don't see any real advantage on big game animals with any chambering between 30 caliber and 375 caliber. I've seen numerous tests showing comparable 30's out performing 33's and 35's when heavier bullets were used in the 30 calibers.

[T. O'Heir]

Used to be you could get an M1A in .358 Win. Late 70's, early 80's. Discontinued over 35 years ago though.
However, factory ammo if that's important is not widely available. Midway lists 6 brands/loads. One's on 'Backorder ok'. Hornady 200 grainers(currently on sale) and Double Tap 250 as 'In stock'. Other 3 are on 'No Backorder'.
Graf's shows only Hornady brass and ammo available, but nothing else.
However, it's mostly because it got out-marketed by Remington(there being a rimmed .35 Winchester likely doesn't help either) and doesn't do anything other cartridges do not.
Just a necked up .308, so it could be made easily enough.

[TnTnTn]

I have killed a fair number of TN whitetails with my bolt action .358 Win. I use Speer 220g flat points over Win 748 and it is the hammer of Thor. It is a great cartridge but is a handloading only proposition IMO. Recoil is not a problem and not that different than other cartridges in its class.

[dgludwig]

My Savage Model 99, chambered in .358 Winchester, is my favorite rifle for hunting whitetails. Deer don't travel very far when hit with a 200 grain Silvertip in the boiler room.

[FrankenMauser]

I'd have no problem with a .358 Winchester.
It's a good cartridge.

But it was introduced at a time when the world just wasn't ready for it.
And, though not overly offensive, I do find that .358 Winchester has very 'snappy' recoil. It won't end a range trip, but I don't enjoy shooting the cartridge. Recoil definitely comes up in nearly any discussion of the cartridge, so I'm sure it has been a factor in the cartridge's obsolescence.


And, it's still a bit of a beast to reload for, since COAL issues are not uncommon. Fewer bullets can be seated short enough to stay within magazine length, without putting the ogive inside the case neck, than many people realize. (And whether this is an issue on a particular rifle does depend upon the model in question.)

In addition, the whole "handgun bullets for plinking" thing doesn't go over as well as most shooters would hope. Some reloaders do have good luck and good results. But most find that handgun bullet accuracy is extremely sub-par. Sounds good on paper. Doesn't work well in the real world.


It's a good cartridge and I have a lot of respect for what it can do.
But even I went elsewhere for .35 caliber: .35 Whelen.
'Cause if I'm going to be sucking up extra recoil, I might as well step up to a cartridge that nearly duplicates .30-06 trajectories (at the same chamber pressure), but does so with a bigger, heavier bullet.

[Crankylove]

I load my 358 Winchester with 45.5 grains of W748, and a 250 grain Hot Cor. Gives me 2,225-2,250 fps out of my Ruger Hawkeye..............not as fast as my .270 or '06, but not blackpowder speeds either.

I bought mine specifically to use on elk, in shorter range (up to about 200 yards) hunting areas. I have a .270, an '06, and a 7.62x54R if I want more range or speed.

When I picked it out, i was looking for a short range "brush gun", large diameter heavy bullet, no belted case, and nothing with "magnum" in the name. Recoil isn't bad, too me. I'd say it's on par with my .270 130 grain loads, but it does have a bit different recoil impulse.

While I have (and have loaded) 200, 220, and 225 bullets for it, I mainly shoot the 250's. If I want lighter, or faster bullets, I have an'06 for 165's, and 180's, and, a .270 for 130's and 140's.


I looked at a BLR before picking up my Ruger, and while a very nice gun, it was heavier and $250 more than the Hawkeye.

I'd love to set up a .358 AR 10 style rifle, but don't think I'd like to pack around the extra weight compared to my bolt action.

[Gunplummer]

I tried factory Winchester ammo. It came with the gun. I thought the scope was loose, it shot so bad. I don't know if all of them are, but my 99 is real finicky about ammo.

[Paul B.]

I like the .358 Win. and have four of them. I also have three rifles in .35 Whelen. I shoot the 225 gr. Barnes TSX at 2700 in the Whelen.
On accuracy from the .358, the two Ruger M77 tang safety models are about 1.5" guns with factory loads and slightly better with hand loads. The BLR was sloppy until I did some tinkering with the forearm and barrel band. Rattles a bit but is MOA with just about everything I run through it. The Savage 99 is the most accurate of the lot at 1.0" with factory and .75 with my hand loads. The BLR is the lightest weight and the Savage the heaviest. I haven't found recoil to be all that bad but maybe it's because I shoot heavier kicking cartridges. None seem any worse than my 30-06. Maybe the rifles just fit me better. Qien sabe??????
Paul B.

[stagpanther]

Simply a fabulous and under-rated cartridge. Unless you have meaningful experience with it--believe me, you cannot know it enough to really appreciate it. Yes--it rainbows a bit at intermediate ranges but it is a sledgehammer. I cannot tell the difference in recoil between my 358 build and a 308.

[Old Bill Dibble]

That is what I am looking for. Did you build it yourself?

[stagpanther]

Yes I did.

KAK 19.5" barrel; PSA upper/lower and PK; JP trigger (but any good one will do);Diamondhead rail and Kahntrol brake (works GREAT).

[fourbore]

As I see it, the 358 win will not do anything the 308 cannot handle. The only animal in north America that some might merit a step up from the 308 win is brown bear. For those who want that, a real step up is something more like 375H&H. Or there are longer range choices.

IMHO - Nothing to do with American fascination with magnums. Remember the 358 Norma?

It gets a little too much: 8mm, 338,348,358,9.3mm,375 - -- They cant all be winners. Or maybe they can? What do I know.

[Llama Bob]

I'm sure it's a perfectly suitable cartridge, but I can't really see any point to hunting with an AR10. Not my cup of tea, certainly.

For deer, elk, antelope and hogs I'll take a 7mag. For the great bears and bison, in the unlikely event I get a tag, I'll take .375 H&H. So I don't see a role for anything I'd be likely to do.

[stagpanther]

As I see it, the 358 win will not do anything the 308 cannot handle.

Oh yes it will--lot's bigger hole with lots more force!

[Jimro]

As I see it, the 358 win will not do anything the 308 cannot handle.

Quite true, but not very relevant as all the medium bore cartridges hunt the same class of animal quite well. The ancient 9x57 was well regarded as a hunting round, now almost forgotten after the introduction of the 9.3x62 and 375 H&H.

Being a good hunting round doesn't guarantee market success, but market success doesn't mean something is a good hunting round (the 223 Rem for example, excellent cartridge for what it is but not something I'd choose to carry for elk).

Jimro

[stagpanther]

Quite true, but not very relevant as all the medium bore cartridges hunt the same class of animal quite well. The ancient 9x57 was well regarded as a hunting round, now almost forgotten after the introduction of the 9.3x62 and 375 H&H.

Being a good hunting round doesn't guarantee market success, but market success doesn't mean something is a good hunting round (the 223 Rem for example, excellent cartridge for what it is but not something I'd choose to carry for elk).

Jimro

How true--words of wisdom : )

[44 AMP]

I use Speer 220g flat points over Win 748 and it is the hammer of Thor.

This is what I have seen, as well. Not just the .358, but all the .35 rifle rounds. You won't see it in the paper ballistics. You only see it when game are shot. .35Rem out smacks .30-30 on deer, .358, .35Whelen and .350 Rem Mag hit even harder.

It may be simply the frontal area of the bullet, it may be something else one can't easily quantify, but the observed results are the observed results. .35s and up hit like the Hammer of Thor.

Even though the energy might be the same as a .30 round, the observed effect looks like the .35s hit harder.

deer don't read ballistics charts...

The biggest drawback to the .358 in semi auto rifles, particularly, is that the case doesn't have much of shoulder to headspace on. This can make for a more "picky" rifle when it comes to ammo fit, and accuracy.

[Jimro]

The biggest drawback to the .358 in semi auto rifles, particularly, is that the case doesn't have much of shoulder to headspace on. This can make for a more "picky" rifle when it comes to ammo fit, and accuracy.

The 358 has a practically massive shoulder compared to the standard version of the 35 Whelen.

Of course when COL Whelen was necking up the 30-06 he did so in the 1903 Springfield action with controlled round feed. The rim slipped under the extractor claw during feeding, so even with excess headspace the rim would grip the round tight enough against the bolt face for the firing pin to strike hard and light off the round.

I once proved that you could have such excess headspace in a 30-06 that the brass would stretch and crack consistently, but being in a Mauser 98 CRF action, they would still set off reliably with almost two tenths of an inch of excess headspace. Funny story now, but boy was I embarrassed at the time.

Jimro

[Old Bill Dibble]

The wife was gifted a .35 Remington last year and she has been itching to try it out this fall on the deer. I am willing to bet it does hit a lot harder than the .30-30. It does have a bit more recoil than the .30-30 but if you only need one shot and the animal is bang-flop who cares?

As I see it, the 358 win will not do anything the 308 cannot handle.

Other than big bears sure. Big bear hunting is pretty uncommon though.

I am thinking shooting suppressed subsonics. A bigger heavier bullet without getting clown shoes heavy (.458 comes to my mind) that will outperform .300BO and can also function as a good hunting cartridge instead of a marginal one. A much better array of defensive bullets available as well.

An adjustable gas block would be a must.

The biggest drawback to the .358 in semi auto rifles, particularly, is that the case doesn't have much of shoulder to headspace on. This can make for a more "picky" rifle when it comes to ammo fit, and accuracy.

I can see this being a problem, not insurmountable but still an issue.

Most people get multiple guns to handle different problems sets. It would be nice to have one gun that can handle multiple problem sets with a few adjustments and some changes in ammo.

You don't see any real advantage on big game animals with any chambering between 30 caliber and 375 caliber. I've seen numerous tests showing comparable 30's out performing 33's and 35's when heavier bullets were used in the 30 calibers.

I'd be interested in seeing some of those if available.