Home defense longgun: Remington 11-87 (12ga) or Steyr AUG-Z (.223)? - Page 2

Para Bellum · August 12, 2005, 01:20 PM

Quote:

I'm sorry but most of Kojak's post isn't true. If you want to believe it Para Bellum, you are displaying the naivite I mentioned earlier. I'm too lazy to go point by point, so it's your life.

Are you trying to be insulting or is my English not good enough to understand the true value of your lines quoted above?

Quote:

Too much gun choice and not enough training, IMHO.

How do you know?

Quote:

Have you fired either in something approaching a tactical situation? Not punching the square range?

There is a real chance that you are not the only one with military and/or LEO and/or civil professional armed background and real-life firearms experience. Think about it.

625 · August 12, 2005, 01:21 PM

Get the shotgun and buy 10,000 or so shells with the money you saved.

Don't those Steyr AUG's have crappy triggers, anyway?

Duxman · August 12, 2005, 01:45 PM

Famous line from terminator....I would go with the 12 ga as well. If you fear the Hostage situation, I think it would quickly de-esclate once you cycle your 12 ga shotgun.

CobrayCommando · August 12, 2005, 02:04 PM

*Hank Hill Voice* Oh Lord....

Sleuth · August 12, 2005, 02:27 PM

As the former lead instructor for my agency, which issued the AUG, let me add my bit. One problem with the AUG (other than cost), is the high sight line above the bore. At very close ranges, given your hostage rescue scenario, this is a problem. Also, the 'rear' ejection can be a problem if you are, say, right handed, but the only cover is to your right. Both of these issues can be overcome with training.

While I own a AUG and a shotgun, I would go to a handgun for interior defense. I live a long way (2 miles) off the road, so a rifle is fine for exterior defense in my case. In fact, many police entry teams have gone to handguns for entry, for greater manuverability inside structures.

I think that the funds to buy either of these long guns may be better spent on more handgun training.

And I do believe the AUG is the finest 5.56 rifle extant.

Para Bellum · August 12, 2005, 03:11 PM

Sleuth,

thanks for your input. The high sight-system also botheres me, but I can go for the AUG-Z with a picantinny-rail and mount a low scope. Unfortunately I can't reach the steyr-webiste at the moment - I'd have posted a picture...

Struggling with that decision back and forth, I also came to the conclusion that indoors I'd trust my handgun. Accuracy is well enough and I sure don't have the problem with too different sight/barrel axises. And, it's on my hip 24/7.

But I think I'd still get the Remington or a Benelli autoloader for my wife as a first home-defense gun. So, the next decision, Benelli or Remington....

So, thank you all for your time and thought! Stay safe and sound.

Sleuth · August 12, 2005, 03:18 PM

The problem is not the sight base. Since there is zero drop to the stock, your facial structure will dictate how high the sight will have to be. You just cannot get a really low sighting plane with an AUG.

Glenn E. Meyer · August 12, 2005, 05:06 PM

Parabellum, you accepted as truth statments that were factually wrong about shotgun usage. That was the basis of my opinion. I will say again that if you make a decision on incorrect information - I'm not convinced.

Shotguns at close range (house) do not have a higher probability of a hit.

223s vs buckshot haven't shown that buckshot is convincing a better round.

223s are only suited for 50 yards - where did that come from? Police are switching away from shotguns. You don't see major military issuing shotguns except for special purposes. It's crap.

Take a handgun and you will be able to rescue hostages at close range. What is the basis of the differential use of handgun have to do with a shotgun vs. AR debate? You can make a selective shot with a AR easier than with a shotgun where you have to worry about pattern. Are you really suggesting that carrying a shotgun, you will really transition to a shotgun just to make a precise shot? Take makes no sense.

Since these problems were obvious to me, I suggested your acceptance of the shotgun selection to not be the wisest.

Para Bellum · August 13, 2005, 03:30 PM

...I think we are misunderstanding each other. I did not "accept as truth statments that were factually wrong about shotgun usage...". I did agree with some of the points kojak was making, and I still do. Here's his post again:

Quote:

A shotgun can utilize buck shot, very high probability to hit even if it's dark.

true.

Quote:

You just have more options, you could even identify the felon to make sure you don't shoot someone of your family and then switch of all light.

I don't quite get that, but

Quote:

Buck shot on the felon and it's over.

that's close to truth again...

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A .223 offers advantage in ranges above 50 yards.

true...

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Not suitable for home defense.

I doubt that...

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Just take a handgun as a backup and you'll be able to rescue hostages at close ranges.

Thats what I fully agreed to. Shotgun and buckshot for heavy duty and a handgun fur surgical work. Makes perefect sense to me...

Quote:

Stopping power of a shotgun is way better than .223!

Mhm... placement....

Thank you for your time and thought, Glenn and thanks for your concern about my possible misinterpretation of Kojak.

Hard Ball · August 13, 2005, 04:29 PM

If you want to use a shotgun for home defense take it to the range and pattern it at ranges from 5. 10, 15 and 20 yards WITH THE BUCKSOT LOAD YOU INTEND TO USE!. You will be surprised at the distances required to get a significant buckshot spread,

CobrayCommando · August 13, 2005, 08:29 PM

Yeah I'm tired of gunstore commandos claiming that beginners should buy a 12 gauge because you don't even have to aim with it.

Ingram · August 13, 2005, 08:46 PM

Yeah you can see proof of this myth being dispelled on the boxotruth website I believe.

ATW525 · August 13, 2005, 09:13 PM

In a home defense situation against a hostage taker, I think my first choice would be a 12 guage slug. I think the slugs will offer better terminal ballistics after penetrating intermediate cover such as wives or children (luckily both of which are replacable... and luckier still, I have neither so I can get away with classifying them as expendable and not having to sleep on the couch

).

In all seriousness, however, I think you're on the right track with the handgun for interior defense. A shotgun or rifle (or both!

) make a good addition to the bedroom, though, incase you need to barricade yourself in there and wait for help.

Para Bellum · August 14, 2005, 05:59 AM

the steyr-site is up again. Here you can see, that with the new AUG-Z you can mont sights pretty close to the barrel axis...

357SIG · August 17, 2005, 04:27 AM

If you want short range precision ( "hostage situation" ) and less noise than .223 why not a 9mm/40S&W carbine like the Beretta CX4 with a Red Dot scope?

It's compact, well-built, extremely precise.

mrcalm7 · August 17, 2005, 07:17 AM

I think he wants to buy the Steyr AUG-Z. In my opinion he should. I wouldn't waste the money, but if he wants to, he should. If you want accuracy at close range, it's hard to beat a Wilson Combat or Kimber or Ed Brown. But hey, I like the racking of the shotgun. It's as much of a deterrent as it is effective.

Glenn E. Meyer · August 17, 2005, 11:45 AM

Para Bellum - sorry if I came off like a crank and snotty. I can get too preachy at time.

Who cares why? I should be more polite when I give advice, which is worth what you paid for it.

shield20 · August 17, 2005, 12:10 PM

I just read in an AR-15 magazine about using the .223 (AR carbine specifically) for CQB, and they tested a standard round that wouldn't penetrate interior walls - seems like it would be just right for home defense, and allow more options at longer ranges too.

Para Bellum · August 17, 2005, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Para Bellum - sorry if I came off like a crank and snotty. I can get too preachy at time.

Who cares why? I should be more polite when I give advice, which is worth what you paid for it.

Glenn,

no problem at all. I behave the same somtimes. Since I am married, I don't get away with it as often as I used to, though...

back to the guns. I am still struggling. Since I do have a double barrel 12ga, I tend more towards the .223. And there is another alternative that interests me:
The Remington 7615 pump-rifle with 15 rounds of .223:

http://www.remingtonle.com/rifles/7615.htm

It's not a semi-auto, but I guess pretty reliable and (much) cheaper than the AUG....
one more option to increase my dilemma

Cato · August 28, 2005, 12:56 PM

I own a Remington 870, AUG-Z and OA15A-M4 and have had training by TacticalResponse- and I say, go with the 5.56.

The 5.56 beats the shotgun in terms of one handed operation, shot to shot speed, hit probability, recoil, ballistic vest penetration, mag capacity, reloading speed. With 75gr. TAP ammo, it is not far behind the shotgun in terms of wound ballistics.
The M4 may has an edge in mag change speed, ergonomics and when shooting from the wrong shoulder (left barricade shooting), but the AUG-Z has an edge due to its compactness. I had the barrel cut back to 16" and re-profiled. Now that is a CQB package, which still has power to reach out to 150m.

Envision yourself coming home and being attacked on your entrance into your home. You wrestle with the bad guy and your wife/girlfriend comes to your aid. Would you rather outfit her with a shotgun or AUG/M4?

Envision yourself walking up to a noise and having to gather your children in a safe room. Would you rather have the cumbersome, heavy, two hand operated shotgun or an AUG?

Yes, noise & blast is a problem, but when one avoids a muzzle break and stores electronic hearing pro nearby, it can be overcome.

The only bad thing is that weapon mounted flashlights aren't allowed here.

CarbineCaleb · August 28, 2005, 01:05 PM

Cato: It looks like there are two separate optical sights inline on the rail on your gun? Is that true? If so, why is it configured that way?

Cato · August 28, 2005, 01:11 PM

Hi! That is the new Aimpoint 3x behind an Aimpoint M3 red dot sight. The 3x basically gives you the ability to reach out farther and is QD. On the other pic there is my S&B Short Dot 1.1-4x20 mounted.

CarbineCaleb · August 28, 2005, 01:30 PM

Cato: Hm! very cool - I didn't know that you had that much flexibility with these optics - nice idea!

Best,
Caleb

Bud Light · August 31, 2005, 12:24 PM

The big reason LEO have gone away from shotguns or at least buckshot is liability. You typically have 9 pellets and a wad thats allot to account for in an urban enviroment. It was not that the shotgun did not kill people.

Both are good choices for various reasons. Its nice to have a chioce.

CobrayCommando · August 31, 2005, 02:50 PM

It's not only that, but carbines are more tacticool now.

August 12, 2005, 01:21 PM	#27
625 Senior Member Join Date: May 3, 2005 Location: PA Posts: 858	Get the shotgun and buy 10,000 or so shells with the money you saved. Don't those Steyr AUG's have crappy triggers, anyway? __________________ I don't believe in a government that protects us from ourselves. Ronald Reagan

August 12, 2005, 01:45 PM	#28
Duxman Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2005 Location: VA Posts: 1,294	12 ga autoloader.... Famous line from terminator....I would go with the 12 ga as well. If you fear the Hostage situation, I think it would quickly de-esclate once you cycle your 12 ga shotgun.

August 12, 2005, 02:27 PM	#30
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	As the former lead instructor for my agency, which issued the AUG, let me add my bit. One problem with the AUG (other than cost), is the high sight line above the bore. At very close ranges, given your hostage rescue scenario, this is a problem. Also, the 'rear' ejection can be a problem if you are, say, right handed, but the only cover is to your right. Both of these issues can be overcome with training. While I own a AUG and a shotgun, I would go to a handgun for interior defense. I live a long way (2 miles) off the road, so a rifle is fine for exterior defense in my case. In fact, many police entry teams have gone to handguns for entry, for greater manuverability inside structures. I think that the funds to buy either of these long guns may be better spent on more handgun training. And I do believe the AUG is the finest 5.56 rifle extant. __________________ Sleuth

August 12, 2005, 03:11 PM	#31
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	Sleuth, thanks for your input. The high sight-system also botheres me, but I can go for the AUG-Z with a picantinny-rail and mount a low scope. Unfortunately I can't reach the steyr-webiste at the moment - I'd have posted a picture... Struggling with that decision back and forth, I also came to the conclusion that indoors I'd trust my handgun. Accuracy is well enough and I sure don't have the problem with too different sight/barrel axises. And, it's on my hip 24/7. But I think I'd still get the Remington or a Benelli autoloader for my wife as a first home-defense gun. So, the next decision, Benelli or Remington.... So, thank you all for your time and thought! Stay safe and sound. __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

August 12, 2005, 03:18 PM	#32
Sleuth Senior Member Join Date: September 27, 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 445	The problem is not the sight base. Since there is zero drop to the stock, your facial structure will dictate how high the sight will have to be. You just cannot get a really low sighting plane with an AUG. __________________ Sleuth

August 12, 2005, 02:04 PM	#29
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Hank Hill Voice Oh Lord....

August 12, 2005, 05:06 PM	#33
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Parabellum, you accepted as truth statments that were factually wrong about shotgun usage. That was the basis of my opinion. I will say again that if you make a decision on incorrect information - I'm not convinced. Shotguns at close range (house) do not have a higher probability of a hit. 223s vs buckshot haven't shown that buckshot is convincing a better round. 223s are only suited for 50 yards - where did that come from? Police are switching away from shotguns. You don't see major military issuing shotguns except for special purposes. It's crap. Take a handgun and you will be able to rescue hostages at close range. What is the basis of the differential use of handgun have to do with a shotgun vs. AR debate? You can make a selective shot with a AR easier than with a shotgun where you have to worry about pattern. Are you really suggesting that carrying a shotgun, you will really transition to a shotgun just to make a precise shot? Take makes no sense. Since these problems were obvious to me, I suggested your acceptance of the shotgun selection to not be the wisest. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

August 13, 2005, 04:29 PM	#35
Hard Ball Senior Member Join Date: November 28, 1999 Location: California Posts: 3,925	If you want to use a shotgun for home defense take it to the range and pattern it at ranges from 5. 10, 15 and 20 yards WITH THE BUCKSOT LOAD YOU INTEND TO USE!. You will be surprised at the distances required to get a significant buckshot spread, __________________ "I swear to defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemeis domestic or foreign WHOMSOEVER."

August 13, 2005, 08:29 PM	#36
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	Yeah I'm tired of gunstore commandos claiming that beginners should buy a 12 gauge because you don't even have to aim with it.

August 13, 2005, 08:46 PM	#37
Ingram Junior member Join Date: August 13, 2005 Posts: 121	Yeah you can see proof of this myth being dispelled on the boxotruth website I believe.

August 13, 2005, 09:13 PM	#38
ATW525 Senior Member Join Date: March 14, 2005 Location: Concord, NH Posts: 2,723	In a home defense situation against a hostage taker, I think my first choice would be a 12 guage slug. I think the slugs will offer better terminal ballistics after penetrating intermediate cover such as wives or children (luckily both of which are replacable... and luckier still, I have neither so I can get away with classifying them as expendable and not having to sleep on the couch ). In all seriousness, however, I think you're on the right track with the handgun for interior defense. A shotgun or rifle (or both! ) make a good addition to the bedroom, though, incase you need to barricade yourself in there and wait for help.

August 14, 2005, 05:59 AM	#39
Para Bellum Senior Member Join Date: January 7, 2005 Location: right there Posts: 1,882	Low scope mount on new Steyr AUG-Z no problem... the steyr-site is up again. Here you can see, that with the new AUG-Z you can mont sights pretty close to the barrel axis... __________________ Si vis pacem - para bellum If you want peace - prepare for war

August 17, 2005, 04:27 AM	#40
357SIG Senior Member Join Date: January 19, 2005 Posts: 137	If you want short range precision ( "hostage situation" ) and less noise than .223 why not a 9mm/40S&W carbine like the Beretta CX4 with a Red Dot scope? It's compact, well-built, extremely precise.

August 17, 2005, 07:17 AM	#41
mrcalm7 Member Join Date: June 23, 2004 Location: East Coast Posts: 34	I think he wants to buy the Steyr AUG-Z. In my opinion he should. I wouldn't waste the money, but if he wants to, he should. If you want accuracy at close range, it's hard to beat a Wilson Combat or Kimber or Ed Brown. But hey, I like the racking of the shotgun. It's as much of a deterrent as it is effective. __________________ Force overcome by force. (Vi Victa Vis) Cicero Last edited by mrcalm7; August 17, 2005 at 07:20 AM. Reason: spelling

August 17, 2005, 11:45 AM	#42
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Para Bellum - sorry if I came off like a crank and snotty. I can get too preachy at time. Who cares why? I should be more polite when I give advice, which is worth what you paid for it. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

August 17, 2005, 12:10 PM	#43
shield20 Senior Member Join Date: April 13, 2005 Location: Hudson Valley, New York Posts: 1,371	I just read in an AR-15 magazine about using the .223 (AR carbine specifically) for CQB, and they tested a standard round that wouldn't penetrate interior walls - seems like it would be just right for home defense, and allow more options at longer ranges too.

August 28, 2005, 12:56 PM	#45
Cato Member Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: Austria/Europe Posts: 64	I own a Remington 870, AUG-Z and OA15A-M4 and have had training by TacticalResponse- and I say, go with the 5.56. The 5.56 beats the shotgun in terms of one handed operation, shot to shot speed, hit probability, recoil, ballistic vest penetration, mag capacity, reloading speed. With 75gr. TAP ammo, it is not far behind the shotgun in terms of wound ballistics. The M4 may has an edge in mag change speed, ergonomics and when shooting from the wrong shoulder (left barricade shooting), but the AUG-Z has an edge due to its compactness. I had the barrel cut back to 16" and re-profiled. Now that is a CQB package, which still has power to reach out to 150m. Envision yourself coming home and being attacked on your entrance into your home. You wrestle with the bad guy and your wife/girlfriend comes to your aid. Would you rather outfit her with a shotgun or AUG/M4? Envision yourself walking up to a noise and having to gather your children in a safe room. Would you rather have the cumbersome, heavy, two hand operated shotgun or an AUG? Yes, noise & blast is a problem, but when one avoids a muzzle break and stores electronic hearing pro nearby, it can be overcome. The only bad thing is that weapon mounted flashlights aren't allowed here.

August 28, 2005, 01:05 PM	#46
CarbineCaleb Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2004 Posts: 2,745	Cato: It looks like there are two separate optical sights inline on the rail on your gun? Is that true? If so, why is it configured that way? __________________ “Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.” Niels Bohr

August 28, 2005, 01:11 PM	#47
Cato Member Join Date: October 14, 1998 Location: Austria/Europe Posts: 64	Hi! That is the new Aimpoint 3x behind an Aimpoint M3 red dot sight. The 3x basically gives you the ability to reach out farther and is QD. On the other pic there is my S&B Short Dot 1.1-4x20 mounted.

August 28, 2005, 01:30 PM	#48
CarbineCaleb Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2004 Posts: 2,745	Cato: Hm! very cool - I didn't know that you had that much flexibility with these optics - nice idea! Best, Caleb __________________ “Never express yourself more clearly than you are able to think.” Niels Bohr

August 31, 2005, 12:24 PM	#49
Bud Light Junior Member Join Date: August 21, 2005 Posts: 14	The big reason LEO have gone away from shotguns or at least buckshot is liability. You typically have 9 pellets and a wad thats allot to account for in an urban enviroment. It was not that the shotgun did not kill people. Both are good choices for various reasons. Its nice to have a chioce.

August 31, 2005, 02:50 PM	#50
CobrayCommando Junior member Join Date: November 21, 2004 Posts: 1,631	It's not only that, but carbines are more tacticool now.