Unidentified Colt SAA Clone

blacksheepone · December 11, 2014, 05:00 PM

I got this Colt Clone and can't seem to identify the make of it.
The notches on the cylinder are not where you would normaly find them on a regular SAA and the single action mechanism is quite diiferend too (I have no pictures of that). It has nice genuine stag grips and has the screw retaining the base pin like the 1st generation black powder frame SAA's.
I've been searching the internet for some time now but haven't been able to find anything similar to this one yet...
It's looks very nice and appears to be well made...

SaxonPig · December 11, 2014, 05:56 PM

Only a wild guess but in the 1960s one or two German companies made SAA clones.

blacksheepone · December 12, 2014, 03:10 PM

Okay... gonna follow that lead and see where it gets me.
Thanks Saxonpig

blacksheepone · December 12, 2014, 03:31 PM

...can't seem to find any clone out there with the cylinder notches in a more backwards position than they should be on an exact saa clone...
Up untill now it's a one of a kind gun...
I hope one day I'll identify it...
Keep on searching ....

Bob Wright · December 12, 2014, 04:13 PM

To my knowledge there were only a couple of German gunmakers who made decent copies of the Colt SAA, and this just doesn't have that look. Those made by J.P. Sauer & Sohn of Suhl, Germany, were all more robust looking than the actual Colt. Also they had the Christy type firing pin, so far as I know.

Since its not marked, I think it might be a Belgian copy from the WW I era. Since it is the old type black powder frame and bullseye ejector rod head, I suspect it to be older than the 1960's vintage.

Further, what caliber is it? And how is the "single action mechanism" different?

Bob Wright

James K · December 12, 2014, 08:47 PM

That looks a awful lot like a New Service cylinder. I have no idea what would be involved in fitting one to a single action, though, since the NS has an extractor on the back and a whole different center pin system.

The butt serial number is the way Colt used to put them on. Are there any barrel markings or other markings?

Jim

blacksheepone · December 13, 2014, 03:27 PM

Hi there. To answer your questions Bob it's chambered in 45 Colt. The mechanism is quite complex... The locking bolt doesn't pivot on the screw but just pops up and down. It's not like the bolt on a regular SAA at all it's just a piece that fits into the hole in the frame and pops up and down no fingers that catch on the cam of the hammer just this. It works like a normal saa though and to load it you put it on half cock which allows the cylinder to move freely.
I could strip the gun and post some pictures of the internals if necessary...
The stag grips look quite old and where made to fit exactly to this particular revolver.
Up untill now it's still a one of a kind....
Yes James K that cylinder works my mind too. It looks to me it was made for this revolver though. Not a new service cylinder put i a SAA....
I've seen this style of cylinder in other vintage Belgian clones though so Bob Wright could be on to something... Found an example on gunauction.com see the link below....
http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12356999

SaxonPig · December 13, 2014, 03:46 PM

The proof or serial stamp on outside of cylinder screams European origins. Might be an early Italian import or still feels German to me.

blacksheepone · December 13, 2014, 03:48 PM

It's a serial number on the cylinder. No proof markings at all of any sort... Didn't find any inside either....

tipoc · December 13, 2014, 05:21 PM

In one pic it looks as if some markings have been dremeled off the cylinder.

It also looks like it was bead blasted at some point. Possibly to remove markings.

The Belgians and Germans tended to load the guns with proofmarks. The Italians less so.

With the cylinder removed are their any marks visible on the cylinder or gun?

From the 50s through the 1970s a lot of imported Colt Clones made their way here.

tipoc

blacksheepone · December 13, 2014, 05:33 PM

Hey Tipoc.
I disassembled it a couple of times and no markings what so ever. There seems to be a marking that was indeed removed from the cylinder but other than that nothing. Except a "45" on the triggerguard and matching serials on the bottom of the frame the trigger guard , backstrap, loading gate and barrel.... (Possible the serials were added later on to make it look like a Colt)
The theory of a Belgian copy seems plausible since I live in Belgium....
No way to be sure untill I find another revolver with the same caracteristics...

Bucksnort1 · December 14, 2014, 01:32 PM

Rohm GMBH, Germany, makes a SAA clone but I don't think it's their gun.

James K · December 14, 2014, 10:52 PM

Since the mechanism is different from that of the "normal" SAA, it is possible that it is a one-off gun, made to prove someone's pet design change. If so, it could use parts from other guns, plus new parts made up to showcase the new mechanism. Costly, of course, but folks have often put a lot of money into some pet project or idea with little or no expectation of actually going into production or making money in the long run.

Jim

45 Dragoon · December 15, 2014, 07:30 AM

I would very much like to see the internals. Do you have pics?
Thanks,

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com

blacksheepone · December 18, 2014, 01:57 PM

Hey 45 Dragoon.
I didn't forget you but it's kinda busy at work so I'll post the pictures of the internals this weekend.
Hope that's gonna help figuring out which brand the revolver is....

45 Dragoon · December 18, 2014, 09:36 PM

Thanks!

Bob Wright · December 19, 2014, 01:29 PM

No help yet in identification, but about that bolt ~ what makes it "pop up and down?" What activates it to withdraw it from the cylinder notch and releases it again?

Sure sounds interesting, even more so than identification.

Bob Wright

blacksheepone · December 19, 2014, 02:30 PM

Pictures coming up tomorrow guys !

45 Dragoon · December 19, 2014, 07:42 PM

Well,I went back and looked at the pics. and the absence of a cyl. lock notch is interesting. With the approach starting so soon, the bolt must move rather quick ( double action style). Will be intesting to see the "lock up" for the cylinder.

Also, the absence of a bushing in front of the cylinder to prevent binding.

Mike

Gaucho Gringo · December 20, 2014, 06:45 PM

Cylinder notches and placement reminds me of Iver Johnson. I thought they imported various guns from Germany in 50-60's.

45 Dragoon · December 20, 2014, 07:53 PM

Ok , OK . . . . . I see the notch !!! I must be getting old and senile!!!! Lol

Pics please !!

Mike

Gaucho Gringo · December 20, 2014, 08:49 PM

45 Dragoon, not trying to pick an argument, just pointing out what I see. Sometimes I can be old and senile too.

45 Dragoon · December 20, 2014, 09:52 PM

Not you G G. I looked again and couldnt believe I didnt see them the first time!

Really want to see the inside. . .

Mike

blacksheepone · December 21, 2014, 12:21 PM

Sorry I didn't get the pictures of the internals up but it's kinda busy for me this period of the year but they're coming hopefully tomorrow ...

**4V50 Gary** · December 21, 2014, 01:10 PM

That's a much nicer clone than the Spanish one I examined. The thing was out of time and the grip was not right.

December 11, 2014, 05:00 PM	#1
blacksheepone Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 54	Unidentified Colt SAA Clone I got this Colt Clone and can't seem to identify the make of it. The notches on the cylinder are not where you would normaly find them on a regular SAA and the single action mechanism is quite diiferend too (I have no pictures of that). It has nice genuine stag grips and has the screw retaining the base pin like the 1st generation black powder frame SAA's. I've been searching the internet for some time now but haven't been able to find anything similar to this one yet... It's looks very nice and appears to be well made...

December 12, 2014, 04:13 PM	#5
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	To my knowledge there were only a couple of German gunmakers who made decent copies of the Colt SAA, and this just doesn't have that look. Those made by J.P. Sauer & Sohn of Suhl, Germany, were all more robust looking than the actual Colt. Also they had the Christy type firing pin, so far as I know. Since its not marked, I think it might be a Belgian copy from the WW I era. Since it is the old type black powder frame and bullseye ejector rod head, I suspect it to be older than the 1960's vintage. Further, what caliber is it? And how is the "single action mechanism" different? Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment. Last edited by Bob Wright; December 12, 2014 at 04:20 PM.

December 19, 2014, 01:29 PM	#17
Bob Wright Senior Member Join Date: July 10, 2012 Location: Memphis, Tennessee Posts: 2,989	No help yet in identification, but about that bolt ~ what makes it "pop up and down?" What activates it to withdraw it from the cylinder notch and releases it again? Sure sounds interesting, even more so than identification. Bob Wright __________________ Time spent at the reloading bench is an investment in contentment.

December 19, 2014, 07:42 PM	#19
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Well,I went back and looked at the pics. and the absence of a cyl. lock notch is interesting. With the approach starting so soon, the bolt must move rather quick ( double action style). Will be intesting to see the "lock up" for the cylinder. Also, the absence of a bushing in front of the cylinder to prevent binding. Mike Last edited by 45 Dragoon; December 19, 2014 at 08:15 PM.

December 20, 2014, 06:45 PM	#20
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 366	Cylinder notches and placement reminds me of Iver Johnson. I thought they imported various guns from Germany in 50-60's. __________________ 357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8

December 11, 2014, 05:56 PM	#2
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	Only a wild guess but in the 1960s one or two German companies made SAA clones.

December 12, 2014, 03:10 PM	#3
blacksheepone Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 54	Okay... gonna follow that lead and see where it gets me. Thanks Saxonpig

December 12, 2014, 03:31 PM	#4
blacksheepone Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 54	...can't seem to find any clone out there with the cylinder notches in a more backwards position than they should be on an exact saa clone... Up untill now it's a one of a kind gun... I hope one day I'll identify it... Keep on searching ....

December 12, 2014, 08:47 PM	#6
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	That looks a awful lot like a New Service cylinder. I have no idea what would be involved in fitting one to a single action, though, since the NS has an extractor on the back and a whole different center pin system. The butt serial number is the way Colt used to put them on. Are there any barrel markings or other markings? Jim

December 13, 2014, 03:27 PM	#7
blacksheepone Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 54	Hi there. To answer your questions Bob it's chambered in 45 Colt. The mechanism is quite complex... The locking bolt doesn't pivot on the screw but just pops up and down. It's not like the bolt on a regular SAA at all it's just a piece that fits into the hole in the frame and pops up and down no fingers that catch on the cam of the hammer just this. It works like a normal saa though and to load it you put it on half cock which allows the cylinder to move freely. I could strip the gun and post some pictures of the internals if necessary... The stag grips look quite old and where made to fit exactly to this particular revolver. Up untill now it's still a one of a kind.... Yes James K that cylinder works my mind too. It looks to me it was made for this revolver though. Not a new service cylinder put i a SAA.... I've seen this style of cylinder in other vintage Belgian clones though so Bob Wright could be on to something... Found an example on gunauction.com see the link below.... http://www.gunauction.com/buy/12356999

December 13, 2014, 03:46 PM	#8
SaxonPig Senior Member Join Date: April 24, 2006 Posts: 1,900	The proof or serial stamp on outside of cylinder screams European origins. Might be an early Italian import or still feels German to me.

December 13, 2014, 03:48 PM	#9
blacksheepone Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 54	It's a serial number on the cylinder. No proof markings at all of any sort... Didn't find any inside either....

December 13, 2014, 05:21 PM	#10
tipoc Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2004 Location: Redwood City, Ca. Posts: 4,114	In one pic it looks as if some markings have been dremeled off the cylinder. It also looks like it was bead blasted at some point. Possibly to remove markings. The Belgians and Germans tended to load the guns with proofmarks. The Italians less so. With the cylinder removed are their any marks visible on the cylinder or gun? From the 50s through the 1970s a lot of imported Colt Clones made their way here. tipoc

December 13, 2014, 05:33 PM	#11
blacksheepone Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 54	Hey Tipoc. I disassembled it a couple of times and no markings what so ever. There seems to be a marking that was indeed removed from the cylinder but other than that nothing. Except a "45" on the triggerguard and matching serials on the bottom of the frame the trigger guard , backstrap, loading gate and barrel.... (Possible the serials were added later on to make it look like a Colt) The theory of a Belgian copy seems plausible since I live in Belgium.... No way to be sure untill I find another revolver with the same caracteristics...

December 14, 2014, 01:32 PM	#12
Bucksnort1 Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2013 Location: Littleton, Colorado Posts: 1,121	Rohm GMBH, Germany, makes a SAA clone but I don't think it's their gun.

December 14, 2014, 10:52 PM	#13
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Since the mechanism is different from that of the "normal" SAA, it is possible that it is a one-off gun, made to prove someone's pet design change. If so, it could use parts from other guns, plus new parts made up to showcase the new mechanism. Costly, of course, but folks have often put a lot of money into some pet project or idea with little or no expectation of actually going into production or making money in the long run. Jim

December 15, 2014, 07:30 AM	#14
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	I would very much like to see the internals. Do you have pics? Thanks, Mike www.goonsgunworks.com

December 18, 2014, 01:57 PM	#15
blacksheepone Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 54	Hey 45 Dragoon. I didn't forget you but it's kinda busy at work so I'll post the pictures of the internals this weekend. Hope that's gonna help figuring out which brand the revolver is....

December 18, 2014, 09:36 PM	#16
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Thanks!

December 19, 2014, 02:30 PM	#18
blacksheepone Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 54	Pictures coming up tomorrow guys !

December 20, 2014, 07:53 PM	#21
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Ok , OK . . . . . I see the notch !!! I must be getting old and senile!!!! Lol Pics please !! Mike

December 20, 2014, 08:49 PM	#22
Gaucho Gringo Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2007 Location: Vancouver, WA Posts: 366	45 Dragoon, not trying to pick an argument, just pointing out what I see. Sometimes I can be old and senile too. __________________ 357 Taurus Gaucho, 22 Heritage RR, 2-Pietta 1858 44 NMA Remingtons, Pietta, Euroarms & ASM 36 1851 Navies, 31 Uberti 1849, 12 ga H&R Topper, 16 Ga Western Field, 43 Spanish Remington Rolling Block, 44 ASM Colt Walker, High Point C9 9mm, Winchester 1906 22, Rossi 62 22 rifle, Uberti 1860, H&A & IJ 32 S&W BreakTop, 36 Euroarms 1858, 32 H&R 04, 22mag NAA SS BP revolver, .44 Rodgers & Spencer, IJ 38 S&W BreakTop, IJ 22 Sealed 8

December 20, 2014, 09:52 PM	#23
45 Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2013 Posts: 656	Not you G G. I looked again and couldnt believe I didnt see them the first time! Really want to see the inside. . . Mike

December 21, 2014, 12:21 PM	#24
blacksheepone Member Join Date: November 18, 2014 Posts: 54	Sorry I didn't get the pictures of the internals up but it's kinda busy for me this period of the year but they're coming hopefully tomorrow ...

December 21, 2014, 01:10 PM	#25
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,840	That's a much nicer clone than the Spanish one I examined. The thing was out of time and the grip was not right. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*