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February 6, 2014, 10:01 PM | #1 |
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7.62 NATO Israeli Mauser....308?
Picked up an Israeli Mauser...
Assuming it cleans up and checks out OK, any reason I should have any concern about the K98K action handling the marginally higher pressure of the .308 compared to the 7.62 NATO round it was "designed" for?
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February 6, 2014, 10:12 PM | #2 |
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Nope. . |
February 6, 2014, 11:53 PM | #3 |
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None whatsoever.
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February 7, 2014, 02:27 AM | #4 |
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No issues with the rifle. Just avoid "surplus" 7.62NATO Israeli ammo. On principle.
A friend got 500 rnds of what we later learned was Israeli mfg, early 80s. The stuff was physically dingy (dirty). 100rnds fired out of various AR 10 type rifles. 11 failure to fire, 17 cases cracked (just above the head). It was accurate, but... My friend swore he would never again buy any ammo without opening the box and looking at it first. I did pull down the rest and salvage the bullets. Some of the pulled slugs had discolored lumps of powder stuck to their bases. SO, I would say avoid that stuff. The Mauser (once checked for headspace) should be fine.
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February 7, 2014, 06:18 AM | #5 |
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Thanks for confirming my thoughts.
A lot of surface rust, but little pitting (haven't removed it from the stock yet), had to spray the action liberally with Remoil to unfreeze the bolt. Now to check headspace and bore conidtion.
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February 7, 2014, 01:49 PM | #6 |
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When you start comparing different manufacturer's loads, there is no difference between .308 and 7.62x51, they are the same round with different names.
FWIW, the bad Israeli ammo is usually identified as headstamped T Z 80.
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February 7, 2014, 08:44 PM | #7 |
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No intent of using surplus ammo, already handloading for an AR-10 and a .308 bolt gun so just adding one more to the .308 list.
If the bore isn't up to the level of a good shooter just might embark on the DIY Mauser LR project I've always thought about trying. Thanks.
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February 7, 2014, 11:07 PM | #8 |
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Woa boy, get the popcorn, were in for a ride!
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February 8, 2014, 02:05 AM | #9 | |
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Quote:
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February 8, 2014, 01:59 PM | #10 | |
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K, I'll bite...why? FWIW, it was from CIA, one of the Czech BRNO K98K's "U Fix 'Em's", in case anyone was interested... Seems to be missing only the rear action screw, and whatever hardware (haven't checked yet) to fasten the sling to the slot in the buttstock. I can post some pics if anyone cares.
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February 8, 2014, 08:43 PM | #11 |
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How is the bore? Many Izzy mausers went to South America countries and rusted badly with worn bores and muzzles.
Pictures please! Last edited by HankC1; February 9, 2014 at 09:35 AM. |
February 8, 2014, 11:04 PM | #12 | ||
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Quote:
Quote:
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February 8, 2014, 11:12 PM | #13 |
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" When you start comparing various loads ", there is a difference between NATO 7.62 X 51, and commercial .308. 308 Winchester is a higher pressure load. I know the "Cartridges of the World " states that they are the same, dimensionally they are, pressure wise they are not.
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February 10, 2014, 08:24 AM | #14 |
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Do a little research. You will find that most reports of "higher pressure" do not take into account the different scales that military 7.62 and commercial .308 are measured in. Take a look at all the manufacturers' labeling that states both .308 and 7.62x51 on the same box. Would they do that if there was the slightest hint of liability? Take a look at the history......7.62x51 developed by the military and given to Winchester to sell commercially as the .308W. Military 7.62 and commercial .308 chambers can be slightly different. The internals of 7.62 and .308 brass can have a few differences. Other than that, factory loadings of .308 and 7.62x51 (the same thing) are perfectly interchangeable.
End of story. Anything else is nothing more than internet fantasy and myth.
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February 10, 2014, 09:44 AM | #15 |
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Wow, you seem very knowledgeable about the subject, perhaps you should contact SAAMI and the American Rifleman to inform them that they don't know what they are talking about and are wrong in the information they publish. I'm quite sure they will be amazed and gratified to receive such information. Why, if I wasn't a life member I would immediately cancel my subscription. I for one am very glad you set me straight on the fact that all these organizations have been printing myths and fantasy's
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Ron James Last edited by RJay; February 10, 2014 at 10:39 AM. |
February 10, 2014, 07:18 PM | #16 |
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Well, I am more than fairly knowledgeable about the subject, and if SAAMI and some old edition of the American Rifleman state that the .308 and 7.62x51 rounds are different and not interchangeable.......they are wrong.
The myth that they are different is old news and has been proven to be incorrect. Unfortunately, people, internet and industry experts alike, persist in repeating the same old crap with an uncritical eye. Do your own research and you will be enlightened and liberated.
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February 10, 2014, 08:33 PM | #17 |
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When you measure 7.62x51 in CUP (50k) and 308 Win in PSI (60k), it is easy to think that the 308 Win is loaded to a higher pressure. You cannot reliably convert between the two scales, but both cartridges use the same load data from government and civilian sources so I am of the opinion that there is no functional pressure difference.
What 7.62x51 NATO spec ammo must do that 308 Win is not required to do is meet specific gas port pressure standards for use in machine guns and semi-automatic rifles. This is why you should not load just any 308 Win load in an M1A, AR-10 or 7.62 Garand. The same condition exists in 30-06, that there are loads that meet the specifications for use in the M1 Garand, and there are loads that do not. But no one is arguing that military 30-06 isn't spec'd to the same pressure as civilian 30-06. But this myth will never die, at least not in my lifetime. Jimro
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February 10, 2014, 09:36 PM | #18 |
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Exactly. As with any widely produced product, there will be a broad spectrum of different loadings, weights, etc. available in .308/7.62.
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February 11, 2014, 01:47 PM | #19 | |
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But functionally interchangeable? I'd say yes, no question. Now, what your particular rifle likes best? (and what's best for it, overall?) That's a whole different matter.
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February 11, 2014, 02:25 PM | #20 |
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So...
Overall, how was the gun? |
February 13, 2014, 09:50 PM | #21 |
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I owned one for a short time in the early 90's.
The barrel was new and the weapon had not been fired after it was converted. It was not acurate enough at 100 yards to keep my interest, Jim |
February 14, 2014, 12:33 PM | #22 |
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What keeps your interest is what keeps your interest, but with a new barrel, it ought to be acceptable. Did you really give it a fair evaluation? Might it not have been the ammo?
Reminds me of a story I heard about a guy in the Phillippines who was disgusted with the poor accuracy of his Steyr SSG. Wouldn't shoot worth beans. Was about to sell it cheap... A friend talked him into trying some match ammo. All he had been shooting was Phillipine surplus GI ball ammo. BIG DIFFERENCE! The rifle was exceptionally accurate with the different ammo. it can make all the difference.
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February 17, 2014, 03:39 PM | #23 |
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The 4 surplus rifles I was most disapointed in over the years were as follows.
The Israeli 308 Mauser. A P-14 Eddystone .303. Grrr , loved that rifle but it would not shoot! An A3 03 Springfield. A Lee Enfield .303 WW2 ERA Australian manufactured #3, unfired. They were all rebarreled except for the Lee Enfield III which was unfired. I can't remember what ammo I fired through the 308 Mauser. I would have tried at least a few different manufacturers before giving up. I was heavily into reloading rounds and buying rounds for .303. Those two 303rifles above had no excuse. The 30-06 -- I tried several good type of rounds. All the weapons wouldn't fire a 6" group at 100 yards bench rested. Some of my favorites were the Swedish Mausers and my Lee Enfield # IVs. The Irish contract # IV's Lees were spectacular. The one I scoped would shoot 3/4 groups with my accuracy hand loads. I have 4 of those one unfired. I can not tell you why I had such bad luck with rebarreled surplus rifles. The A3-03 was arsenal done - as was the 308. I dunno? None were two groove barrels. I had an International Harvester M-1 a local gunsmith rebarreled and it was spectacular!! |
February 18, 2014, 02:07 PM | #24 |
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While the dreamer in me wants to believe there are no bad barrels (you can always do things to "fix" things), the fact is that there are bad barrels.
And there are ok barrels that just don't shoot well because of something you can do something about. And you never know which one is which until you start shooting them. you might be a bad barrel magnet, just because you can recognize a bad barrel! I've got a 1917 dated SMLE (No1MkIII???) that came to me with an extra barrel, because the guy said the one on the rifle was bad. That bad barrel put 5 shots of Rem factory ammo in 1.5" @ 60 yds, from a kneeling position, with ME shooting it. Guess we had different definitions of bad...
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February 18, 2014, 08:10 PM | #25 |
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Sweet! I really enjoy Lee Enfields.
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