best 44 bullet for black bear defense load

Elkins45 · June 18, 2010, 04:14 PM

For defensive use against an angry black bear would you choose a JHP, JSP or hard cast bullet in a 44 magnum revolver?

This isn't a question about a hunting load to be used broadside from a tree stand. This is a question about the best load for when a backpacker accidentally gets between a sow and her cubs and can't run away. Think frontal shot against a charging bear. Would you want a hollow point for shock and expansion or a more deeply penetrating bullet to make sure it reaches the vitals from a frontal shot?

TIA for any advice.

Vt.birdhunter · June 18, 2010, 04:39 PM

Quote:

more deeply penetrating bullet to make sure it reaches the vitals from a frontal shot

IMHO, answer B. A lot of mass to push through.

Daryl · June 18, 2010, 04:49 PM

There used to be a well known fella on another board who swore that hollow points were best for defense against bears. His logic was that they seemed to cause the bear more pain when they hit, and would therefore stop it quicker.

But I don't like hollow points for heavier animals, no matter what anyone says.

Cast bullets are great for hunting, but they don't transfer much shock to an animal. They just punch a hole and keep going.

For me, JSP's seem to offer a bit from both ends. They'll expand some if properly constructed for the velocity they're shot at, and they'll penetrate more than hollow points.

So, I'd choose a heavy-for-caliber JSP bullet pushed to around 1200-1400 fps; whatever whas safe and accurate in my handgun. A well designed 300 grain JSP bullet at 1200 fps would shoot almost or through a large black bear lengthwise. I think that's about all you could ask for in a handgun.

Daryl

Alaska444 · June 18, 2010, 05:39 PM

JHP are designed for human stopping power to keep all of the energy of the bullet in the person you are shooting at. Over penetration becomes a problem in this situation so FMJ and cast bullets are avoided.

JHP in hunting or bear self defense situations just doesn't make any sense to use a round designed to avoid over penetration. JHP in bears will often only penetrate to the fat and bones and that is it. Hard cast bullets will retain the energy to go through thick hide, fat and bone to reach the vitals you are aiming at. Over penetration is not a problem when it comes to bears, the better the penetration the better. Hard cast all the way. Buffalo Bore makes some of the best bear defense bullets out there.

kodiakbeer · June 18, 2010, 05:40 PM

Cast flat points.

Edward429451 · June 18, 2010, 05:58 PM

Heavy hardcast lead. Something with a big meplat.

Ask Larry Kelly how hollowpoints do against bears. He wouldn't be here if it weren't for backup.

JSP's? NO, you said charging.

Heavy flappoint solids, nothing to go wrong.

Old Grump · June 18, 2010, 06:45 PM

If you are leery about cast bullets get the Hornady 250 gr, JFP. I prefer the cast but these would be a close second choice for me.

mavracer · June 18, 2010, 08:46 PM

my stand-by is a 300 gr XTP propelled to 1250 with WW296.good expansion with the weight and momentum to penatrate.

reloader28 · June 18, 2010, 10:57 PM

I'm going to stick with my huge flat nose 320gr cast boolits. You make the right alloy and it is bar-none the best performing bullet there is, in my opinion. Penitration from nose to tail.

I see a local guy was mauled and killed by a grizzly here today.

When we're camping, I keep a short pump 12 gauge with slugs and buckshot in camp. Anywhere away from camp and I have my 44 loaded up hot.

Alaska444 · June 19, 2010, 06:38 PM

BILLINGS - A Wapiti man and well-known botanist and author is dead after being mauled by a grizzly bear Thursday in the Shoshone National Forest.
The Park County sheriff said the incident happened in the Kitty Creek Drainage about 7 miles from the east entrance to Yellowstone National Park. The roads, trails, and lands in the Kitty Creek Drainage are closed in response to the attack.

The body of 70-year-old Erwin Frank Evert was recovered Thursday night and a search is underway for the bear believed responsible for the attack.
Just hours after a Bozeman research team released a grizzly bear Thursday, the Park County sheriff said Evert went hiking in the area. Members with the Interagency Grizzly Bear Study team were working in the Kitty Creek area researching bears. Authorities say earlier in the day the team captured a large adult male grizzly, placed a radio collar on it, and released it. Crews then left the area. Officials say Evert wandered into the area shortly thereafter.

http://www.kulr8.com/home/related/96697259.html

The harsh reality is that a singular person is at the highest risk of mauling compared to going out with a group of 4. Evert apparently had no bear spray or a firearm with him on his fateful hike. If you are alone, walking in grizzly country, I can't say it is a smart thing to be completely unarmed. This appears to be a tragic example of taking grizzly for granted.

It will be interesting to hear what role the researchers may have played in this tragic event. The trauma of being tagged and colored may be what really set this entire episode into motion. However, I haven't heard of other similar episodes. Bear spray and a quick action lever rifle with adequate loads is what I will have with me out in the great northwest. ID in the panhandle is seeing more grizzly of late. You truly have to pay attention to this bear if you venture into their territory.

crowbeaner · June 30, 2010, 09:50 PM

Hardcast gaschecked lead as heavy as your gun will ACCURATELY shoot over a snootful of W296 or H110. Magnum primers and heavy roll crimp.

grubbylabs · July 1, 2010, 11:32 AM

I load the speer 270 grain GD-SP over the minimum W296 charge 18.5 GRAINS. It shoots well and I am shooting it in a 329 PD which is the air weight frame so I would have a hard time shooting a 300 grainer well. A local gun shop owner found out the hard way that hollow points don't penetrate well.

kodiakbeer · July 1, 2010, 12:04 PM

I'm not a proponent of handguns for bears simply because of the accuracy issue, but a hard cast with the biggest meplat available is by far the best choice.

Shoot for the tip of the nose or the mouth. The brain is much lower in the head than you'd think.

GAR700 · July 1, 2010, 12:42 PM

I packed 240 grain SWC in my 44 when I was in grizzly country. I like the idea of a really hard bullet for self defense on big critters. I want something I know will get the penetration I need. You aren't going to "knock down" a bear in a self defense situation unless you hit it in the drivetrain.
GAR

markj · July 1, 2010, 04:36 PM

Short barrelled shotgun with sabots on a sling, pump action in my case. If I was there more often a semi auto. Last time we camped at yellowstone a guy was mauled in his tent. Happens if people are not careful about their gear and cloths.

Bear spray goes a long way towards anti bear attack IMHO. From what I have heard from folks that use it.

stevelyn · July 1, 2010, 08:18 PM

300+ grain hardcast.

Here's a link that explains the thought behind the idea.

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44mag.asp

I haven't used their .44 ammo, but I have the .45-70 and I tread the earth without fear.

June 18, 2010, 04:14 PM	#1
Elkins45 Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2010 Posts: 498	best 44 bullet for black bear defense load For defensive use against an angry black bear would you choose a JHP, JSP or hard cast bullet in a 44 magnum revolver? This isn't a question about a hunting load to be used broadside from a tree stand. This is a question about the best load for when a backpacker accidentally gets between a sow and her cubs and can't run away. Think frontal shot against a charging bear. Would you want a hollow point for shock and expansion or a more deeply penetrating bullet to make sure it reaches the vitals from a frontal shot? TIA for any advice.

June 18, 2010, 06:45 PM	#7
Old Grump Member in memoriam Join Date: April 9, 2009 Location: Blue River Wisconsin, in Posts: 3,144	If you are leery about cast bullets get the Hornady 250 gr, JFP. I prefer the cast but these would be a close second choice for me. __________________ Good intentions will always be pleaded for any assumption of power. The Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern will, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters. --Daniel Webster--

June 18, 2010, 10:57 PM	#9
reloader28 Senior Member Join Date: October 13, 2009 Location: nw wyoming Posts: 1,061	I'm going to stick with my huge flat nose 320gr cast boolits. You make the right alloy and it is bar-none the best performing bullet there is, in my opinion. Penitration from nose to tail. I see a local guy was mauled and killed by a grizzly here today. When we're camping, I keep a short pump 12 gauge with slugs and buckshot in camp. Anywhere away from camp and I have my 44 loaded up hot. Last edited by reloader28; June 19, 2010 at 10:14 AM.

June 30, 2010, 09:50 PM	#11
crowbeaner Senior Member Join Date: June 4, 2007 Location: Upstate SC Posts: 1,943	Hardcast gaschecked lead as heavy as your gun will ACCURATELY shoot over a snootful of W296 or H110. Magnum primers and heavy roll crimp. __________________ If you want your children to follow in your footsteps, be careful where you walk. Beware the man that only owns one gun; he probably knows how to use it. I just hope my ship comes in before my dock rots.

July 1, 2010, 11:32 AM	#12
grubbylabs Senior Member Join Date: October 11, 2009 Location: Hansen Idaho Posts: 1,465	I load the speer 270 grain GD-SP over the minimum W296 charge 18.5 GRAINS. It shoots well and I am shooting it in a 329 PD which is the air weight frame so I would have a hard time shooting a 300 grainer well. A local gun shop owner found out the hard way that hollow points don't penetrate well. __________________ * (Swinging club) Whack! whack! whack! * Nope, the old nag's still dead . (Capt Charlie)

June 18, 2010, 04:49 PM	#3
Daryl Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Posts: 2,350	There used to be a well known fella on another board who swore that hollow points were best for defense against bears. His logic was that they seemed to cause the bear more pain when they hit, and would therefore stop it quicker. But I don't like hollow points for heavier animals, no matter what anyone says. Cast bullets are great for hunting, but they don't transfer much shock to an animal. They just punch a hole and keep going. For me, JSP's seem to offer a bit from both ends. They'll expand some if properly constructed for the velocity they're shot at, and they'll penetrate more than hollow points. So, I'd choose a heavy-for-caliber JSP bullet pushed to around 1200-1400 fps; whatever whas safe and accurate in my handgun. A well designed 300 grain JSP bullet at 1200 fps would shoot almost or through a large black bear lengthwise. I think that's about all you could ask for in a handgun. Daryl

June 18, 2010, 05:39 PM	#4
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	JHP are designed for human stopping power to keep all of the energy of the bullet in the person you are shooting at. Over penetration becomes a problem in this situation so FMJ and cast bullets are avoided. JHP in hunting or bear self defense situations just doesn't make any sense to use a round designed to avoid over penetration. JHP in bears will often only penetrate to the fat and bones and that is it. Hard cast bullets will retain the energy to go through thick hide, fat and bone to reach the vitals you are aiming at. Over penetration is not a problem when it comes to bears, the better the penetration the better. Hard cast all the way. Buffalo Bore makes some of the best bear defense bullets out there.

June 18, 2010, 05:40 PM	#5
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	Cast flat points.

June 18, 2010, 05:58 PM	#6
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Heavy hardcast lead. Something with a big meplat. Ask Larry Kelly how hollowpoints do against bears. He wouldn't be here if it weren't for backup. JSP's? NO, you said charging. Heavy flappoint solids, nothing to go wrong.

June 19, 2010, 06:38 PM	#10
Alaska444 Junior member Join Date: April 3, 2010 Posts: 1,231	BILLINGS - A Wapiti man and well-known botanist and author is dead after being mauled by a grizzly bear Thursday in the Shoshone National Forest. The Park County sheriff said the incident happened in the Kitty Creek Drainage about 7 miles from the east entrance to Yellowstone National Park. The roads, trails, and lands in the Kitty Creek Drainage are closed in response to the attack. The body of 70-year-old Erwin Frank Evert was recovered Thursday night and a search is underway for the bear believed responsible for the attack. Just hours after a Bozeman research team released a grizzly bear Thursday, the Park County sheriff said Evert went hiking in the area. Members with the Interagency Grizzly Bear Study team were working in the Kitty Creek area researching bears. Authorities say earlier in the day the team captured a large adult male grizzly, placed a radio collar on it, and released it. Crews then left the area. Officials say Evert wandered into the area shortly thereafter. http://www.kulr8.com/home/related/96697259.html The harsh reality is that a singular person is at the highest risk of mauling compared to going out with a group of 4. Evert apparently had no bear spray or a firearm with him on his fateful hike. If you are alone, walking in grizzly country, I can't say it is a smart thing to be completely unarmed. This appears to be a tragic example of taking grizzly for granted. It will be interesting to hear what role the researchers may have played in this tragic event. The trauma of being tagged and colored may be what really set this entire episode into motion. However, I haven't heard of other similar episodes. Bear spray and a quick action lever rifle with adequate loads is what I will have with me out in the great northwest. ID in the panhandle is seeing more grizzly of late. You truly have to pay attention to this bear if you venture into their territory.

July 1, 2010, 12:04 PM	#13
kodiakbeer Junior member Join Date: April 10, 2010 Location: Kodiak, Alaska Posts: 791	I'm not a proponent of handguns for bears simply because of the accuracy issue, but a hard cast with the biggest meplat available is by far the best choice. Shoot for the tip of the nose or the mouth. The brain is much lower in the head than you'd think.

July 1, 2010, 12:42 PM	#14
GAR700 Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2008 Location: East of the Crest, Oregon Posts: 184	I packed 240 grain SWC in my 44 when I was in grizzly country. I like the idea of a really hard bullet for self defense on big critters. I want something I know will get the penetration I need. You aren't going to "knock down" a bear in a self defense situation unless you hit it in the drivetrain. GAR

July 1, 2010, 04:36 PM	#15
markj Senior Member Join Date: October 27, 2005 Location: Crescent Iowa Posts: 2,971	Short barrelled shotgun with sabots on a sling, pump action in my case. If I was there more often a semi auto. Last time we camped at yellowstone a guy was mauled in his tent. Happens if people are not careful about their gear and cloths. Bear spray goes a long way towards anti bear attack IMHO. From what I have heard from folks that use it.

July 1, 2010, 08:18 PM	#16
stevelyn Senior Member Join Date: May 19, 2004 Location: Fairbanksan in exile to Aleutian Hell Posts: 2,655	300+ grain hardcast. Here's a link that explains the thought behind the idea. http://www.garrettcartridges.com/44mag.asp I haven't used their .44 ammo, but I have the .45-70 and I tread the earth without fear. __________________ Stop Allowing Our Schools To Be Soft Targets! http://fastersaveslives.org/ East Moose. Wear Wolf.