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Old August 19, 2013, 03:08 PM   #1
Wreck-n-Crew
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Scale off? Powder bad? Load data wrong?

I have been loading 9mm with Winchester WST and found it hard to work a load up but managed a decent load with help from a friend I use to load with and his Chronograph.

He no longer has it and I no longer have access to one as a result. Trying to avoid buying one.

I started loading 45 ACP with the WST I have realized that the max powder load (5.1 with a 200 GRN LSWC) according to the load data seem light . The recoil is lighter than factory ammo and the "Pop" sounds lighter as well.

I have always loaded with just a few powders (Bulls eye, Win 231, and Red Dot mostly), and never had an issue that puzzled me until now.

My first question is this: Does the sound and felt recoil differences reflect load as much as it seems it should?


If so I have the wrong load? too light? Scale off (doubtful)? Powder bad? Load data inaccurate (from Winchester)?

I have checked these things and disqualified them:
COAL (right at minimum) crimp (plenty).

Has anyone had the same thing with the same powder? Different powder? Found load data too light?
Tested a lighter sounding/feeling load and the Chronograph read good or slower than normal?
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Old August 19, 2013, 03:37 PM   #2
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The load data is correct. If your scale is correct, you have the right load. Some bullet/powder combinations feel and sound distinctly different than others that are giving the same velocity. It has to do with the burning rate and pressure of the powder being used. I wouldn't give it too much concern if I were you. If it groups well and you're comfortable shooting it, don't worry about it.

One more thing....the scale. Do you have any check weights to validate accuracy? You can simply use some different weight bullets to do a quick check. Most factory jacketed bullets are within +/- .1grains.
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Old August 19, 2013, 04:28 PM   #3
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Quote:
One more thing....the scale. Do you have any check weights to validate accuracy? You can simply use some different weight bullets to do a quick check. Most factory jacketed bullets are within +/- .1grains.
I only currently have a Manual LEE powder scale and only goes to 100 GRN. I do know someone with a digital and may go double check it.

I check the scale for Zeroing on every use as well. I have a Lee perfect powder measure and it is pretty consistent when checking against the scale.

I don't trust the volume method of measuring with the LEE Perfect Powder Measure or I would go by volume then compare to weight.
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Old August 19, 2013, 04:34 PM   #4
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Get Thee a Chronograph.
It's all guess work without one.
A basic Chrony brand costs less than a box of 1000 bullets.
And it's a money saver in the long run.
You can have fun checking out your pellet gun, too.
Maybe even your fast ball.
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Old August 19, 2013, 06:40 PM   #5
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You are only dropping 5.1 grains so you should be able to weigh that. Weighing loaded rounds is very unreliable.
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Old August 19, 2013, 08:01 PM   #6
Wreck-n-Crew
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Weighing loaded rounds is very unreliable.
Another good point. I don't ever weigh the whole thing. The bullets have variances that will exceed powder weight plus I mix my brass and they weigh different as well.

Loading by volume is supposed to be more accurate. The LEE Perfect Powder Measure is set @ 6.08 which is suppose3 to be 5.04 GRN. MY scale is reading 5.0 on average so weight and volume appear to be accurate.

Either the powder is bad/damp or the data is a bit on the light side for WST I think. Only a chronograph will confirm the FPS and then I guess go from there.
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Old August 19, 2013, 08:08 PM   #7
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Scale off? Powder bad? Load data wrong?

If your scale can weigh grams and you don't have a calibration weight a us nickel is 5 grams.
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Old August 19, 2013, 08:28 PM   #8
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5 grams is 77.16 grains.
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Old August 19, 2013, 08:49 PM   #9
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get a set of good calibration weights for your scale....

No, I never adjust a load based on sound or felt recoil ....different powders might give you a burn rate, that just feels very different ...they build pressure differently than the factory ammo...it doesn't mean your loads are "light" ...

Trust the load data...check more than one source / but in general, I tend to belive the powder mfg's data.

A good powder measure on your press ...with any good powder should be able to drop consistently + or minus no more than 0.1 grain ....and that's the most variance you should expect ...or you need to start investigating if you have a static problem, something might be loose on the press's powder measure. "Dippers" are not a good way to dispense powder....

but no, you can't weigh a finished cartridge and figure anything out useful about the powder charge that is in the case...the variations in the cases alone is too great - to make weighing a finished cartridge any value....and some bullets ( like in a 230gr ) may vary as much as 8 or 10 grains -especially on the low side on the cheaper plated bullets especially vs true jacketed bullets.

Lots of things will affect powder drops....relative humidity, air temp, static, issues on powder measure, how a powder is stored, etc....even your technique when loading ....is bench stable, is press stable, is the press clean, is it properly lubed...
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Old August 19, 2013, 09:26 PM   #10
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Quote:
If your scale can weigh grams and you don't have a calibration weight a us nickel is 5 grams.
Forgot that !

Quote:
Lots of things will affect powder drops....relative humidity, air temp, static, issues on powder measure, how a powder is stored, etc....even your technique when loading ....is bench stable, is press stable, is the press clean, is it properly lubed...
Have a new climate control system including furnace and AC. The humidity settings on the thermostat (too fancy for a beginner, had to read the book on this thing) keep it dry.

If the powder has a moisture issue it would have to been before I purchased it. But still get the feeling powder is not right.

WST is suppose to be a fast burner but this batch seems to have characteristics more similar to BLUE DOT.

Anyway I will check my scale with another one just to be absolute. Then Chrono a few rounds.

Quote:
No, I never adjust a load based on sound or felt recoil ....different powders might give you a burn rate, that just feels very different ...they build pressure differently than the factory ammo...it doesn't mean your loads are "light" ...
Even if the Chrono says the speed is down and the scales are right, pointing to bad powder I would not change the load to feel and neither will I use the powder, Just get some more.

I have never had a problem with data being wrong, but I have always used just a few powders or followed what data my friend or brother would have already set up and all was well.

Also realize the loads may feel different and maybe sound a little different. They just sound and feel way different. Not a little light, but real light. Guess I need to work the tree and find out where the branches lead to know for sure what may or may not be off.

Thanks guys!
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Old August 20, 2013, 10:59 PM   #11
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I have yet to see a post where g.willikers gets it wrong.

This one is no exception.

Like he said: Get thee a chronograph. It's all guesswork without one.
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Old August 23, 2013, 05:38 PM   #12
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Nickels are nice and cheap but for a back up Dimes are if I remember right 34.8 grains.

I have about 5 washers of different weights for my Lee 100 grain scale. I weighed them on two friends scales to check accuracy and then sanded them down to round numbers. Works like a charm if I have doubts.
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Old August 23, 2013, 07:52 PM   #13
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Scale off? Powder bad? Load data wrong?

When I get off work ill check a dime on my scale.
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Old August 24, 2013, 03:17 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigJimP
"Dippers" are not a good way to dispense powder....
Dippers do have their drawbacks:

Require the operator use skilled technique

Slower than most measures

and their virtues:

Never go out of adjustment (unless you have one of the adjustable dippers).

Inexpensive

And now we return to the original subject of the thread.

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Old August 24, 2013, 03:19 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monoxide
When I get off work ill check a dime on my scale.
I suggest you check several dimes (or nickels or any other coin) individually. When you see what they weigh, you will understand why.

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Old August 25, 2013, 12:26 PM   #16
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I started with a Lee Safety Powder Scale. As all permits, replace it with an RCBS or Redding beam scale. Something like a 502 or 505 is plenty good. Coins can be used as check weights. Google it, but if you have a friendly compounding pharmacist as them to weigh and write down the weight of a penny, dime, and nickel. Keep them is a special place and use them only as check weights.
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Old August 27, 2013, 05:57 PM   #17
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Keep them is a special place and use them only as check weights.
Good Idea.

Update: Stopped by the LGS to pick up some patches, another bore brush, and some Hoppes' Number 9.

Figured I needed a little slower powder as they seem to perform better in 45.
Found a pounder of WSF and decided I would try it out while I wait on a Chronograph to be dropped on my doorstep.

Loaded a few 45 with the starting load 6.0 GRN. They performed great. Dead on accurate. 20 rounds inside 2" at 33 feet and is as accurate as I can get with the factory loads.

I noticed the pop and recoil were just like any 45 I ever shot. So I got to thinking, man my scale is on and this powder works well, measures well, (little more dirty than WST) and performs great with starting loads, I really cant wait to get both of these tested with the Chronograph.

So today I was meeting a guy for a gun trade and got the Chrono, figured try the gun out (the one I was trading for) with both loads and test the FPS will kill two birds with one stone.

Here's what I found:
Scales checked fine and loads were to weight.

Five round average FPS with Max load WST: 614 FPS
Five round average FPS with Starting/min load WSF: 841 FPS

The WST was underperforming by almost 300 FPS.

Conclusion:?
Something went wrong with the WST, must have gotten moisture and it wasn't here and must have been when I loaded up some supplies and took them by my friends house. left it there by accident and retrieved it a few days later. I had totally forgotten about it when I was trying to figure what it could be that was causing my dilemma.

Either way I am out a littler powder, but I have some good and got my load on the first try....not a bad day
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