Help Identifying this Pre-Civil War Rifle

moosejaw · December 6, 2013, 04:39 PM

Please help me identify this Pre-Civil War Rifle.

Etched in the barrel are the years 1823 and 1833.

Thank you.

http://imgur.com/a/ooibz

tahunua001 · December 6, 2013, 05:19 PM

we'll need much more detailed photos than that.
we need close ups of the lock, muzzle, and engraving, and then it needs to be taken out of the stock so that we can see any proofs on the barrel.

moosejaw · December 6, 2013, 05:30 PM

Ok, I will try to get some more detailed photos. Any suggestions or clues so far?

EDIT: More images. Best I can do with my camera.
http://imgur.com/fguvAQf

http://imgur.com/fguvAQf

http://imgur.com/Ha01ki7

http://imgur.com/xIKGEOM

PetahW · December 6, 2013, 07:20 PM

.

It might help if you took pics of the rest of the gun, and not just the lock.

.

Hawg · December 6, 2013, 07:58 PM

That's a nice full stock percussion. The clean out screw and the lock screw are not original and its a shame someone defaced the barrel. Percussion caps were not around in 1823 and that was definitely never a flintlock. My WAG is it was made between 1840 and 1860.

moosejaw · December 6, 2013, 09:01 PM

There were a few pictures in the album of the whole rifle.

James K · December 6, 2013, 10:30 PM

Something is definitely missing there. That type of back action lock almost always butts at the front onto the bolster or a fence. It does not just end in the wood or in the air like that one does. As for a conversion, that would be about impossible; I have never seen a back action flintlock and the mechanical requirements would seem to make one very unlikely.

It is pretty certain that the lock is original to the rifle; back action locks are uncommon on American rifles, but not unknown.

But I think that rifle had some other type of bolster and that the common drum type is a replacement. (The cleanout screw appears modern.)

It is a full stock sporting/hunting rifle of around 1835-40. I can't explain the 1823 and 1833 dates. The latter would be possible; the former not at all.

Many of those percussion rifles, full or half stock, were made in small shops and often even signed ones cannot be traced since there is no information on the maker. Unless the OP has some other source of information, the maker and date/place of manufacture may never be known.

Jim

Jim Watson · December 7, 2013, 01:01 AM

Rightly or not, I always figure guns with back action locks are of later manufacture than bar action guns.
The dates probably don't have anything to do with the age of the rifle. Maybe the birthday of the first owner and his brother. Who knows?

mapsjanhere · December 7, 2013, 10:01 AM

Easily possible that the barrel was taken of an earlier flintlock, the horizontal fire hole would fit. The lack of fitting around the lock speaks of a less than sophisticated gun maker assembling the gun for parts.

moosejaw · December 7, 2013, 11:23 AM

I appreciate everyone's help thus far. I do not have any understanding of guns in general so this is a great learning experience.

I guess I'm asking if there is any consensus on the date or the type or the manufacturer? I'm looking to possibly sell the gun and would greatly like to have as much knowledge as possible. This gun belonged to my late husband and was used in the Civil War by one of his ancestors, according to family folklore. He received a certificate from the Secretary of War Stanton and President Lincoln for his service in an Ohio Volunteer regiment.

OcelotZ3 · December 7, 2013, 10:07 PM

It seems the etchings are accompanied by initials?

Could it be owner initials & birthday?

Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret · December 8, 2013, 08:40 AM

Include those framed documents in the deal and ask $875. Someone who wants it on the mantle will be happy with it. Someone like the experts above will see that the authenticity is questionable BUT might take it for less.
The details are not on your side on this one. "Who made it and when? " Who knows? We don't know if it was made this way with spare parts or altered later.
Call it a 'percussion swivel-bore from the mid 19th century from Ohio' and leave it at that

trigger643 · December 8, 2013, 03:56 PM

I'm pretty much with the others on this. Although the lock appears it could have been original to the stock (or another smaller lock and the area enlarged later?), the barrel doesn't belong to the rifle and does appear to be an earlier flint lock barrel that's had the frizzen and pan replaced with a nipple.

Bubba has been working on guns for over 300 years, that's a fact.

Still, a neat old gun.

SDC · December 8, 2013, 06:33 PM

The set trigger means that this lock would have originally been on a target rifle, but is the bore rifled now?

James K · December 9, 2013, 12:48 AM

The problem with a claimed Civil War association is that while there might be proof that the ancestor served in that war, that does not provide any proof that this rifle was carried in the war, by him or anyone else, or even belonged to him.

Since that is not a standard military rifle and probably is not even the standard .58 caliber, it is not very likely (close to impossible) that the rifle was carried in the war. (It would be like a soldier in Afghanistan carrying a Winchester High Wall in .32-40 - not impossible, but darned unlikely.)

BTW, set triggers were often used on hunting rifles, not just on target rifles.

Jim

December 6, 2013, 04:39 PM	#1
moosejaw Junior Member Join Date: December 6, 2013 Posts: 4	Help Identifying this Pre-Civil War Rifle Please help me identify this Pre-Civil War Rifle. Etched in the barrel are the years 1823 and 1833. Thank you. http://imgur.com/a/ooibz

December 6, 2013, 05:19 PM	#2
tahunua001 Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2011 Location: Idaho Posts: 7,839	we'll need much more detailed photos than that. we need close ups of the lock, muzzle, and engraving, and then it needs to be taken out of the stock so that we can see any proofs on the barrel. __________________ ignore my complete lack of capitalization. I still have no problem correcting your grammar. I never said half the stuff people said I did-Albert Einstein You can't believe everything you read on the internet-Benjamin Franklin

December 6, 2013, 05:30 PM	#3
moosejaw Junior Member Join Date: December 6, 2013 Posts: 4	Ok, I will try to get some more detailed photos. Any suggestions or clues so far? EDIT: More images. Best I can do with my camera. http://imgur.com/fguvAQf http://imgur.com/fguvAQf http://imgur.com/Ha01ki7 http://imgur.com/xIKGEOM Last edited by moosejaw; December 6, 2013 at 05:55 PM.

December 7, 2013, 10:01 AM	#9
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	Easily possible that the barrel was taken of an earlier flintlock, the horizontal fire hole would fit. The lack of fitting around the lock speaks of a less than sophisticated gun maker assembling the gun for parts. __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

December 8, 2013, 08:40 AM	#12
Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret Senior Member Join Date: May 30, 2012 Location: Oh, Jesus. Posts: 226	Selling it. Include those framed documents in the deal and ask $875. Someone who wants it on the mantle will be happy with it. Someone like the experts above will see that the authenticity is questionable BUT might take it for less. The details are not on your side on this one. "Who made it and when? " Who knows? We don't know if it was made this way with spare parts or altered later. Call it a 'percussion swivel-bore from the mid 19th century from Ohio' and leave it at that Last edited by Lt. Skrumpledonk Ret; December 8, 2013 at 08:56 AM.

December 6, 2013, 07:20 PM	#4
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	. It might help if you took pics of the rest of the gun, and not just the lock. .

December 6, 2013, 07:58 PM	#5
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	That's a nice full stock percussion. The clean out screw and the lock screw are not original and its a shame someone defaced the barrel. Percussion caps were not around in 1823 and that was definitely never a flintlock. My WAG is it was made between 1840 and 1860.

December 6, 2013, 09:01 PM	#6
moosejaw Junior Member Join Date: December 6, 2013 Posts: 4	There were a few pictures in the album of the whole rifle.

December 6, 2013, 10:30 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Something is definitely missing there. That type of back action lock almost always butts at the front onto the bolster or a fence. It does not just end in the wood or in the air like that one does. As for a conversion, that would be about impossible; I have never seen a back action flintlock and the mechanical requirements would seem to make one very unlikely. It is pretty certain that the lock is original to the rifle; back action locks are uncommon on American rifles, but not unknown. But I think that rifle had some other type of bolster and that the common drum type is a replacement. (The cleanout screw appears modern.) It is a full stock sporting/hunting rifle of around 1835-40. I can't explain the 1823 and 1833 dates. The latter would be possible; the former not at all. Many of those percussion rifles, full or half stock, were made in small shops and often even signed ones cannot be traced since there is no information on the maker. Unless the OP has some other source of information, the maker and date/place of manufacture may never be known. Jim

December 7, 2013, 01:01 AM	#8
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,543	Rightly or not, I always figure guns with back action locks are of later manufacture than bar action guns. The dates probably don't have anything to do with the age of the rifle. Maybe the birthday of the first owner and his brother. Who knows?

December 7, 2013, 11:23 AM	#10
moosejaw Junior Member Join Date: December 6, 2013 Posts: 4	I appreciate everyone's help thus far. I do not have any understanding of guns in general so this is a great learning experience. I guess I'm asking if there is any consensus on the date or the type or the manufacturer? I'm looking to possibly sell the gun and would greatly like to have as much knowledge as possible. This gun belonged to my late husband and was used in the Civil War by one of his ancestors, according to family folklore. He received a certificate from the Secretary of War Stanton and President Lincoln for his service in an Ohio Volunteer regiment.

December 7, 2013, 10:07 PM	#11
OcelotZ3 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2008 Posts: 229	It seems the etchings are accompanied by initials? Could it be owner initials & birthday?

December 8, 2013, 03:56 PM	#13
trigger643 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2011 Posts: 322	I'm pretty much with the others on this. Although the lock appears it could have been original to the stock (or another smaller lock and the area enlarged later?), the barrel doesn't belong to the rifle and does appear to be an earlier flint lock barrel that's had the frizzen and pan replaced with a nipple. Bubba has been working on guns for over 300 years, that's a fact. Still, a neat old gun.

December 8, 2013, 06:33 PM	#14
SDC Senior Member Join Date: January 23, 2001 Location: People's Republic of Kanada Posts: 1,652	The set trigger means that this lock would have originally been on a target rifle, but is the bore rifled now? __________________ Gun control in Canada: making the streets safer for rapists, muggers, and other violent criminals since 1936.

December 9, 2013, 12:48 AM	#15
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	The problem with a claimed Civil War association is that while there might be proof that the ancestor served in that war, that does not provide any proof that this rifle was carried in the war, by him or anyone else, or even belonged to him. Since that is not a standard military rifle and probably is not even the standard .58 caliber, it is not very likely (close to impossible) that the rifle was carried in the war. (It would be like a soldier in Afghanistan carrying a Winchester High Wall in .32-40 - not impossible, but darned unlikely.) BTW, set triggers were often used on hunting rifles, not just on target rifles. Jim