Hawes 1851 Colt Navy barrel wedge problem

Winchester_73 · February 16, 2011, 07:30 AM

Last night I got a Hawes 1851 Colt navy. The gun was in pieces when I got it, so I quickly put it together but its not working perfectly. Everything is fine, until I fully install the barrel wedge, then the cylinder does not rotate. It seems as if its too tight. The hand catches but I can't cock the arm. The cylinder is actually so tight that I cannot even rotate it by hand after the wedge is installed. When the wedge is partway installed, it works fine but when I tap it in (with just a wooden mallet), the gun ceases to work. I tried oiling it, but nothing has helped. How can this be fixed? I imagine its something minor. Thanks.

Hawg · February 16, 2011, 07:34 AM

You're driving the wedge in too deep. On a new gun it should just be flush on the side opposite the screw.

Ben Towe · February 16, 2011, 07:38 AM

My Walker does this. Installed like Hawg says it functions perfectly. Others have told me this is a result of a short arbor. Perhaps some who have dealt with the problem will chime in as I have yet to perform the "fix" on mine.

Bill Akins · February 16, 2011, 07:50 AM

+1 What Hawg said.

.

junkman_01 · February 16, 2011, 09:44 AM

You need to fix it using this method...

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles...ers_Part_3.pdf

http://www.theopenrange.net/articles...ers_Part_4.pdf

Winchester_73 · February 16, 2011, 04:31 PM

Hawg,

I know this is definitely your neck of the woods, but I was wondering if there is any strength sacrificed by not pushing the wedge all the way in? I realized I could do that, but I thought what if it got jostled somehow, could it fall out or make the gun unsafe, such as, during holstering? Do you recommend the steps to fix this submitted by junkman01?

Hawg · February 16, 2011, 08:00 PM

I do recommend doing it but if the wedge is a good fit it won't fall out or move under recoil. It may loosen up over time and with repeated disassembly to the point it will have to be replaced tho.

pohill · February 16, 2011, 09:20 PM

On the original Colts, the wedge screw was used as a depth set for the wedge. Original Colts...I see this feature on my 1851 .36 made in 1862 but I have not seen it on the repros.

Hawg · February 16, 2011, 09:34 PM

Quote:

On the original Colts, the wedge screw was used as a depth set for the wedge. Original Colts...I see this feature on my 1851 .36 made in 1862 but I have not seen it on the repros.

It's there but serves no purpose other than to keep the wedge from coming all the way out when removing the barrel.

pohill · February 16, 2011, 10:46 PM

It's important to read what I wrote - I said in the original Colts the wedge screw acted as a depth set for the wedge (key), and that is taken right from a Colt patent, not my imagination. I've gotten into peeing contests on other forums over this, which is crazy because I'm only presenting facts.
Here is the link to the patent. Read the second column, first page, starting where it says "Figures 1,3, 4 and 5 represent the key." Read down to where it says, "As the key C is to act laterally as a wedge to draw the receiver and the barrel into proper contact, it is of importance that it should be checked when forced...etc." Read the next line.
Like I said, I did not make this up. Sam Colt did.

http://www.google.com/patents?id=bNI...epage&q&f=true

junkman_01 · February 16, 2011, 11:22 PM

That patent is apparently describing a Paterson type revolver and not later models. The wedges and function of the screw on later models is not what is described in this reference. If you notice and read the document, Colt employed TWO retaining screws AND an adjustment screw. This system does not appear on the later models of Colt open top guns.
If you want to start the pi$$ing contest again, keep posting this OUTDATED patent.

pohill · February 17, 2011, 06:39 AM

And so it goes. I post something and explain exactly what it is and what it means and someone who thinks they know more than they do, or someone who cannot comprehend what I'm saying, or what they're reading, gets their undies all bunched up and attacks me. The basis concept of a wedge screw regulating the depth of the wedge was what I was pointing to. How many times did I say original Colts?

Quote:

If you want to start the pi$$ing contest again, keep posting this OUTDATED patent.

That is funny as hell. So, what patent is not outdated? One from 1850? 1860? See how foolish that statement is?
I have an 1851 .36 made in 1862, with an oversized wedge screw head that contacts the wedge and regulates how far in I can push the wedge. It works. Sam Colt devised that method. Did it change and evolve over the years? Yes. It evolved to the point that Colt (Colt, the company) did away with wedges altogether.
I don't post things like that to start a peeing contest. I do it to move the discussion forward.

Ben Towe · February 17, 2011, 07:26 AM

No sense fighting about it boys, don't think anybody is talking about originals here anyway.

junkman_01 · February 17, 2011, 08:02 AM

Quote:

I don't post things like that to start a peeing contest. I do it to move the discussion forward.

Yeah right.

pohill · February 17, 2011, 08:35 AM

OK, explain how posting an original Colt patent, filed by Sam Colt, explaining how he, the inventor of Colt firearms, approached a certain problem that might still exist today, is looking for trouble? I'd like to hear this one.
And as far as not talking about originals, how can you look at an Italian repro of an original and not make a connection to what they are repros of?

Ben Towe · February 17, 2011, 09:20 AM

Pohill, you said yourself the screw doesn't serve that function on clones!

Quote:

I see this feature on my 1851 .36 made in 1862, but I have not seen it on the repros.

The screw is oversized on my Walker and would stop the pin I suppose... if I was inclined to use a framing hammer to drive it in that far.

pohill · February 17, 2011, 09:57 AM

The fact that it doesn't work on the repros is a manufacturing mistake or oversight of the Italians. I added a screw with an oversized head on my Pietta 1860 .44 and it worked as it should, tightening the barrel/frame connection. The wedge screw on my 3rd Generation 1861 .36 contacts the wedge and, again, does what it should.
It's a relevant issue when discussing wedges, not an issue designed to cause trouble. That accusation I do not get at all. If you read the patent and decide that it doesn't apply, or that it's outdated, fine - at least you considered it.

junkman_01 · February 17, 2011, 11:27 AM

I read the patent and considered it, and you got my evaluation of it (several times now). I do not believe Colt ever produced ANY wedges as the patent from 1839 depicts. That's what makes it outdated and irrelevant to todays Colt pattern C&B revolvers.

Noz · February 17, 2011, 11:31 AM

Back to the original question. Your problem is a short arbor as you noted. The fix is relatively simple. I would do it and then adjust the width of the wedge to give a firm fit.

junkman_01 · February 17, 2011, 11:32 AM

Atta boy Noz. That's what I've been saying all along.

pohill · February 17, 2011, 12:00 PM

Quote:

I read the patent and considered it, and you got my evaluation of it (several times now).

Fair enough, but there are other members who might learn from it, dismiss it or whatever.

Quote:

That's what makes it outdated and irrelevant to todays Colt pattern C&B revolvers.

I agree that it does not apply to Italian repros, at least not Pietta and Uberti, but it's still relevent to the essence of a Colt, and in the case of my Pietta 1860 .44, adding a larger headed screw fixed the problem I had with it, which brings it back into relevancy.

Quote:

I do not believe Colt ever produced ANY wedges as the patent from 1839 depicts.

Based on...what?

junkman_01 · February 17, 2011, 12:06 PM

Quote:
I do not believe Colt ever produced ANY wedges as the patent from 1839 depicts.

Based on...what?

Have you ever seen a wedge for a Colt pattern revolver constructed according to this patent? I have not.

Colt never fit the arbor as we have to do today, so that makes the method we use as relevant also.

pohill · February 17, 2011, 12:32 PM

My only point was that, originally, according to that patent, the wedge screw was used to check the depth of the wedge. And, like I said, it still applies to my Colt that was made in 1862, but not to my Piettas or Ubertis. That's all. Not looking for an argument, just pointing something out. If you read my other posts concerning this topic and dismissed them before, why read my posts again?

junkman_01 · February 17, 2011, 12:38 PM

You didn't answer the question.

Did you ever see ANY Colt pattern wedges constructed as depicted in that patent?

pohill · February 17, 2011, 12:46 PM

Wow, you like to argue, huh? In big bold letters even. Wow.
Are you serious? No, I have never held or examined an original Colt Paterson. So what? Obviously they (the wedges described) were produced...so what? I will repeat myself one more time...slowly...
All I said was that, at one time, Colt designed the wedge screw to temper the force of the wedge. And I even provided a patent, a Sam Colt patent, to back up that statement. Nothing more. If I had read the same post by someone else, even if I didn't agree that it was relevant, I would not have called it outdated because, well, it isn't, and I certainly would not have demanded IN BIG BOLD LETTERS, if the poster had ever seen one.
Ho hum. This is getting boring.

February 16, 2011, 07:30 AM	#1
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Hawes 1851 Colt Navy barrel wedge problem Last night I got a Hawes 1851 Colt navy. The gun was in pieces when I got it, so I quickly put it together but its not working perfectly. Everything is fine, until I fully install the barrel wedge, then the cylinder does not rotate. It seems as if its too tight. The hand catches but I can't cock the arm. The cylinder is actually so tight that I cannot even rotate it by hand after the wedge is installed. When the wedge is partway installed, it works fine but when I tap it in (with just a wooden mallet), the gun ceases to work. I tried oiling it, but nothing has helped. How can this be fixed? I imagine its something minor. Thanks. __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west

February 16, 2011, 07:38 AM	#3
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 1,128	My Walker does this. Installed like Hawg says it functions perfectly. Others have told me this is a result of a short arbor. Perhaps some who have dealt with the problem will chime in as I have yet to perform the "fix" on mine. __________________ 'Merica: Back to back World War Champs

February 16, 2011, 07:50 AM	#4
Bill Akins Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2007 Location: Hudson, Florida Posts: 1,135	+1 What Hawg said. . __________________ "This is my Remy and this is my Colt. Remy loads easy and topstrap strong, Colt balances better and never feels wrong. A repro black powder revolver gun, they smoke and shoot lead and give me much fun. I can't figure out which one I like better, they're both fine revolvers that fit in my leather". "To be sure of hitting the target, shoot first and call whatever you hit the target".

February 16, 2011, 04:31 PM	#6
Winchester_73 Senior Member Join Date: December 20, 2008 Location: Pittsburgh PA Posts: 2,863	Hawg, I know this is definitely your neck of the woods, but I was wondering if there is any strength sacrificed by not pushing the wedge all the way in? I realized I could do that, but I thought what if it got jostled somehow, could it fall out or make the gun unsafe, such as, during holstering? Do you recommend the steps to fix this submitted by junkman01? __________________ Winchester 73, the TFL user that won the west Last edited by Winchester_73; February 16, 2011 at 04:59 PM.

February 16, 2011, 10:46 PM	#10
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	It's important to read what I wrote - I said in the original Colts the wedge screw acted as a depth set for the wedge (key), and that is taken right from a Colt patent, not my imagination. I've gotten into peeing contests on other forums over this, which is crazy because I'm only presenting facts. Here is the link to the patent. Read the second column, first page, starting where it says "Figures 1,3, 4 and 5 represent the key." Read down to where it says, "As the key C is to act laterally as a wedge to draw the receiver and the barrel into proper contact, it is of importance that it should be checked when forced...etc." Read the next line. Like I said, I did not make this up. Sam Colt did. http://www.google.com/patents?id=bNI...epage&q&f=true Last edited by pohill; February 16, 2011 at 10:55 PM.

February 16, 2011, 07:34 AM	#2
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	You're driving the wedge in too deep. On a new gun it should just be flush on the side opposite the screw.

February 16, 2011, 09:44 AM	#5
junkman_01 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 260	You need to fix it using this method... http://www.theopenrange.net/articles...ers_Part_3.pdf http://www.theopenrange.net/articles...ers_Part_4.pdf

February 16, 2011, 08:00 PM	#7
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I do recommend doing it but if the wedge is a good fit it won't fall out or move under recoil. It may loosen up over time and with repeated disassembly to the point it will have to be replaced tho.

February 16, 2011, 09:20 PM	#8
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	On the original Colts, the wedge screw was used as a depth set for the wedge. Original Colts...I see this feature on my 1851 .36 made in 1862 but I have not seen it on the repros.

February 16, 2011, 11:22 PM	#11
junkman_01 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 260	That patent is apparently describing a Paterson type revolver and not later models. The wedges and function of the screw on later models is not what is described in this reference. If you notice and read the document, Colt employed TWO retaining screws AND an adjustment screw. This system does not appear on the later models of Colt open top guns. If you want to start the pi$$ing contest again, keep posting this OUTDATED patent. Last edited by junkman_01; February 17, 2011 at 03:14 AM.

February 17, 2011, 07:26 AM	#13
Ben Towe Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2009 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 1,128	No sense fighting about it boys, don't think anybody is talking about originals here anyway. __________________ 'Merica: Back to back World War Champs

February 17, 2011, 08:35 AM	#15
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	OK, explain how posting an original Colt patent, filed by Sam Colt, explaining how he, the inventor of Colt firearms, approached a certain problem that might still exist today, is looking for trouble? I'd like to hear this one. And as far as not talking about originals, how can you look at an Italian repro of an original and not make a connection to what they are repros of?

February 17, 2011, 09:57 AM	#17
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	The fact that it doesn't work on the repros is a manufacturing mistake or oversight of the Italians. I added a screw with an oversized head on my Pietta 1860 .44 and it worked as it should, tightening the barrel/frame connection. The wedge screw on my 3rd Generation 1861 .36 contacts the wedge and, again, does what it should. It's a relevant issue when discussing wedges, not an issue designed to cause trouble. That accusation I do not get at all. If you read the patent and decide that it doesn't apply, or that it's outdated, fine - at least you considered it.

February 17, 2011, 11:27 AM	#18
junkman_01 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 260	I read the patent and considered it, and you got my evaluation of it (several times now). I do not believe Colt ever produced ANY wedges as the patent from 1839 depicts. That's what makes it outdated and irrelevant to todays Colt pattern C&B revolvers.

February 17, 2011, 11:31 AM	#19
Noz Senior Member Join Date: February 25, 2009 Posts: 643	Back to the original question. Your problem is a short arbor as you noted. The fix is relatively simple. I would do it and then adjust the width of the wedge to give a firm fit.

February 17, 2011, 11:32 AM	#20
junkman_01 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 260	Atta boy Noz. That's what I've been saying all along.

February 17, 2011, 12:06 PM	#22
junkman_01 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 260	Quote: I do not believe Colt ever produced ANY wedges as the patent from 1839 depicts. Based on...what? Have you ever seen a wedge for a Colt pattern revolver constructed according to this patent? I have not. Colt never fit the arbor as we have to do today, so that makes the method we use as relevant also.

February 17, 2011, 12:32 PM	#23
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	My only point was that, originally, according to that patent, the wedge screw was used to check the depth of the wedge. And, like I said, it still applies to my Colt that was made in 1862, but not to my Piettas or Ubertis. That's all. Not looking for an argument, just pointing something out. If you read my other posts concerning this topic and dismissed them before, why read my posts again?

February 17, 2011, 12:38 PM	#24
junkman_01 Junior member Join Date: November 9, 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 260	You didn't answer the question. Did you ever see ANY Colt pattern wedges constructed as depicted in that patent?

February 17, 2011, 12:46 PM	#25
pohill Senior Member Join Date: December 27, 2005 Location: northeast Posts: 521	Wow, you like to argue, huh? In big bold letters even. Wow. Are you serious? No, I have never held or examined an original Colt Paterson. So what? Obviously they (the wedges described) were produced...so what? I will repeat myself one more time...slowly... All I said was that, at one time, Colt designed the wedge screw to temper the force of the wedge. And I even provided a patent, a Sam Colt patent, to back up that statement. Nothing more. If I had read the same post by someone else, even if I didn't agree that it was relevant, I would not have called it outdated because, well, it isn't, and I certainly would not have demanded IN BIG BOLD LETTERS, if the poster had ever seen one. Ho hum. This is getting boring.