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Old November 28, 2009, 11:20 AM   #1
Normb263
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I now know what a "sniper rifle" can do

I went to the wrong forum the first time with this. Went to the range with 5 friends who love to shoot. We made lots of brass for reloading. One younger friend who is Army sniper trained brought along his 2 older .308's with all the heavy barrels in highpower scopes. He let me shoot them before and I did just fine with a little coaching. This time he brought a newly built 300 Win Mag, Savage 110 ( don't quote me on that one) with a Mcmillan stock and Bushnell 6500 in6-24 power, He dialed it in at 550 yds.,the burm on the end of the range. An amazing piece of weaponry. He's a cut above the rest of us but all five of us shot it at pieces of clay pigeon on th bank at 550 and were consistently making them diappear. Now I have an idea about what a siper rifle can do! I don't care what that costs I feel a need that consumes me. Gunlust of the first order. What would look at or own in the way of a 500 Yd plus gun that doesn't require 3 men and a boy to carry arround but would be used primarily shooting paper? Thanks a bunch for you responses in advances
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Old November 28, 2009, 11:47 AM   #2
dmazur
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Here's an "out of the box" long range rifle. Apparently can keep up with custom target rifles that cost double or more.

Savage F/TR

The caliber (.308) lets you enter F-Class competition in the Target Rifle division, I believe, if you want to pursue that. That division is limited to .223 or .308. There's also F-Class, Open, which brings out the dedicated long range rifles.

It's not a "sniper" rifle, meaning it's dressed in the wrong colors and doesn't have a DM. However, since you're not a sniper, that shouldn't matter...
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Old November 28, 2009, 11:59 AM   #3
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The Remington 700 PSS is a good one. Savage 10FP is also a good idea, but there are others as well.
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Old November 28, 2009, 12:17 PM   #4
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I can't remember the website, but there is a gunsmith out west taking rem 700's and milling them to a true tactical rifle.
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Old November 28, 2009, 05:45 PM   #5
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Good stuff. someplace to start. I'm looking forward to going semi-nuts in the neverending pursuit of bullets in the same hole at an amazing distance. Savage has sure got there act together over the last few years. I would think ther really moving product. Got a Savage 25 in .204 Ruger. Can realy do the job on varmints.
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Old November 28, 2009, 06:23 PM   #6
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If money is no object and you want a top-of-the-line sniper rifle, this is considered one of the best by most professionals. It will take down targets at 1.5 miles, not too shabby.



If your budget is only about $3k then this .338 Lapua would be my first choice. http://www.sako.fi/sakotrgmodels.php?trg42
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Old November 28, 2009, 08:14 PM   #7
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My Rem. 700 SPS .243 can keyhole rds. @ 200 yds. with a hunting scope and I'm guessing most of the time as the crosshairs obliterate the center of the target. Good enough for hunting.

I was invited to join another F-Class club last week! Twice in two years.

Most of the time it's not the rifle but the person behind it. Most PEOPLE would consider my old Stevens SBS 12ga. scrap, most BIRDS don't.
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Old November 29, 2009, 10:51 AM   #8
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Well you better have a deep wallet as a typical "sniper" rifle from any of the top name smiths like GA Precision, Iron Brigade, Tactical Precision, Texas Brigade, Shawn Carlock of Defensive Edge etc. will run you minimum $3,500 without optics and figure at least $1,200 for a Nightforce scope to $4,000 for an US Optics...

This guy builds rifles that shoot Chad Dixon of Long Rifles Inc.

The choice for real accuracy is in the .338 class of cartridges with the likes of the stock Lapua or wildcats like Shawn Carlock's Edge or Kirby Allen's KAM Mag although a .300 Win mag or the now very popular .300 WSM is also a good choice...
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Old November 29, 2009, 11:32 AM   #9
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I think we need to understand that SNIPER is not a noun. Maybe a pro-noun but mostly a verb.

You take that same "military sniper" and he could probably pick up any rifle on the firing line and make it shoot.

Money does not a sniper rilfe make, a shooter makes a rifle work.

The Famed Gunny Carlos Hathcock used a model 70 in 30-06 that was capable of shooting 2 in MOA. The so called experts today would call that a junk rifle. I've seen tons of so called Sub-Min guns out there, I've see very few cleaned 1000 yard targets. The 10-X ring on a 1000 yard target is about 2 MOA, so figure it out.

Just about any factory rifle out there would will shoot 2 moa or better.

Don't get hung up on money making a sniper rifle. You cant gimic you way to good scores. I'm a firm believer in putting the 'GIMIC" money into rounds down range. The best so called sniper rifle out there isnt gonna be able to read wind, you have to do that.

Oh by the way, huge fancy scopes, though nice, arnt the answer either. I've shoot my best 1000 yards scores with apeture sights.

Look at this slug, I made it myself, I have less then $300 in and trust me, its a shooter.

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Old November 29, 2009, 11:40 AM   #10
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If you don't reload, get a 308 or 223. Plenty of heavy barreled 308 and 223 bolt action rifles from quality makers, Rem, Savage, Howa, Winchester, Sako, Tikka, etc.

550 meters isn't that far away, so no need to go magnum.

If you do reload, get a Savage and have it rebarreled to 260 Rem. You'll get a similar ballistic curve to the 300 Win Mag, with much less recoil.

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Old November 29, 2009, 08:57 PM   #11
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Sorry, guys I don't know where it came from but I thought it was 1,550M not 550M and that changes things completely...

Like Jimro said, any good .308 Win, 260 Rem, 6.5x55mm Swede etc. heavy barreled rifle will do the job...You don't need magnums but they wouldn't hurt (except your shoulder, maybe) as they'd give you a bit flatter trajectory...

kraigwy -- that's a nice target gun you got there and I'm glad you can shoot paper with it at 1K, across a nice open field, fairly clear day and with a light wind only at the target...But can you, from an non elevated position, pick out a man crawling on the ground in a rubble strewn street at dusk with the same rig at the same distance? That's what the scope is for and for having to only concentrate on one focal plane at a time instead of lining the front sight, inside the rear sight with the same consistency, showing the same amount of light around the front and rear rings and holding on target...I'm nearly 60 years old and I can barely do it any longer at 10M Air or 25M Rimfire ranges let alone 100 yds and forget 1K altogether...

The word to snipe was used to shoot birds of the same name, thusly to go sniping, in India during the Colonial Days of the Raj and a good shooter was called a sniper, so yes, it is a noun...I was a sniper during the Yom Kipper War and I sniped on targets of opportunity, causing suppressed conditions and getting counter sniper fire in return...The military in their higher days of sobriety finally have now even a designed Sniper Courses and have designated Sniper as a class of soldier like machine gunner, mortar man etc....Yom Kippur brought the Israelis around and the British, Canadian and German armies have had courses since the very early 1980s (maybe late 70s), Russia never stopped having a course or designation since WW2 and others I don't have first hand knowledge of...

Sorry, but I disagree with you in that you can gimmick better scores out of a rifle, by the same shooter...You'll agree that putting a good trigger will improve accuracy, right? What about a crowned, match grade barrel properly floated and bedded? What about a better stock (new or modify yours) with proper pillar(s) and bedding? What of an adjustable butt stock? What about a trued action--granted not as much but still helps? Combined together would the same shooter not achieve higher scores?

The Armories I listed will make you an exact copy of the M40A1 through A5, the M21 and M24, Hell one will even make you the same gun that Gunny Hathcock used in "The Nam" but like the originals they ain't cheap...Will they make you a better shot, most assuredly--I've seen it many times...What they won't do is make you a great shot as that you have to do yourself...

I lost most of my guns in a house fire four years ago and I haven't bothered replacing the "tactical" (I hate that word) rifles, I just built some very accurate varmint rifles and a bunch of BR guns for LV & HV competition at 100, 200, 300 and 1K...I'm too bloody old to be crawling all over a combat course like I did just 10 years ago, but I can sit and shoot good rifles, for good scores, with good people and not do any further damage to this near decrepit body...I even gave up my first love of Schuetzen with single shot rifles because I can't stand for long periods anymore...

I agree with you that a better shooter, using a good gun, putting more bullets down range is more effective to becoming a better shot and no matter what no gun will do it for you without practice and ammo expended...Due to surgeries I doubt I've put 10K rounds on targets in the past four years, including clays, where I used to do that and more yearly...Having a range in my basement (air 10M) for the Winter months and a range out my back door for the rest of the year does help somewhat and I can ride my pedal bike the 10KM to the local Gun/Sportsman's Club and Range--CAS, IDPA, IPSC, BR, BPCR to 1.2KM, trap/skeet/sporting clays and 3D archery...
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Old November 29, 2009, 09:21 PM   #12
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Remington 700

In 338 Rum. I bought a new Sendero and then had it reworked. The best bet would get a used one then have it done by Bob Hart. He did the work and got it back to me in 25 or so days. At 117 yards it shoots .208 thats a 250 grain at 3100 fps. With his break the recoil is almost gone. Give them a call they are a great bunch. The only problem I had was measuring the groups they are so small,

http://www.rwhart.com/

Thanks,Keith
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Old November 30, 2009, 04:25 AM   #13
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Seekher,

Kraigwy is a sniper. I wouldn't want to try sneaking up on him with that iron sighted monster of his.

Remember that Hathcock made his first precision kill in Vietnam with an iron sighted M14.

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Old November 30, 2009, 09:32 AM   #14
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The ultimate combo,,,,,sniper skills in a hunter. America needs to do what we did in the beginning. Learn to shoot AND to stalk. Heavy casualties for the other side. Just my opinion.
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Old November 30, 2009, 09:42 AM   #15
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Agreed with most of what is said above, particularly about getting more-than-proficient with iron sights in a smaller caliber before moving to an optic.
And I'm sticking with my original suggestion...
Here's a nice package:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=380819
I'd also suggest that you invest in a decent optic, reloading gear and some long range shooting instruction.
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Old November 30, 2009, 09:55 AM   #16
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Good posts so far about long range rifles.

Don't forget about .338 Lapua
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Old November 30, 2009, 11:37 AM   #17
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I'd like to back up a bit. I'm not saying iron sights are better on a "sniper" (sic) rifle. I was trying to say I dont believe its a requirement to spend $5000 bucks or so on high priced glass with all the bells and whistles.

That picture I posted above comes with a Weaver T-10 for the any rifle/any sight configeration.

I was trained and trained others in my schools with the M-21 which was capable of both iron and glass shooting. The rifle I carried in LE, was a simple 6X fixed Redfield. Its over 30 years old and still works.

I dont like the term Sniper Rifle or Tactical Rifle, but if we must use those terms, they dont have to cost a gazzilian dollars. Ones time and money would be better spent on rounds down range, learning the fundlementals and reading wind and mirage.

The Question was about Rifles Per Se, As far a crawling through the wood etc etc, I believe its easier to teach a shooter how to soldier, then teach a soldier how to shoot. I based this on my sniper/counter sniper training and the several sniper schools I've conducted for the military (NG & Reg Army) and LE.

But this is just my opinion based on my experience and training.
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Old November 30, 2009, 12:09 PM   #18
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snipe in the sense of sniping, is a verb. (He will snipe a target. The man was sniping.) Sniper as used to describe a person who snipes or a weapon used for sniping is an adjective. (The man had a sniper rifle. The man was a sniper.) When not preceded or followed by a noun that it describes, the word sniper becomes a Noun. ( The sniper lay prone in the grass.)

When used to describe a type of rifle, the word is almost always an adjective since as a Noun it is understood to mean the person that snipes. (The man carried a sniper into combat. This indicates the man was transporting another man designated as a sniper, not a sniper rifle.)

Now, symantics aside. The O.P. did state that he was interested in shooting paper at 500 yards. I've got a Rem 513t with peekhole sites that would do nicely for that. It was free. The title of the post is not really indicative of the what the poster is requesting. It should read something like... "Advice on a 500 yard match rifle"

If he was planning on putting holes in some critters head it would be different, but he's not. He's shooting paper. He doesn't need the weight or terminal velocity to penetrate bone at 1000+ yards. If this is his intent or if he just wants it for the sake of having it, he needs to post that. If you wan't to throw a lot of lead downrange with great accuracy then go with a rifle for match shooting. Your shoulder will like you and so will your wallet. It will also hone your shooting skills putting more little bullets in a target than putting a few big bullets in a target.

One thing I really like about this topic is that it drew a few snipers out of the woodwork to give some advice and opinions. Though they may disagree on some points, they both have great advice to share.
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Old November 30, 2009, 01:24 PM   #19
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From .22LR to 7.62x54R, only accurate rifles are interesting.
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Old November 30, 2009, 01:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
that's a nice target gun you got there and I'm glad you can shoot paper with it at 1K, across a nice open field, fairly clear day and with a light wind only at the target...But can you, from an non elevated position, pick out a man crawling on the ground in a rubble strewn street at dusk with the same rig at the same distance? That's what the scope is for and for having to only concentrate on one focal plane at a time instead of lining the front sight, inside the rear sight with the same consistency, showing the same amount of light around the front and rear rings and holding on target...I'm nearly 60 years old and I can barely do it any longer at 10M Air or 25M Rimfire ranges let alone 100 yds and forget 1K altogether...
spotting scopes and binoculars usually solve that problem. In some situations you don't even have to actually see the target itself with open sights so long as you know where it is in relation to nearby objects like a brightly colored rock or a broken branch, a brick, a tall weed.
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Old November 30, 2009, 06:48 PM   #21
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kraigwy: Couldn't agree more. The equipment really doesn't make much of a difference to most of us until a certain skill level is reached. Once a certain skill level is attained then yes, the equipment will make a difference.

As a teenager I worked at a golf course. One of the pros would take old Kmart clubs and hit beat up range balls off of the cement straigh as an arrow. Guys would come up and ask what type of club he was using. Nothing to do with the club.

A good sniper, shooter will take about any gun and make it work magic then everyone wants that gun. After Tom Knapp does a shoot everybody thinks that with a Benelli they can do the same.

I am convinced that all of my rifles and handguns can shoot better than I can. My Dad routinely takes my guns and "schools" me. That just ought not be.

As to the original question posed: Remington 700, Winchester 70, Savage, etc. almost any good reliable rifle will punch paper at 500 yds. That isn't too for for punching paper. As far as calibers, well you have lots of varmit rounds that would fit the bill and not be tough on recoil.
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Old November 30, 2009, 07:13 PM   #22
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Come and take it. -- spotting scopes and binoculars usually solve that problem. In some situations you don't even have to actually see the target itself with open sights so long as you know where it is in relation to nearby objects like a brightly colored rock or a broken branch, a brick, a tall weed.
We used do that all the time, it's called harassing fire or to a degree suppressing fire and plunging fire if it was a long way out there...with machine guns and rifles...

That is not precision shooting as there is no way you can identify the target with the naked eye and making out landmarks from open sights to what is being described by your spotter doesn't work well...

Why we had tracer ammo in the guns...
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Old November 30, 2009, 08:40 PM   #23
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Old November 30, 2009, 10:22 PM   #24
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Only a few days ago I was looking at a 7mm Chilean 1895 model Mauser (I think) used by the Chilean army at the turn of the last century.

Like most military rifles of a hundred years ago, the standard iron sights were calibrated to enormous range - in this case to 1200 or 1400 metres if I remember. And if one looks at marksmanship or "musketry" of this period, there were a substantial number of regular soldiers well capable of good, consistant results in 1000 metre competitions. This was "normal" for that age. They were not special "tactical snipers" - just experienced well-practiced soldiers using their normal issue equipment.

For several reasons (not least, sadly, that these marksmen were wiped out in WW1) general issue military weapons evolved to accommodate less experienced shots and an increased rate of fire at shorter distance over long-range accuracy.

Sniping has evolved as a military tactic requiring very specific skills. And these have been helped by (expensive) technology - superb optics at a price, lazer range-finders, wind meters, ballistic computers among others. Certainly, the professional sniper, whose life is on the line, has every right to demand the very best - as has, I believe, the armed forces a duty to provide it.

But, as said before, expensive equipment does not necessarily guarantee good results. To be honest, I find Craigwy's rife pretty aesthically uncool - but I have total confidence in its accuracy, and at the end of the day that's what counts.

By the way, SVAZ, if my rifle is above 7.62 does it mean accuracy is unimportant
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Old November 30, 2009, 11:07 PM   #25
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Sorry to go off topic (hopefully no one is upset by it) but for those who may have a special place in their hearts for our military snipers I encourge you to donate much needed supplies at: http://www.americansnipers.org/items.html

It's not my site and I have nothing to do with it other than I donate when I can. The guys who run it are LE and/or MIL.

Back to the original post, a .308 is going to do fine at 550M. There are lots of good ones out there. I'd suggest buying the best glass you can afford (it will serve you well for many years) and don't forget about a decent spotting scope.

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