Handgun for brown-bear defense any real experience?

[PeaceOfficer]

While I'm no hunter, I would think the issue at hand here is which bullet is the most likely to get a CNS or broken bone shot. Once you find a list of acceptable bullets, the next priority would most likely be choosing the one you could shoot at the highest rate of fire. The last priority would be finding one with the largest capacity of rounds.

Some would prefer a revolver, due to the opinion of most that they would likely get off no more than 4-5 shots.

[MeekAndMild]

The shotgun slug outpenetrates everything but the 45-70.

IIRC the only 45/70 revolver that is really designed to take the punishment is the Magnum Research BFR. But it is a single action, designed for hunting. I think that what we're looking for here is either a DAO semiautomatic without an external safety or a DA revolver.

The main point I see here is that when the bear jumps out you don't want to think about things, you just want to have a gun that you aim and pull the trigger. I don't know any modern shotgun made that has a 'pure panic' DAO/no external safety mode.

[Rich Lucibella]

500 Linebaugh.
Hamilton Bowen conversion of Ruger Redhawk.
4' Barrel
Ashley Mid Dot Sights
Lanyard
One Ounce of lead at 1300 FPS; the ballistics of the original 45-70 rifle round.

Mean, ugly, unforgiving...and also completely recoiless and full auto when a Bear is at spit swapping distance.

YMMV....but I got mine!
Rich

[Eghad]

I saw a video about a black bear invading a manhattan Suburb. According toi the video human food is like viagra for black bears, increasing the birthrate. It said California went from 5,000 Black Bears to around 35,000 now

Guess we might be able to purchase backyard hunting liscenses before long...lol

"A big black bear spent Tuesday morning in a tree above the courtyard of a condominium complex and as many as 400 people spent Tuesday morning watching it.

The show was over by 1:15 p.m., when an officer from the state Department of Environmental Conservation shot the bear, an estimated 300-pounder, with a tranquilizer dart, said Officer Paul Deoul of the Spring Valley police. It tumbled 25 feet to the ground but was unhurt, he said."

A big black bear spent Tuesday morning in a tree above the courtyard of a condominium complex and as many as 400 people spent Tuesday morning watching it.

The show was over by 1:15 p.m., when an officer from the state Department of Environmental Conservation shot the bear, an estimated 300-pounder, with a tranquilizer dart, said Officer Paul Deoul of the Spring Valley police. It tumbled 25 feet to the ground but was unhurt, he said.

http://www.1010wins.com/pages/43499.php?

[Socrates]

Let's see. Brown bears differ in size.
Guy in this picture is 6 feet tall. These are russian bears.



You sound like a police officer, or mil, so carrying a full auto 9mm might be annoying enough, and quick enough, to turn a bear, but, it might also just piss them off. Hitting a bear with a half pound of lead, or jacketed bullets, in full auto, might deter the attack. I assume that's what that 33 round mag is for, a selective fire handgun?

A word about Penetration. I have a .510 Linebaugh Maximum, that shoots 525 grain bullets, at up to 1550 fps. Yes, it is the most powerful handgun in the world, S&W jive to the contrary. That generates about 2600 ft-lbs of energy, and, about 52 inches of bear penetration.

You can download that same bullet, to say, 1100 fps, and have it be MORE effective then at the higher velocity, with the same penetration. While no bears, this round has been used on bovines up to 1600 pound asian buffalo, with devastating results. These bullets hit with about the same effect on cape buffalo, etc. as a 375 H&H rifle.

That said, in our area, two monster bears, read 12-1400 pounds, both took 11 rounds of 375 H&H, before going down.

S&W guys are using a 700 grain bullet, but, stabilizing it can be a problem:


http://i45.invalid-sanitized.localho...yportrait3.jpg


.510 Maximum, target grade accuracy .475 Linebaugh, done on FA 83 by Jack Huntington., 45/454 Seville done by Linebaugh/Huntington, 45 Supers, and 357 snubby.
I'd carry one of the smaller guns to stuff in the bears mouth, after the 9mm didn't work. OH, my smallest gun
has ballistics equal to, or superior to your 9mm, and, I think that's just a stop the pain gun after the bear gets to me, or, at least disrupt his dinner with a little lead in the teeth.

My point simply is that your idea of a 'deep penetrating bullet' used against humans, becomes a shallow penetrating bullet, or no penetration, on a large brown bear. I've never heard
of a 9mm bullet coming even close to these guns in penetration tests, and, they can certainly be turned by a large browns bones.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/lineba...tion.tests.asp

If you look at the above tests, the closest you come to 9mm is .38 special, with 8" of paper penetration. Giving
it a big boost in speed, figure maybe, it will go 16" in newspaper, and bone. The .500's give you about 4 FEET, or 48-52" inches, with hard cast bullets, or solids. The .475's are no joke, and, the 44 or 45's with 325-360 grain flat nosed bullets will go 38" inches of cape buffalo. Observed hits on bovine indicate the big bullets are REALLY noticed, and take affect, and may turn, and get the animals attention.

I hope your gun goes full auto.

S
PS
Another alternative is a Ruger #1, in 510 Wells. That's a 6 pound rifle, with a blown out weatherby 460 case, to 510.
It will recoil enough to knock you out of the bears path, and, if you hit the bear, it's going to knock him, and you, down, at the same time. Chances are, he's going to get right back up, but, at least you'll have time to aim, perhaps reload, and hit him again. My point is, in a bear charge, you need a rifle that will hit the bear hard enough to knock him down, so you can place your second shot, accurately. A double rifle, starting in 450 N2 is the starting point, and, the 458 Lott is the most economical
stopping rifle going. People also hotrod .458 winmags, and, with 500 grain bullets, at 2150 fps, they are starting
stoppers. Shotguns just don't have the penetration, or energy, to really knock down a bear.

PPS
IIRC, the 9mm that broke the 'bear's' leg, was on a cub brown bear.

[moose fat]

Bigger is Better and avoidance is even better yet.

Its salmon fishing season here on the Yukon, the fish racks have salmon drying and the smoke houses are are mostly full of smoked fish. Reading all these threads started me thinking about how I deal with bears.

I live, work and play surounded by bears, big ones, little ones, black ones and brown ones. There is a zillion square miles of country for bears to roam around in and they go where-ever they want to, like through and around our village especially now. No bears yet but, when they are seen somebody usually makes an anouncement on the VHF radio to warn parents to keep track of the children. We keep track of where and when, if its just passing through or raiding someones smoke house. We know about where it is.

Para bellum , if you're going for a walk in the woods find out if any one has seen it and go in the opposite direction. If it, your picture showed momma and baby bear (definately stay away ), is hanging around a certain area most likely because of a food source. Don't go there.

The Obvious,

Now, if you are walking in the woods;
Make noise, anounce your pressence give Mr. Bear a chance to get off the trail. Use your senses look for signs/tracks,old or new. Take a guess at how old, you'll be close. Bears stink (!) like a wet dog. I smelled one over a quarter mile away. They like to root under logs, they sound like a pig rooting and snuffling. Baby bears sound like a goat bleating or a baby crying, if you hear that turn around and leave . Bears have poor eye sight, make it notice you, don't startle it thats when they may attack or run away, usually they run away, usually.

Avoidance! Hope this helps

[Para Bellum]

While I'm no hunter, I would think the issue at hand here is which bullet is the most likely to get a CNS or broken bone shot. Once you find a list of acceptable bullets, the next priority would most likely be choosing the one you could shoot at the highest rate of fire. The last priority would be finding one with the largest capacity of rounds.

Some would prefer a revolver, due to the opinion of most that they would likely get off no more than 4-5 shots.

That's exactly what I meant.
Thank you all for your time an thought.
Recently that specific bear I am thinking about has entered several villages and was seen by a large number of ordinary citizens in a densely populated area. Authorities now allowed shooting that bear. I don't think he will be an easy target...

[ninemm]

A Guide here in the US told me he thought a short barreled 357 mag was the best backup for black bear. He said your obvective should be to pull the trigger as fast as you can and put as many rounds as possible into the bear. He also recommended using the largest cast bullet you could handle in 357 and to not use something that was too much for you.

Welcome to the the Forum moose fat. What do you do that allows you to work, live and play around all of those bears?

[Socrates]

Ross Seyfried killed a buffalo with a gun identical to my .45 Seville. He used a 345 grain Kieth style bullet, at 1550 fps, in .45. The buffalo wasn't real impressed. It charged from 25 yards, taking 6 shots, and, dieing at a range of 2 feet. I figure cape buffalo, and a large brown bear to be real close as far as speed, and toughness. Ross was one of the best shooters on the planet at the time, and the buffalo still almost got him.

Why anyone would use a gun lesser then that is beyond me.
Why anyone would not take advantage of the .475's, and .500
's, and their stopping bullets, for a brown or buffalo, is also beyond me.


S

[moose fat]

Wow, are these the problem bears? Bruno was shot this a.m., I just read on an internet home page.

So Momma, three baby bears and big brother are still cruising around.

I think 9mm is too small. But, that is what you got. You can shoot lots and fast. What has to happen, is to stop the attack. Operative idea, stopping the attack. A charging bear will be comming at you, head, shoulders,a little bit of back and a little bit of the chest. Shoot dead in the middle of that sight picture. Don't stop shooting untill the attack is stopped.

What I carry when my family and I are out on the tundra berry picking, or swimming in the river is my .44mag S&W Mountain Gun and an 870 Rem. w/18"riffled slug barrel, full of slugs.

I practice and try to be prepared. Walking in the woods, up in alpine forrests or on the tundra is still safer than walking down some city streets.

[Blammer]

Not Bloody Likely! But IF... I would
Carry a "Howda Pistol" .60 cal or better and announce my presence with BAGPIPES!!!

[moose fat]

I work in a village in bush Alaska.

[Socrates]

Mousefat:

Have you tried rap music, out of a boom box? I'm SURE that would clear the area for 100 miles.

S

[moose fat]

Whats' rap?

[FirstFreedom]

Just add a 'C' to the front, and that will explain it.

[Rich Lucibella]

Socrates-
Impressive collection. I have to be honest, though. My little 4" 500 Linebaugh absolutely destroyed my handgun shooting....took me nearly two years to relearn to shoot without occasional flinch. I'm now up to a 44 Mag with Garrett Hard Casts; I'd carry the Linebaugh in bear country without hesitation; but I'm not about to shoot it recreationally again.

All that said, and given the fact that you obviously know your big bores, please: more on the shooting experience with that monster .510 Linebaugh Maximum. Other than a shooting glove, are there any tricks to handling the recoil?
Rich

[4V50 Gary]

Rich - the same thing happened to me when I fired a non-ported .454 Casull. My wrists were shot after that and even a full powered .44 Magnum felt mild in comparison. Porting helps but if I'd also contact the ATF to affix a shoulder stock because I'd rather be a sissy with good wrists than a macho man who couldn't hold a pencil after shooting a hand cannon.

[Harley Quinn]

The 50 is easier to shoot then the 44 Mag. revolver.
Anyone wanting a pretty good caliber, the gun helps with the recoil. I highly recommend it.

I have shot the DE, they are easy on the wrist, but hard on the pocket book

HQ

[razorburn]

What's a boom box? You mean a subwoofer?

[Art Eatman]

I admit to little experience with a Raging Bull in .454 Casull. However, I found that the Weaver Stance, into which I'd reflexively go in a panic situation, makes that revolver quite easy to shoot rapidly and accurately. The owner, who shoots hot loads on a regular basis, can shoot IPSC-speed double-taps to target center and 3" to 4" spread at ten to fifteen yards. IOW, achievable.

Art

[Bigfatts]

While I do not think that the theory of deep penetration of a 9mm on a bear would be sufficient to defend my family, nor myself, if you must do it I don't think it will make that much of a difference over a larger caliber handgun. Because by the time you hear or see the bear charging through the woods at you, identify it as a threat and not a random animal running away from you because you startled it, draw your handgun and are able to fire(if you are able to do ANYTHING other than deficate), the bear will be on top of you. Just stick the gun down his throat and give him a little heartburn before you're digested. Maybe you will distract the bear long enough for a member of your family to run and get a real gun.

[castnblast]

I have never been in bear country but I used to manage an indoor shooting range, and had a guy claim his 9mm was unloaded...after pointing it at me I asked him to point it away and open the chamber...It went off, and richocheted off the GLASS counter and went into the wall. No joke. Personally, I carry a 44 mag when out hunting...We have ferral hog and cougar. And If I were to go to Alaska, I wouldn't take anything less than a 454 casul or a S&W 50. The 50 is my top choice for this purpose, and was what the gun was designed for.

[Harley Quinn]

That is very entertaining information.

Many rounds superior to the nine in power, blah blah blah. But if you are restricted to that round (as the original poster is) Then what?

I believe it is moot, and always will be.

I always felt that if I was to jump out of an airplne with an extension cord I would never get to the ground (because they are always catching onto something)
Just my last thought on this subject.

HQ

[Death from Afar]

Very interesting thread.

You Americans have some SERIOUS wheelguns!

Wouldnt a short barrel pump gun be a better choice all the same? It would weigh about the same. and if you stoked it full of buckshot you could deal to any bear, and any one playing rap in the woods.

[Socrates]

Welcome to America. We have laws that make it very difficult to protect yourself. 3./4's of Kalifornia won't issue concealed weapons permits. If you are attacked, defend yourself, you can pretty much count on loosing the gun, and maybe your right to own, for 3 years. It's called probation, since you would be carrying the gun illegally, despite a justified self-defense shooting. Bears, most of the time, have more rights then we do, or, a federal law that says carrying a gun in a Federal park is illegal, much less using it to defend yourself, or love ones.
I said all that to point out that the minimum length for a shotgun is at least 16" IIRC, and, it maybe 18.

You roll your dice, and you take your chances. Each gets to pick the chips they bring to the table.

S