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Old December 12, 2012, 01:31 AM   #26
SPEMack618
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Originally Posted by Koda94
is it just me, or does it seem that the trend of public shootings does not discriminate against social status?

I agree, Happy Valley is a nice neighborhood. I live in Portland and am devastated by the news.
I took a criminal behavior class a couple of semesters ago and we discussed mass shooters and how they can occur any place and any time, it is a matter of prespective and how the media portrays it. My text book stated that mass shooters struck at targets that were soft, populated, and would make headlines. Malls, schools, etc. Which I, personally to be consider class neutral.

To further this, I read an editorial on the Chicago Tribune's online page today as I was doing my happy dance about the 7th's ruling. The author was sprouting the typical anti-gun "streets will be chaos" propaganda. What was striking to me was a comment left by another reader:
"How is this different from what Chicago already is?"

Further note, somwhat directed at Captain Stuart in regards to his daughter, or Glenn who used to live there, from what I've been reading, the mall was a posted gun free zone.
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Old December 12, 2012, 01:34 AM   #27
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This was the story that touched me. All the other ones I read were just like, well, reading the news, but this one for some reason made it a bit more real. I live just a few miles from there. http://www.oregonlive.com/clackamasc...hooting_4.html
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Old December 12, 2012, 03:37 AM   #28
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Well Servo...

Think about what usually happens almost on que when one of these mass shootings takes place...the Anti-gunners use the dead bodies to fuel their movement.

Anti-gunners are the group that have the most to gain from such acts.

Also note that the majority of such cases happen in a posted "Gun-free Zone" (besides the fact that the shooters while crazy aren't stupid) such zones are championed as the ultimate "cure" for the "sickness" and thus more of the same can continue to happen,a snowball effect if you will.

Even though it can be shown time and time again that the reason these places were picked is due to the "Gun-Free Zone" status.

That is why no matter how many times pro-gunners bring up the issue of the "G.F.Z's" not working,Anti's plug their ears,or ignore what is typed and go on about why "G.F.Z's" other other restrictive rules are the best answer.

The only other reason I can think of is that the Anti-gunners are really that stupid.
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Old December 12, 2012, 09:22 AM   #29
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Pfletch, In this case, I understand this mall does not ban CCW. One poster mentioned his daughter being there but she left her firearm in the car...

Her daddy wasn't real happy with that part...

On that note... The daughter just might be in a pictuew shown on Fox news...

It was stated that the pic was from inside a pet store and several younger ladies are in the frame...

Brent
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Old December 12, 2012, 09:47 AM   #30
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Just called to check on my Daughter, she pretty much lives in that mall. Sure enough the little idiot was in the pet store with one of her 7 dogs.
I'm glad she is ok.
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Old December 12, 2012, 09:49 AM   #31
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Was just listening to FOX News. They say the rifle jammed and that may have saved a lot of people. Q? How did he manage to shoot himself with a gun that was "jammed"?
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Old December 12, 2012, 10:09 AM   #32
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It's just sad that there are people like this. I can't even begin to conceive why someone would want to do something like this.
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Old December 12, 2012, 10:19 AM   #33
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On that note... The daughter just might be in a pictuew shown on Fox news...

It was stated that the pic was from inside a pet store and several younger ladies are in the frame...
Yeah that's my idiot daughter, (Lower Left in dark jacket). The one WITHOUT the gun.

I spend a lot of time at that may, when I visit Portland, while my kids are at work I hang out at REI and B&N at the Star bucks, drinking coffee and reading. I've never seen a sign regarding no guns. I've always had mine, as does my daughter (when I'm there).

The thing is, Her brother's a Fed Cop in Portland, he grandpa is a retired Portland Cop, her uncle is a Clackamas County Deputy, her Cousin is a Happy Valley Cop,..........they all give her crap all the time for leaving the gun in the car, so I don't think they are concerned about her getting in trouble with for having a gun in the Mall.


Now to my daughter's defense (excluding not having a gun) she did good.

I worked with her on home defense. Found her a safe spot behind her bed (with her 7 dogs), where via security cameras, she can watch the whole house. She can tell it is the bandit or responding cops coming to her bedroom door. She also keeps another gun in that area. And we been working on her shooting.

She assured me last night that is what she was doing in the pet store, they were in a Office/store room area where they could see the store proper in case someone enters the store.

Of course being the grumpy daddy, I reminded her one AH crap (no gun) wipes out the "atta Girl".

Heck of a way to become a TV Star.

Moral of the story, THERE IS NO SAFE PLACES. If you ever been to the Clackamas Mall, you'd think that would be the last place on earth for such incidents.

For those who don't know, the Clackamas County Sheriff's office is about a block from the Mall, they also have an indoor range open to the public where we shoot. Real nice range. The put on several CCW & SD classes.

Its a pretty richy part of Portland. Shame some idiot has to screw it up.
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Last edited by hogdogs; December 12, 2012 at 11:00 AM. Reason: swapped profanity filter word for more acceptable...
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Old December 12, 2012, 10:25 AM   #34
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Moral of the story, THERE IS NO SAFE PLACES.
This is truth. The thought of a safe place where you won't need to defend yourself is a myth. No matter where you are, there are crazy people who may, or may not doing something stupid like this shooting.

When I first heard that the gunman was dead, I was hoping (against hope, mind you) that a lawful CCW'er had done it. That could have potentially been something that would have helped the case we've been making all along. Instead, the mall (like all the malls in my area, unfortunately) will probably turn to No Guns Allowed because we all know that keeps criminals with guns out.
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Old December 12, 2012, 11:35 AM   #35
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I used to carry there but that was years ago.

Second, there is no useful contribution to say antigunners were behind this. Please spare us unsubstantiated paranoia.

It is also not the case that such incidents happen more in gun free zones. While some shooters have been found to avoid places that have armed folks there, that is not a guarantee or predictor. Since many are sucidal (40%) kill themselves, it's not a consideration. We have shooters who attack police stations or tables of police in coffee shops or courthouses.

Defending the RKBA takes more than cliches - it take sophisticated thought. The reason for carry is that while there may be some deterrence, having a firearm gives you an another instrumentality for a better outcome possibility for the good guys side.

For example, the Tacoma Mall incident had armed citizens present - one who screwed up. As happened at the Tyler courthouse

Kraigwy - glad you daughter is ok. It's frightening to think about.

I recall wheeling the daughter as a baby around the place. Frightening.
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Old December 12, 2012, 12:39 PM   #36
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AND she confesses her pistol was left in the car.
All in all, I would say she is in the norm. Most CCW folks don't carry most of the time.

Glad it was not of consequence to her vIsit to the mall and that she is okay. Wow.
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Old December 12, 2012, 01:06 PM   #37
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An informal take from a TX CHL instructors organization was that 80% don't carry. They wanted the CHL so they could have a legal car or truck gun.

I don't get that - what good is there for most interactions? Furthermore, the number of CHLs who train is very small.

It would nice if a CHL or CCW type acted wisely but that's a what if and doesn't do us much good here.
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Old December 12, 2012, 01:16 PM   #38
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It's kind of like terrorist.

They have to be ready once, we have to be ready 100% of the time.

Take into account, the Clackamas Sheriff's office is 1 block away from the Mall, they use the Mall to train for active shooter situations, LE was prepared.

AND, according to reports, from the time of the first call it took 22 minutes to secure the scene.

Something to think about.
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Old December 12, 2012, 01:24 PM   #39
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Think about what usually happens almost on que when one of these mass shootings takes place...the Anti-gunners use the dead bodies to fuel their movement.

Anti-gunners are the group that have the most to gain from such acts.
True, but if you drop a wallet with $500 and I find and keep it, that doesn't mean I picked it from your pocket.

Do the antis use tragedies like this for political gain? Yep. Is it tactless and grim? Yep. But we belittle ourselves by blaming them as the cause.

Quote:
Even though it can be shown time and time again that the reason these places were picked is due to the "Gun-Free Zone" status.
While many public shootings take place in gun-free zones, not all do. The Tuscon and Aurora shootings did not. Furthermore, I don't recall any of the surviving gunmen having explicitly said they deliberately chose gun-free zones. There are other factors.

While gun-free zones do make it easier for someone to do something like this, we can't prove causality.

Quote:
The only other reason I can think of is that the Anti-gunners are really that stupid.
That would be a dangerous mistake. They've got very smart people and very real money behind their cause, and their methods of distorting the truth are very effective.
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Old December 12, 2012, 01:29 PM   #40
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Fox News says the shooter's AR-15 rifle did jam and that he was able to get it working at least long enough to shoot himself.
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Old December 12, 2012, 01:43 PM   #41
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It seems to me that the criminals who commit these types of crimes are ,in part if not completely, motivated by the fame they know they will recieve after the fact.

Every news organization in the country is playing this story every hour, on the hour. The bad guys also seem to relish the fact that if they commit their crimes with controversial weapons, the airplay will even be greater.

Why must American society crave the endless news attention these nimrod's relish?
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Old December 12, 2012, 02:03 PM   #42
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They need to find the person who's ar was stolen and hold him/her accountable for this as well. If that person would have secured their weapon properly this tradegy may have been avoided.
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Old December 12, 2012, 02:06 PM   #43
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They need to find the person who's ar was stolen and hold him/her accountable for this as well.
I hadn't heard it was stolen. Do you have a source?
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Old December 12, 2012, 02:10 PM   #44
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I hadn't heard it was stolen. Do you have a source?
In the News conference the Clackamas County Sheriff did say the weapon was stolen.


BUT

I don't see how the owner could be held responsable.
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Old December 12, 2012, 02:21 PM   #45
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They need to find the person who's ar was stolen and hold him/her accountable for this as well.
So if a thug steals your car, runs over someone killing them, should you be held accountable???

Quote:
If that person would have secured their weapon properly this tradegy may have been avoided.
There are not very many ways to 100% secure anything we own, guns included.

While it is my responsibility to secure my belongings as best I can, if someone breaks into my house and steals something then goes out and commits a crime with it, please explain how I should be held accountable.
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Old December 12, 2012, 02:33 PM   #46
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The criminologists and psychologists (as I said before) are pretty much in agreement that some rampage shooters are influenced by past accounts. They study fan sites for Columbine and VT. They buy gear from the stores that sold such to the previous killers.

The 'if it bleeds, it leads' media view will keep up the flow. Every time you see a crying loved one, it reinforces some of the shooters who want to generate that pain - even after their own death. It is either that they enjoy as a revenge fantasy or want to teach society a lesson - and it can be both.

Of course, the 1st Amend. protects such stories as well it should. Whether media should use discretion is a market place issue.

However, the motivations are complex and just fame or antigun plots don't capture it.
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Old December 12, 2012, 03:03 PM   #47
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I don't get that - what good is there for most interactions?
I had a defensive instructor who certainly agreed with you. While you may be attacked in your car, if you are attacked, chances are largely that it will be somewhere else and so a gun or pepperspray in your car will do you no good.

Quote:
Fox News says the shooter's AR-15 rifle did jam and that he was able to get it working at least long enough to shoot himself.
The malfunctioning of firearms has played a role in several shootings, often with quite negative consequences for the ill-trained bad guys, but sometimes for ill-trained good guys.

There were two (that I know of) in the North Hollywood Shootout. One was a stovepipe of the AK carried by the bad guy who walked and he discarded the gun when it happened and was soon dead. The other was by one of the SWAT officers who rolled up on the other guy in the white car. His was in his M4 and in the video you can see him roll out behind the squad car to fire, have a problem, roll back behind 'cover' over the car, and the roll out again and start firing. For him, the only problem was losing a few seconds of battle.

Malfunctions experienced by bad guys seem to often take the wind out of their sails.
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Old December 12, 2012, 03:08 PM   #48
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I find it interesting that the AR15 was stolen.
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Old December 12, 2012, 03:43 PM   #49
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While many public shootings take place in gun-free zones, not all do. The Tuscon and Aurora shootings did not. Furthermore, I don't recall any of the surviving gunmen having explicitly said they deliberately chose gun-free zones.
You are correct that the Tucson shooting did not occur in a gun free zone. Most classify this as a mass shooting. In reality, it was an assassination attempt. There was one CCW'er carrying in the Walgreens next door to the Safeway. His name is Joe Zamudio and I've met him (he shoots regularly at the range I shoot at). If he had been on scene 10 seconds earlier, it's likely he would have saved lives. But by the time he was on scene, the brave heroes who were there had already disarmed the attacker.

However, the Aurora, CO shooting was different. The municipality of Aurora had a strict law on carrying guns (basically impossible). The thing about it is it's unenforced because of Colorado's preemption law. The movie theater, however, had a "no gun" policy in affect. Even though in CO, no gun signs do not have force of law (you can be asked to leave if your gun is spotted) many people don't realize this. Technically, guns were not allowed in that theater. However, it wouldn't have been illegal for someone to be carrying. If we're looking to "no gun" areas as being a possible motive, the shooter might not have known the law well enough to know that it was legal to carry there.

I basically agree with you that "no guns" is not always a motive. But it's interesting how the majority (there's always an exception) of mass shootings occur in places where guns are not allowed. Ft. Hood (even though it's military, very few, if any Military bases allow anyone to carry except for MPs), Columbine, VT, Norway (the killer chose the location specifically because he knew LEO response would be slow, and no one had a means to protect themselves). There's more than that, and a common thread is that they occur in areas that don't allow guns. Whether that's part of the motive is up for debate. It could be because mass murder attempts in areas that allow concealed carry are stopped before they get bad. Maybe not, I don't know.
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Old December 12, 2012, 07:01 PM   #50
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But it's interesting how the majority (there's always an exception) of mass shootings occur in places where guns are not allowed.
I don't think you have proof of this claim. I am fairly confident that most mass shootings do not occur in gun free zones. They most often occur in non-public areas and garner little press coverage. They actually happen quite regularly and don't even get much play in the media or here.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=499623

Turns out, a lot are familial and domestic violence, often occurring in homes of gun owners. We don't discuss them very much. Heck, most of us don't expect our neighbor, father, uncle, mother, etc. to all of a sudden try to kill us all, but if they do, it tends to be somewhat localized and often much worse of than this failed mass shooting at the Oregon mall (usually defined and 4 or more shootees in a given even or event series, not including the shooter).
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