What's wrong with inexpensive SXS shotguns? - Page 3

BigJimP · May 29, 2010, 05:51 PM

Come on guys ...life is too short to drink crummy wine....(cheap or expensive) .... But I did pick up a case recently of the new release of an old favorite Napa Valley red wine - Frog's Leap winery / Cabernet Sauvignon ...its selling up here for around $40 a bottle ...but its as good as many $75 dollar bottles. I'd recommend you try a couple bottles..../and laying it down for a few years won't hurt it / but its ready to drink now as well.

treating yourself to a nice gun is the same thing ....but I can't resist making the rounds of my better used gun shops on a rainy day ....you never know what might follow you home .../and shopping for a good deal is way too much fun.

OkieCruffler · May 31, 2010, 01:13 AM

Kinda reminds me of a double I found not to long ago, had P O S stamped right on it. Turns out that stands for Pride Of Spain.

darkgael · May 31, 2010, 05:48 AM

Here's a question related to this set of ideas: Does any manufacturer make a SXS suitable for for high volume trap shooting? A gun that will last the aforementioned 50K rounds plus?
Pete

oneounceload · May 31, 2010, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Here's a question related to this set of ideas: Does any manufacturer make a SXS suitable for for high volume trap shooting? A gun that will last the aforementioned 50K rounds plus?
Pete

The Winchester 21 had a trap model made. Any of the better quality guns made for pigeon shooting should last as well

zippy13 · June 2, 2010, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OkieCruffler

had P O S stamped right on it. Turns out that stands for Pride Of Spain

My friend, wouldn't it have been in Spanish (perhaps Orgullo de España), not English?
Perhaps it was a third party warning: POS = Piece Of Sh..

darkgael · June 2, 2010, 06:15 AM

Oneounceload: This will show you how much I don't know about shotguns but....

Quote:

Any of the better quality guns made for pigeon shooting should last as well

And those would be?
I sat down with the current Gun Digest and none of the SXSs were labeled as "Pigeon Grade" - probably I can't afford one that is - so how does one know which is which? If you could suggest a model, that'd be a help. Just trying to satisfy my curiosity.
Pete

oneounceload · June 2, 2010, 01:55 PM

Many of the Spanish, Italian and British guns had a "pigeon model" that was meant for the heavy duty use at pigeon matches where loads were hot and heavy and a lot of money was riding on the outcome. These guns were typically 1/2 to 1 pound heavier than target guns and up to two pounds heavier than their standard field gun.

Some still use the term "pigeon" today (most notably Beretta), but those guns are not currently built to that spec.

AyA still makes a few models meant for heavy-duty use that I know about. Most folks don't use SxS for most of those purposes any more, unfortunately. I just got my S&W Elite in today - a nicely built 20 gauge that will be for birds - carried a lot, not shot as much. For heavy use, I use my Brownings (until I can convince Zippy to part with one of his P-guns for a mere pittance). My guns are target guns, meant to go the distance. Some are better than others, which is why P guns, K guns and similar cost what they do - pure, rugged simplicity with tolerances NASA would envy and reliability that Toyota would crave.

In short, if you're looking for a serious, high-round count shotgun for lots of targets, an O/U is most likely going to be your best bet. If you can find an older SxS that was meant for trap, pigeons, etc., you might have lucked out.

Now that I know that I, as a LH, can shoot DT's with no issues, my search is on for a nice 12 gauge SxS.........

And the quest continues................

zippy13 · June 2, 2010, 02:17 PM

1-oz, my friend, you've expanded my knowledge -- thank you. Previously, I thought that Pigeon grade referred to a level of extra fanciness, like a Midas or Diana grade. Does it always indicate a more durable gun or can it be just an appearance upgrade?

I'm thinking specifically of Model 12 "Pigeon" grade trap gun. I know they are fancier than a field version; but are they more durable?

oneounceload · June 2, 2010, 02:36 PM

That has been my understanding of the use for pigeon grade, although, I believe in today's terms, it also denotes a gun of high quality. Personally, "back in the day", if I was a maker and wanted a name for a highly decorated gun, naming it after a common pest of a bird would not have entered my head, whereas names like Midas, Diana, Exhibition would have. However, if I was making a very strong robust gun designed for that particular sport, then pigeon definitely fits the bill. Now to be fair, most folks who did (and still do) shoot pigeons tend to be wealthy and like nicely engraved guns - hence where the two names IMO crossed over and kept going.

johnbt · June 2, 2010, 02:48 PM

Why do they call them traps. Pigeon shooting. Something had to hold the pigeons until they were called for. There was, and still is, huge money in pigeon shoots. Well, okay, some pigeon shoots used a man to throw the pigeons aloft. But I need to leave the office now. John

Trivia. The 1900 Paris Olympics...

"Live Pigeon Shooting was held only once in Olympic history, in 1900. The object of this event was to shoot and kill as many birds as possible. This was the first and only time in Olympic history when animals were killed on purpose. The birds were released in front of a participant and the winner was the competitor who shot down the most birds from the sky. The participant was eliminated once they missed two birds. Nearly 300 birds were killed. The event turned out to be quite messy in the end with dead or injured birds on the ground and blood and feathers all over the place. An award of 20,000 Francs was the prize for the winner, though the top four finishers agreed to split the winnings. "

johnbt · June 2, 2010, 02:59 PM

Interesting interview. www.joeletchenguns.com/wing.htm

"GRITS: What's your favorite box-bird gun?

RUDY: I usually shoot a Purdey which I had made specifically for box-bird shooting. It's a specialty gun, just as special for its purpose as is the race car built for the Indy 500. It isn't something you're going to do much other shooting with.

GRITS: What are the chokes on your Purdey?

RUDY: Full and fuller. The right barrel shoots a 76-percent pattern with No. 8 shot at 40 yards, and the left barrel shoots 92 percent. It's extremely tight. That's an advantage mentally. I know that if I miss the bird with the first barrel, which every shooter frequently does, the capability is built into that second barrel to kill the bird. It's up to me to point it correctly. "
______

The thrown bird game is columbaire. John

"RUDY: About the only similarity is that you're shooting at pigeons in both. As much difference as between skeet and trap, two different games.

The columbaires are good, and they get to know the weaknesses and strong points of all good live-bird shooters. They take great pride in making the best shooters miss. It's a good game, and I shoot it, too.

GRITS: Not with the same gun.

RUDY: No. Instead of the tightly choked 30-inch Purdey, I shoot a Parker with 28-inch barrel bored improved cylinder and full. Again, it's a specialty gun. I try to get off the first shot as quickly as possible. It's a definite advantage to have two chokes at columbaire shooting, because your first shot is 20 to 30 yards and the second maybe 50 or more.

GRITS: The rumor goes around that a shooter can "buy" a particular columbaire to throw you an easy bird, or to throw a competitor a very difficult bird. Does this happen?

RUDY: There's a lot of conversation about it, but in all the years I've shot thrown birds around the world I've never seen that happen. I've never seen it proved. I've seen shooters miss a bird they didn't think they should get, but they forget that the columbaire remembers him. I know many of the columbaires, and I think they're completely honest people. "

corvairkid64 · June 2, 2010, 03:14 PM

This thread is like the Energizer Bunny.
I love it! .... and I'm learning a lot!

zippy13 · June 2, 2010, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Why do they call them traps

How do you think they get the pigeons that are shot at live bird shoots? In isn't uncommon for the birds to go directly from their trap to being a target -- hence, shooting traps, shooting over traps or trap shooting. This isn't anything that hasn't been going on quietly form some time. Cities and towns will hire someone to rid them of their flying rat problem without asking what happens to the birds after they are trapped. It's a classic case of Don't ask, don't tell.

Here's a link to a current pigeon trapping article with a pole for your opinion on the practice: Pigeon trapping and kidnapping.

May 31, 2010, 01:13 AM	#52
OkieCruffler Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2001 Location: Denison Texas on the banks of Texhoma Posts: 1,556	Kinda reminds me of a double I found not to long ago, had P O S stamped right on it. Turns out that stands for Pride Of Spain. __________________ John A. Monroe, Never Forgive, Never Forget, Blood Pays Blood

May 31, 2010, 05:48 AM	#53
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	hi-volume Here's a question related to this set of ideas: Does any manufacturer make a SXS suitable for for high volume trap shooting? A gun that will last the aforementioned 50K rounds plus? Pete __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

May 29, 2010, 05:51 PM	#51
BigJimP Senior Member Join Date: February 23, 2005 Posts: 13,195	Come on guys ...life is too short to drink crummy wine....(cheap or expensive) .... But I did pick up a case recently of the new release of an old favorite Napa Valley red wine - Frog's Leap winery / Cabernet Sauvignon ...its selling up here for around $40 a bottle ...but its as good as many $75 dollar bottles. I'd recommend you try a couple bottles..../and laying it down for a few years won't hurt it / but its ready to drink now as well. treating yourself to a nice gun is the same thing ....but I can't resist making the rounds of my better used gun shops on a rainy day ....you never know what might follow you home .../and shopping for a good deal is way too much fun.

June 2, 2010, 01:55 PM	#57
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	Many of the Spanish, Italian and British guns had a "pigeon model" that was meant for the heavy duty use at pigeon matches where loads were hot and heavy and a lot of money was riding on the outcome. These guns were typically 1/2 to 1 pound heavier than target guns and up to two pounds heavier than their standard field gun. Some still use the term "pigeon" today (most notably Beretta), but those guns are not currently built to that spec. AyA still makes a few models meant for heavy-duty use that I know about. Most folks don't use SxS for most of those purposes any more, unfortunately. I just got my S&W Elite in today - a nicely built 20 gauge that will be for birds - carried a lot, not shot as much. For heavy use, I use my Brownings (until I can convince Zippy to part with one of his P-guns for a mere pittance). My guns are target guns, meant to go the distance. Some are better than others, which is why P guns, K guns and similar cost what they do - pure, rugged simplicity with tolerances NASA would envy and reliability that Toyota would crave. In short, if you're looking for a serious, high-round count shotgun for lots of targets, an O/U is most likely going to be your best bet. If you can find an older SxS that was meant for trap, pigeons, etc., you might have lucked out. Now that I know that I, as a LH, can shoot DT's with no issues, my search is on for a nice 12 gauge SxS......... And the quest continues................

June 2, 2010, 02:17 PM	#58
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	1-oz, my friend, you've expanded my knowledge -- thank you. Previously, I thought that Pigeon grade referred to a level of extra fanciness, like a Midas or Diana grade. Does it always indicate a more durable gun or can it be just an appearance upgrade? I'm thinking specifically of Model 12 "Pigeon" grade trap gun. I know they are fancier than a field version; but are they more durable?

June 2, 2010, 02:36 PM	#59
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	That has been my understanding of the use for pigeon grade, although, I believe in today's terms, it also denotes a gun of high quality. Personally, "back in the day", if I was a maker and wanted a name for a highly decorated gun, naming it after a common pest of a bird would not have entered my head, whereas names like Midas, Diana, Exhibition would have. However, if I was making a very strong robust gun designed for that particular sport, then pigeon definitely fits the bill. Now to be fair, most folks who did (and still do) shoot pigeons tend to be wealthy and like nicely engraved guns - hence where the two names IMO crossed over and kept going.

June 2, 2010, 02:48 PM	#60
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	Why do they call them traps. Pigeon shooting. Something had to hold the pigeons until they were called for. There was, and still is, huge money in pigeon shoots. Well, okay, some pigeon shoots used a man to throw the pigeons aloft. But I need to leave the office now. John Trivia. The 1900 Paris Olympics... "Live Pigeon Shooting was held only once in Olympic history, in 1900. The object of this event was to shoot and kill as many birds as possible. This was the first and only time in Olympic history when animals were killed on purpose. The birds were released in front of a participant and the winner was the competitor who shot down the most birds from the sky. The participant was eliminated once they missed two birds. Nearly 300 birds were killed. The event turned out to be quite messy in the end with dead or injured birds on the ground and blood and feathers all over the place. An award of 20,000 Francs was the prize for the winner, though the top four finishers agreed to split the winnings. "

June 2, 2010, 02:59 PM	#61
johnbt Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Richmond, Virginia USA Posts: 6,004	Interesting interview. www.joeletchenguns.com/wing.htm "GRITS: What's your favorite box-bird gun? RUDY: I usually shoot a Purdey which I had made specifically for box-bird shooting. It's a specialty gun, just as special for its purpose as is the race car built for the Indy 500. It isn't something you're going to do much other shooting with. GRITS: What are the chokes on your Purdey? RUDY: Full and fuller. The right barrel shoots a 76-percent pattern with No. 8 shot at 40 yards, and the left barrel shoots 92 percent. It's extremely tight. That's an advantage mentally. I know that if I miss the bird with the first barrel, which every shooter frequently does, the capability is built into that second barrel to kill the bird. It's up to me to point it correctly. " ______ The thrown bird game is columbaire. John "RUDY: About the only similarity is that you're shooting at pigeons in both. As much difference as between skeet and trap, two different games. The columbaires are good, and they get to know the weaknesses and strong points of all good live-bird shooters. They take great pride in making the best shooters miss. It's a good game, and I shoot it, too. GRITS: Not with the same gun. RUDY: No. Instead of the tightly choked 30-inch Purdey, I shoot a Parker with 28-inch barrel bored improved cylinder and full. Again, it's a specialty gun. I try to get off the first shot as quickly as possible. It's a definite advantage to have two chokes at columbaire shooting, because your first shot is 20 to 30 yards and the second maybe 50 or more. GRITS: The rumor goes around that a shooter can "buy" a particular columbaire to throw you an easy bird, or to throw a competitor a very difficult bird. Does this happen? RUDY: There's a lot of conversation about it, but in all the years I've shot thrown birds around the world I've never seen that happen. I've never seen it proved. I've seen shooters miss a bird they didn't think they should get, but they forget that the columbaire remembers him. I know many of the columbaires, and I think they're completely honest people. "

June 2, 2010, 03:14 PM	#62
corvairkid64 Member Join Date: March 12, 2010 Location: New Jersey Posts: 42	This thread is like the Energizer Bunny. I love it! .... and I'm learning a lot!