No Mo' SCOPE!!!! - Page 2

Alan Duke · January 20, 2010, 04:29 PM

Did the same thing on my Model 94 this year. made it feel like a totaly different gut and felt WAY more confortable. I'm with ya on this one hogdogs.

hogdogs · January 20, 2010, 04:46 PM

I was swinging it and pointing raising and lowering it like a little kid with a brand spankin' new Red Ryder on Christmas morn'... Sorts felt irresponsible and immature for a moment but shrugged that off sayin' "Man this thing feels like a totally different and new rifle..." Me sho likey mo betta now!
Brent

bamaranger · January 22, 2010, 03:03 AM

Here are the Commandments for lever rifles.

Thou shalt not put a 'scope on thy lever rifle.

One shall remove all white line spacers on thy lever rifle so as not to offend me.

A stainless lever rifle is an abomination to my will.

shafter · January 23, 2010, 10:24 AM

Nothin worse in my opinion. You'd never catch me putting a scope on any lever action. We buy them for their looks, easy handling, and historical appeal. A scope ruins all of this.

youp · January 23, 2010, 11:00 AM

My son has a 4x Nikon on his 94/30-30 and loves it. I recently received my great Uncle's 94/32 spec. Eyes really do not do the buckhorn justice. Do not think I will have it drilled and tapped, the top eject means offset scope mounts. I am not concerned about the 'value' loss should I scope it. Gun is mine until death or the blue hats do us part. (Could be the same, will cross that bridge when I get there)

Probably will find a Lyman or Marble Arms (NOT Marbles) tang sight. Or maybe a scout type mount. We will see...

bamaranger · January 24, 2010, 03:32 AM

Geez youp, its yours and all, but don't drill a 94/32, please.

Tangs give you the longest sight radius, but a peep/aperature is not much worse. And I agree, buckhorn's are the pits, no matter how traditional. Is the 94 you own pre drilled/tapped, for an aperture/peep?

Rear notch and front bead sights are now starting to give me fits as well.
I've replaced most all my lever and auto carbines w/ peeps and either ashley front posts, or modified the beads, and still can shoot them acceptably, for a while longer anyhow. I've thought about a sourdough, but have not done it.

I modify the beads by taking a fine, small file and put a SLIGHT up slanted face
(say 30 degrees) on them. This seems to catch the light better, esp if there's any sun, and eliminates the wishy/washy undefined look of a rounded one. You may not wanna do that to a vintage 94, but it'd beat drilling it in my book.

Art Eatman · January 24, 2010, 10:48 AM

I wear trifocals. Hassle factor when using irons. My cure came from IPSC days. (Daze?) I had the lens lab glue an extra small lens at the upper inside corner of my sighting-eye lens. The correction is that for arms length, instrument panels, etc. Perfect for iron sights. The sights are sharp, the target has a very slight blur.

But when you hunt in Ma Bell country, irons generally just ain't the best deal.

youp · January 24, 2010, 10:42 PM

Bama,

Doan worry, be happy

I found fair priced Lyman No2 at MGW.

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/...ies/U345310810

It is on the third wave of improvements. Working on a couple of stocks first.

Morgoroth · January 26, 2010, 07:09 AM

I know this is showing my ignorance, but what type of sights are "Tang" and "Buck horn"?

Also, do you still have to "Sight in" open sights like you do a scope?
I only have a shotgun with bead sights and a .22 with a scope, so I don't have a lot of experience with iron sights.

Which is something that I will be rectifying.

hogdogs · January 26, 2010, 09:44 AM

Well, sights usually have a range of height adjustment. Most are in at least a dove tail groove and can be drifted left or right if needed.

The open sight is much more "shooter specific" as in the way you mount the gun and set your head to look down the rifle. Tang sights, in the case of lever actions, are a flip up peep sight with much more elevation adjustment that is mounted behind the hammer on the receiver tang...
Buck horns are the regular open sight with a curved view to the rear blade ie: buckhorn shaped...

Brent

Morgoroth · January 26, 2010, 09:49 AM

Nice. Thanks, I had no idea what you guys were talking about.
Do tangs get knocked out of alignment more often that buck horns since the tangs have the movable parts?

hogdogs · January 26, 2010, 09:51 AM

I don't know, but there are a slew of guys that swear by the tang sights... I never got that far though

Brent

Art Eatman · January 26, 2010, 10:27 AM

A sight mounted on the tang gives a much longer sight radius. Like the difference between a snubby revolver and one with a 6" barrel.

The peephole makes it easier for consistency in the sight picture. The human eye/brain readily can tell if something is centered in a circle.

As with a scope: The gun is not more accurate. It is easier to shoot accurately.

Doodlebugger45 · January 26, 2010, 10:51 AM

Anyone who wants peep sights for their lever action might want to check this site out.

http://skinnersights.com/index.html

Morgoroth · January 26, 2010, 11:10 AM

How do you guys adjust for bullet drop with peep sights that don't have sliders?
It seems like going from shots at 25 yards to shots at 150 you would have to factor that in.

oneoldsap · January 26, 2010, 11:26 AM

As a rule you don't make elevation adjustments in the field with iron sights for hunting . There are calibrated target sights on the market that you do adjust on the range . I think people should learn to shoot with iron sights before they ever use a scope ! Just my opinion ! You aren't a driver till you can drive a stick , and you aren't a shooter till you master the irons .

hogdogs · January 26, 2010, 11:36 AM

I just need to know where i am shooting at about 85 yards with a .30-30... for closer or further it is just a matter of putting the "target image" lower or higher in my sight... For instance, if a deer is 125 yards out, I aim a few inches below the spine for a center of vitals impact, for 25 yards, I aim for a couple 2 or 3 inches above the sternum for a similar POI... Peeps... same thing... In the buck horn image above, it shows changing the pin position of the front sight. I don't personally do that.
Brent

youp · January 27, 2010, 04:21 PM

doodles,

Look good for Marlin use. Winchesters do not have that solid top.

morgor,

The range you have specified is within point blank range of 30-30, 32 spec, and 35 Rem. I have no experience with the 44 Mag class and believe 150 yards too far for 357 mag.

Morgoroth · January 28, 2010, 07:53 AM

Quote-The range you have specified is within point blank range of 30-30
What exactly does that mean?

I always thought it just meant close, but it sounds like you are saying there will be no bullet drop.

youp · January 29, 2010, 06:42 AM

Point blank range is the adjustment of sights to allow for the bullet to never be more than a set dstance above or below the line of sight.

It depends on several factors; the velocity, the ballistic coefficient of he bullet, and the distance the sight(s) are above the bore.

For exmple, sight in 2 inches high at 100 yards, then the poi is 3 inches high at maybe 130 or so and falls to 3 inches low at 200 or so. All depends on the round, bullet, and sights. The result is you do not make any adjustments to the sights or sight picture to hit a 6 inch target. Of course this is for deer and not a prairie dog.

Best to do the range thing again.

Morgoroth · January 29, 2010, 07:17 AM

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.
I just found a good source in my area of cheap slugs so I am going to have to try that once I find a place where I can actually see more than 30yards to shoot.

hogdogs · January 29, 2010, 08:03 AM

Starting at 30 yards with old fashion rifled slugs. Get that figured out than stretch out the yardage.

Brent

James R. Burke · January 30, 2010, 05:42 PM

If your looking for a decent rack you will see it way before you get the gun up anyways. The scope does come in handy at distance, dusk, thick brush etc.

T. O'Heir · January 31, 2010, 01:01 AM

"...hate a levergun with a scope..." It's like scoping an SKS or M1 Carbine. Buggers up the balance.

Lawyer Daggit · January 31, 2010, 01:33 AM

When I started hunting thirty years ago, I believed i would not be able to hit a thing without a scope- reading shooting mags had got me convinced you could not hit a thing without one.

I recently bought a 1963 manufactured 94- one of the last before Winchester wrecked the model. Removed the rear sight to fit a scout scope, then got guilty and could not bring myself to drill such a gun.

It now wears a peep sight and I am going to refit the metal rear sight.

The balance and handling of such a gun is amazing- and has lead to me removing the scope from my 9422 and installing a peep (with changed front sight) on it as well (I still have a scope on my 9417).

I have an MLR .308 (like a BLR) and will upgrade the irons on it to a peep sight and do away with the scope.

At normal hunting ranges- if your eyesight is good, I think iron sights are all you really need, and as people have commented, scoping some guns 'aint natural' destroying their natural sense of balance.

January 22, 2010, 03:03 AM	#28
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,295	Rules for lever rifles Here are the Commandments for lever rifles. Thou shalt not put a 'scope on thy lever rifle. One shall remove all white line spacers on thy lever rifle so as not to offend me. A stainless lever rifle is an abomination to my will.

January 23, 2010, 11:00 AM	#30
youp Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: south of Canada, eh? Posts: 438	My son has a 4x Nikon on his 94/30-30 and loves it. I recently received my great Uncle's 94/32 spec. Eyes really do not do the buckhorn justice. Do not think I will have it drilled and tapped, the top eject means offset scope mounts. I am not concerned about the 'value' loss should I scope it. Gun is mine until death or the blue hats do us part. (Could be the same, will cross that bridge when I get there) Probably will find a Lyman or Marble Arms (NOT Marbles) tang sight. Or maybe a scout type mount. We will see... __________________ Use enough gun.

January 24, 2010, 03:32 AM	#31
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,295	oh gosh Geez youp, its yours and all, but don't drill a 94/32, please. Tangs give you the longest sight radius, but a peep/aperature is not much worse. And I agree, buckhorn's are the pits, no matter how traditional. Is the 94 you own pre drilled/tapped, for an aperture/peep? Rear notch and front bead sights are now starting to give me fits as well. I've replaced most all my lever and auto carbines w/ peeps and either ashley front posts, or modified the beads, and still can shoot them acceptably, for a while longer anyhow. I've thought about a sourdough, but have not done it. I modify the beads by taking a fine, small file and put a SLIGHT up slanted face (say 30 degrees) on them. This seems to catch the light better, esp if there's any sun, and eliminates the wishy/washy undefined look of a rounded one. You may not wanna do that to a vintage 94, but it'd beat drilling it in my book.

January 24, 2010, 10:42 PM	#33
youp Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: south of Canada, eh? Posts: 438	Bama, Doan worry, be happy I found fair priced Lyman No2 at MGW. http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/...ies/U345310810 It is on the third wave of improvements. Working on a couple of stocks first. __________________ Use enough gun.

January 27, 2010, 04:21 PM	#43
youp Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: south of Canada, eh? Posts: 438	doodles, Look good for Marlin use. Winchesters do not have that solid top. morgor, The range you have specified is within point blank range of 30-30, 32 spec, and 35 Rem. I have no experience with the 44 Mag class and believe 150 yards too far for 357 mag. __________________ Use enough gun. Last edited by youp; January 27, 2010 at 04:24 PM. Reason: additions

January 20, 2010, 04:29 PM	#26
Alan Duke Senior Member Join Date: September 1, 2009 Location: Tomball,TX Posts: 111	Did the same thing on my Model 94 this year. made it feel like a totaly different gut and felt WAY more confortable. I'm with ya on this one hogdogs.

January 20, 2010, 04:46 PM	#27
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I was swinging it and pointing raising and lowering it like a little kid with a brand spankin' new Red Ryder on Christmas morn'... Sorts felt irresponsible and immature for a moment but shrugged that off sayin' "Man this thing feels like a totally different and new rifle..." Me sho likey mo betta now! Brent

January 23, 2010, 10:24 AM	#29
shafter Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2009 Posts: 1,624	Nothin worse in my opinion. You'd never catch me putting a scope on any lever action. We buy them for their looks, easy handling, and historical appeal. A scope ruins all of this.

January 24, 2010, 10:48 AM	#32
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	I wear trifocals. Hassle factor when using irons. My cure came from IPSC days. (Daze?) I had the lens lab glue an extra small lens at the upper inside corner of my sighting-eye lens. The correction is that for arms length, instrument panels, etc. Perfect for iron sights. The sights are sharp, the target has a very slight blur. But when you hunt in Ma Bell country, irons generally just ain't the best deal.

January 26, 2010, 07:09 AM	#34
Morgoroth Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2010 Posts: 198	I know this is showing my ignorance, but what type of sights are "Tang" and "Buck horn"? Also, do you still have to "Sight in" open sights like you do a scope? I only have a shotgun with bead sights and a .22 with a scope, so I don't have a lot of experience with iron sights. Which is something that I will be rectifying.

January 26, 2010, 09:44 AM	#35
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Well, sights usually have a range of height adjustment. Most are in at least a dove tail groove and can be drifted left or right if needed. The open sight is much more "shooter specific" as in the way you mount the gun and set your head to look down the rifle. Tang sights, in the case of lever actions, are a flip up peep sight with much more elevation adjustment that is mounted behind the hammer on the receiver tang... Buck horns are the regular open sight with a curved view to the rear blade ie: buckhorn shaped... Brent

January 26, 2010, 09:49 AM	#36
Morgoroth Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2010 Posts: 198	Nice. Thanks, I had no idea what you guys were talking about. Do tangs get knocked out of alignment more often that buck horns since the tangs have the movable parts?

January 26, 2010, 09:51 AM	#37
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I don't know, but there are a slew of guys that swear by the tang sights... I never got that far though Brent

January 26, 2010, 10:27 AM	#38
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	A sight mounted on the tang gives a much longer sight radius. Like the difference between a snubby revolver and one with a 6" barrel. The peephole makes it easier for consistency in the sight picture. The human eye/brain readily can tell if something is centered in a circle. As with a scope: The gun is not more accurate. It is easier to shoot accurately.

January 26, 2010, 10:51 AM	#39
Doodlebugger45 Senior Member Join Date: April 15, 2009 Location: Wyoming Posts: 1,717	Anyone who wants peep sights for their lever action might want to check this site out. http://skinnersights.com/index.html

January 26, 2010, 11:10 AM	#40
Morgoroth Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2010 Posts: 198	How do you guys adjust for bullet drop with peep sights that don't have sliders? It seems like going from shots at 25 yards to shots at 150 you would have to factor that in.

January 26, 2010, 11:26 AM	#41
oneoldsap Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2009 Location: I live in the foot of the Green Mountains of Vermont Posts: 1,602	As a rule you don't make elevation adjustments in the field with iron sights for hunting . There are calibrated target sights on the market that you do adjust on the range . I think people should learn to shoot with iron sights before they ever use a scope ! Just my opinion ! You aren't a driver till you can drive a stick , and you aren't a shooter till you master the irons .

January 26, 2010, 11:36 AM	#42
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	I just need to know where i am shooting at about 85 yards with a .30-30... for closer or further it is just a matter of putting the "target image" lower or higher in my sight... For instance, if a deer is 125 yards out, I aim a few inches below the spine for a center of vitals impact, for 25 yards, I aim for a couple 2 or 3 inches above the sternum for a similar POI... Peeps... same thing... In the buck horn image above, it shows changing the pin position of the front sight. I don't personally do that. Brent

January 28, 2010, 07:53 AM	#44
Morgoroth Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2010 Posts: 198	Quote-The range you have specified is within point blank range of 30-30 What exactly does that mean? I always thought it just meant close, but it sounds like you are saying there will be no bullet drop.

January 29, 2010, 06:42 AM	#45
youp Senior Member Join Date: December 15, 2005 Location: south of Canada, eh? Posts: 438	Point blank range is the adjustment of sights to allow for the bullet to never be more than a set dstance above or below the line of sight. It depends on several factors; the velocity, the ballistic coefficient of he bullet, and the distance the sight(s) are above the bore. For exmple, sight in 2 inches high at 100 yards, then the poi is 3 inches high at maybe 130 or so and falls to 3 inches low at 200 or so. All depends on the round, bullet, and sights. The result is you do not make any adjustments to the sights or sight picture to hit a 6 inch target. Of course this is for deer and not a prairie dog. Best to do the range thing again. __________________ Use enough gun. Last edited by youp; January 29, 2010 at 06:43 AM. Reason: grammar

January 29, 2010, 07:17 AM	#46
Morgoroth Senior Member Join Date: January 12, 2010 Posts: 198	Thanks. That makes a lot of sense. I just found a good source in my area of cheap slugs so I am going to have to try that once I find a place where I can actually see more than 30yards to shoot.

January 29, 2010, 08:03 AM	#47
hogdogs Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 31, 2007 Location: Western Florida panhandle Posts: 11,069	Starting at 30 yards with old fashion rifled slugs. Get that figured out than stretch out the yardage. Brent

January 30, 2010, 05:42 PM	#48
James R. Burke Senior Member Join Date: January 3, 2009 Location: U.P. of Mich/Quinnesec Posts: 1,897	If your looking for a decent rack you will see it way before you get the gun up anyways. The scope does come in handy at distance, dusk, thick brush etc.

January 31, 2010, 01:01 AM	#49
T. O'Heir Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 12,453	"...hate a levergun with a scope..." It's like scoping an SKS or M1 Carbine. Buggers up the balance. __________________ Spelling and grammar count!

January 31, 2010, 01:33 AM	#50
Lawyer Daggit Senior Member Join Date: December 5, 2004 Posts: 1,181	When I started hunting thirty years ago, I believed i would not be able to hit a thing without a scope- reading shooting mags had got me convinced you could not hit a thing without one. I recently bought a 1963 manufactured 94- one of the last before Winchester wrecked the model. Removed the rear sight to fit a scout scope, then got guilty and could not bring myself to drill such a gun. It now wears a peep sight and I am going to refit the metal rear sight. The balance and handling of such a gun is amazing- and has lead to me removing the scope from my 9422 and installing a peep (with changed front sight) on it as well (I still have a scope on my 9417). I have an MLR .308 (like a BLR) and will upgrade the irons on it to a peep sight and do away with the scope. At normal hunting ranges- if your eyesight is good, I think iron sights are all you really need, and as people have commented, scoping some guns 'aint natural' destroying their natural sense of balance.

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