August 18, 2011, 09:39 AM | #1 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 21, 2009
Location: West Central Missouri
Posts: 2,592
|
Brass Failure
People have asked how many times they could reload a piece of brass before it fails or is no good.
I love the .45 Colt and that is what I mainly shoot. I have some .45 Colt brass that has been reloaded twelve times. I finally got a case failure on a piece of RP Brass that was on its eleventh reload. This is the first case failure that I have had in this caliber. I load mild, just a little about the cowboy action stuff. Nice little split down the side of the case. This case came from a batch of 200 that I had loaded up. None of the other brass seems to be affected. I think I have gotten my moneys worth out of that piece. (I have had .38 special and .357 Magnum failures, but it was with brass that was bought used. I have no way of know how many times it had been reloaded before I had gotten the cases.)
__________________
Inside Every Bright Idea Is The 50% Probability Of A Disaster Waiting To Happen. |
August 18, 2011, 09:48 AM | #2 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,381
|
I've got some .38 Special and .45 ACP brass that is at, or past, 50 loadings.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
August 18, 2011, 10:04 AM | #3 |
Senior Member
Join Date: June 14, 2004
Location: NY State
Posts: 6,575
|
From that description I'd say that it was an imperfection in the brass.Yes it happens sometimes.
__________________
And Watson , bring your revolver ! |
August 18, 2011, 10:34 AM | #4 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,061
|
Remington .45 ACP brass was always thin and hard and got brittle fast. I quit bothering to pick it up long ago. I never got more than a dozen loads out of it either, and often even fewer as it would work harden to the point my standard sizing die no longer squeezed it down enough to hold a bullet. But, like Mike, I've got cases with over 50 reloads through them. These are old Winchester brass and Starline and Top Brass. I recommend both Starline and Top Brass purchased new for handloading as both have about half the dimensional and weight variation of other brands I've measured and both are still made domestically.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
August 18, 2011, 10:36 AM | #5 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 27, 2010
Location: AR
Posts: 1,401
|
Buck, I too share your interest with 45 Colt. When I started loading the 45 many years ago, I used RP & WW because that was all that was available. I was lucky to get 7 loads per case. I never loaded hot; the brass was thin since the 45 was a low pressure number anyway.
Several years ago, I switched to Starline brass, I have some cases I have loaded 15 times. I have yet to see cracks as I have with RP & WW. IMHO, Starline is superior to the others at least in 45Colt. Although, I rarely go hot with the 45 Colt, I have loaded some warm loads for my old model Vaquero and the Starline brass has not failed. |
August 18, 2011, 12:25 PM | #6 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 24, 2011
Location: Southern Californis
Posts: 795
|
Uncle Buck:
A long time ago I conducted and experiment with twenty five rounds of Remington .41 magnum brass. I took my reloading equipment to the range. My objective was to shoot and reload them untill they failed. This was in the 1960's and I have lost my notes. The best that I can remember is the first case neck spllit on its seventh reloading and the last split on about the seventeenth reloading. The whole lot gave me about 385 reloads. Semper Fi. Gunnery sergeant Clifford L. Hughes USMC Retired |
August 18, 2011, 12:46 PM | #7 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 17, 2011
Posts: 606
|
My .45 Colt brass always gets stuffed with a full load of FFFg black powder that I slightly compress with a 250 grain lead bullet. It's a handful to shoot, but I'm up to 25 loadings with some of this brass now. No problems with splitting so far even though the headstamp lettering is becoming very faint.
|
August 18, 2011, 04:01 PM | #8 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 29, 2011
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 500
|
This occured recently on the first loading of RP new brass I bought about 1971 and had not used. Abnormality. Didn't even know it when I shot it. The other 49 have been loaded about four times so far, and no problems.
|
August 18, 2011, 06:50 PM | #9 |
Senior Member
Join Date: January 16, 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,577
|
45 ACP brass here loaded 12 times already and still going strong.
__________________
NRA Certified RSO NwCP- Performance Isn't Optional |
August 18, 2011, 08:41 PM | #10 |
Senior Member
Join Date: August 6, 2006
Location: Republic of Texas
Posts: 506
|
I actually had a .357 case pull into on the carbide sizing die. Just pulled right into about center ways. Never quite seen that particular failure before. I started using the lube pad again to twirl the very end of the case lightly to get a small 1/16" ring of lube around the case neck. With a carbide die this makes sizing a .357 case feel like it is a .22 magnum case. I now do all my long cases this way, it makes a 45 Colt feel like a 45 ACP in a steel die with lube. BTW I have not had a case failure on my 45 Colt shooting through the RedHawk. MAX loads all the time and the cases just keep going.
__________________
5.56mm, reach out and touch something. .458 SOCOM,reach out and knock something down. M70 Web Page |
August 18, 2011, 11:25 PM | #11 |
Senior Member
Join Date: July 6, 2010
Location: OTS
Posts: 1,035
|
I lost a 44 Mag SuperVel case this year but still have the other 19 so in 20+ years of using these cases. Each one has had at least 50 reloads. When the last one fails I might write about it if I'm still here
__________________
Experience is what you get when you don’t get what you want. |
August 19, 2011, 08:04 AM | #12 |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
|
When hand loading strait wall revolver cases, many people will have the tendency to over-flare and over-crimp. This along with normal sizing and firing over works the mouth of the case. If a person does not over-flare and over-crimp, and anneals the lot of the cases when the first one has a mouth split, the rest of the cases can have their useful life extended greatly. When the first one splits, it is almost a certainty that the rest of the lot have also become brittle in the mouth area.
Note on crimping: Look at a factory round to see how much crimp is required...very little. Do not use any more that you have to to keep the bullets from backing out under recoil...it over-works the brass unnecessarily. |
August 19, 2011, 08:52 AM | #13 |
Staff
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 41,381
|
"many people will have the tendency to over-flare and over-crimp."
Bingo. Taper crimping isn't nearly as bad as roll crimping, but it still stresses the case mouth.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower. |
August 19, 2011, 10:25 AM | #14 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 5,457
|
These conversations on crimp make me think of a flatland Yugo owner, trying to tell a Montana cowboy how many horsepower he needs to pull his 36 foot stock trailer up a five-mile grade.
The amount of crimp needed varies according to application and this is particularly relevant with range of guns, power levels and bullet weights available to .45 Colt users. But the crimp serves necessary purpose and it is but one stressing factor in the eventual and unavoidable failure of straight-wall cases. As Buck noted- Quote:
The fact is, if you are getting nearly a dozen uses out of any straight wall pistol case- you're doing just fine. If your loads are doing what you ask of them, don't change a thing.
__________________
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice. |
|
August 19, 2011, 01:26 PM | #15 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
|
Quote:
It is notable that "bullet pull" is not dependent upon the crimp alone (if at all), but with the tension provided by tight fit between the bullet and the neck of the cartridge case. My experiments with bullet crimping, forming a slight crimp despite the huge crimping groove on a Keith-type bullet, that even with very heavy loads, a light crimp keeps the bullets from backing out of the cases...and that is the purpose of a crimp on revolver cases. So, feel free to have at me and correct my ignorance. If a slight crimp keeps the bullet in place, why make a heavy crimp? |
|
August 19, 2011, 01:34 PM | #16 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
|
Quote:
|
|
August 19, 2011, 01:40 PM | #17 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 5,457
|
"If your loads are doing what you ask of them, don't change a thing."
__________________
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice. |
August 19, 2011, 01:41 PM | #18 |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,061
|
Dahermit,
Taking your posts in reverse: Some guys have gone to putting timers on hand-held induction heating tools to get very rapid annealing done. Don't even need water. However, where you have water, be aware that thermal conductivity of brass is high enough that it is unlikely any of the wet portion sees stress relief, nor even does it a short distance above the water line. Brass has to get to about 250°C (482°F) for grain refinement to begin, and water will be boiling off its surface long before it gets there if you really have enough heat to drive it to the water line. Regarding crimps, it depends on the gun and grip. A friend of mine who's also an Orange Hat family member got one of the titanium short barrel .45 Colts about the time Jeff Cooper got his to play with. He quickly found he could not shoot any commercial 250 grain bullet load in it without bullets backing out (and this is a big guy with big hands firmly behind the thing). If he shoots 200's he's good to go. He has to load his own 250's so he can put more crimp on them to prevent the problem. Folks with a lighter grip may experience the same issue even in somewhat heavier guns.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
August 19, 2011, 07:03 PM | #19 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: October 28, 2006
Location: South Central Michigan...near
Posts: 6,501
|
Quote:
Quote:
It is notable the even the heaviest of bullets 500 grains plus, in the biggest of the cases, .458 Winchester Magnum, .460 Weatherby, etc. only have very modest crimps...not like the case killer crimps often put on Keith-type cast handgun bullets because Elmer did things in an excessive way. Elmer was of the opinion that a "heavy crimp" was needed. But, factory crimps (very light), have shown that they are not required and they dramatically shorten case life. We should perhaps have a poll that asks the question: Have you ever had a bullet back out of a case when you applied a slight crimp? |
||
August 19, 2011, 07:30 PM | #20 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: August 25, 2008
Location: In the valley above the plain
Posts: 13,424
|
Quote:
Quote:
Some firearms (especially light weight pocket revolvers) just have quick acceleration under recoil, and tend to force bullets to jump crimp.
__________________
Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe. |
||
August 19, 2011, 07:31 PM | #21 |
Senior Member
Join Date: April 23, 2008
Location: Medina, Ohio
Posts: 273
|
I load & shoot a lot of 45 Colt (SASS). My initial supply was Remington cases, which I have loaded (medium crimp) 15 times with very little case loss, usually a wall split. I bought Starline to replace it but haven't needed to as yet. BTW, in over 50 years of loading mild to MAX in 357 and 44 Mag, I have never had a bullet jump the case.
__________________
God Bless America US Army, NRA Endowment TSRA Life, SASS |
August 19, 2011, 08:07 PM | #22 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 29, 2011
Location: Fort Worth
Posts: 500
|
I am sitting here looking at a .458 Win Mag, which I believe is a reload. It was one of about 15 I bought at an estate sale (Some of them were .375 H&H cases loaded with .458 bullets, some were .458 Win Mag cases loaded with .458 bullets.) It has NO crimp. Looking at from the front and side you can barely see the cannula in the bullet. From the side it is covered up.
|
August 19, 2011, 09:10 PM | #23 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 12, 2002
Location: MO
Posts: 5,457
|
I used to load a lot of .44 Mag with 300 grain Hunters Supply LBTs and enough W296 to kiss the base of the bullet, when seated in the crimping groove. When fired from a 4" Model 29-2, they could be counted upon to jump crimp unless the case mouth was buried in the bottom of that groove. Neck tension was not an issue; I had turned the expander button down 0.003 and there was plenty of neck tension. Inertia was the issue. In that application, it simply required more crimp to overcome it.
__________________
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice. |
August 19, 2011, 09:24 PM | #24 | |
Staff
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 21,061
|
Quote:
I don't think I've seen jacketed bullets back up in my guns, but they have a pretty good friction grip with the brass, so they aren't relying just on the crimp. Lubricated lead, though? I've had those back up in my 3" Charter Bulldog before. It was a 2400 load warm for the gun, and I recall my palm stinging a bit. But, yes, they backed up. Needed more crimp. I'll suggest a rule of thumb: If you can push a seated bullet deeper into the case with your thumb before applying the crimp and the load is fairly stout and the gun not very heavy, then there's a good chance you need a firm crimp. At the other end of the spectrum, I've shot lots of target wadcutters in .38 Special and .357 cases with nothing but a taper crimp and had no problem. The guns were not flyweights, though. I was never enamored of the snubbies.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle |
|
August 20, 2011, 06:03 AM | #25 |
Senior Member
Join Date: February 20, 1999
Location: home on the range; Vermont (Caspian country)
Posts: 14,324
|
old, man
I'm still using some 357 cases, nickeled, that I bought in 1976.
They were used then..... I use new cases ONLY when making social-use ammo, and stupids-n-nukes. I use used cases for funzies.
__________________
. "all my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo" |
|
|