Lead Bullets with no load data?

[T.A.Sharps]

I have a box of 100 .452" 255 grain lead cast bullets that I picked up at a gun shop.

I was wonderring if it is safe to load a random type of bullet with no specific load data for that bullet, but using another 452 255gr bullets data.

I've noticed a lot you can pick up a box of lead bullets at almost any gun shop, like "Shooters Choice" I think is one brand I saw. However, they are not like Sierra or Hornady where you can find specific load data for that specific bullet.

[SL1]

T.A.Sharps,

The design of the lead bullet and the hardness of the lead both affect the max load data for any given powder.

If you tell me
1. what the bullet design is,
2. what is the cartridge the bullets will go into,
3. what powder(s) you are interested in using, and
4. what gun you will shoot them in,
I will look through my manuals and probably come up with some load data you can use.

Also, you wrote "cast" bullets. Those are harder than "swaged" lead bullets and can use heavier powder charges. So, please tell me if they are really swaged rather than cast.

SL1

[stinger]

Go buy a can of Unique.

Just do it.

Then follow the load manuals' data. I'm assuming this is for .45 Colt, yes?

[Sevens]

I was wonderring if it is safe to load a random type of bullet with no specific load data for that bullet, but using another 452 255gr bullets data.

Typically, it is safe to go ahead and use the suggested STARTING charge, but don't ever start with a max load. Furthermore, there's a big difference if the load data you are looking it is based on a jacketed bullet but you intend to use a lead bullet.

What you do is to reduce the load 10-15% to be safe, and build up from there while paying attention and looking for signs of pressure.

Some calibers (and perhaps even more so, some powders) are more forgiving than others.

The safest way to come up with a load to start with in your situation is to consult 2 or 3 different sources and see how they compare.

[Unclenick]

The 255 grain is an old standby for the .45 LC. It may be a flat base and flat point round nose. I have an RCBS mold for that one. There is also a Lyman SWC mold in that weight, 454424. Hmm. Still have some of the unlubed RCBS bullets in a tray somewhere, too. I'll go look.

(later)

O.K. These are 0.725" long. The flat on the nose is too small to protect a primer in a tubular magazine, so I'm not sure of its purpose other than to limit length. They would seat 0.425" into a .45 LC case for a COL of 1.512. At that depth, 5.0 grains of Trail Boss, 6.0 grains of Hodgdon Universal or of Unique would be a good starting point, though the Universal will burn cleaner and more completely than the Unique, and meters more easily from a powder measure.

The Lyman SWC seats to 1.575" COL. That raises the charges about 0.3g grains for same peak pressure.

[SL1]

Before we start giving powder recommendations and load data to T.A.Sharps, we need to be sure we know what he is shooting. He might intend to use those .452" bullets he "picked-up at the gun store" in anything from a .45 ACP to a 454 Casull or even a 460 S&W. I know it is a classic bullet weight for the 45 Long Colt, but that does assure us that is what he is intending to load them into. (Yes some people have tried 255 gr bullets in the 45 ACP.)

More info, less assumptions = more safety, more satisfying loads.

SL1

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Regardless of what you are shooting it in, I wouldn't worry about it. Most of the bullets I've loaded and shot were done using data from a different bullet, but in the same weight and general type. So if you find load data for another 255 gr in the same cartridge and for the same gun, you should be fine, JMO. As mentioned don't start any reloading at/near the max charge.

[SL1]

Jayhawkhuntclub,

Again, I don't think it is wise to assume much here, since we do not know much about this handloader's experience or knowledge, nor the gun, cartridge or type of cast bullet. If he understood all of the factors and had adequate reference materials to deal with them, he probably would not be asking us this question in the first place.

I don't want to get too picky by making examples that probably are not the actual situation at hand. But, if he is loading for a 45 ACP or low pressure 45 Colt replica (or original), more care is required than for a Ruger in 45 Long Colt or a Freedom Arms in 454 Casull. Also, if the bullet is mostly inside the case when loaded (such as a wad cutter or some SWCs) it can take a lot less powder than a bullet that is much more outside the case (such as the LBT WFN and BWC designs), even though the two bullets are the same weight. Gas checks can also make a substantial difference in max loads.

So, my offer still stands that I will try to get him some referenced load data for his 255 grain bullets if he will tell me what shape they have, what powders he is interested in using, what cartridge he is loading and what gun he is shooting them in. I don't think that is much to ask.

SL1

[Gbro]

I like the old Lyman loading handbooks. They are great for cast bullet data.

Here is a good one on E-bay, better hurry as i might toss in a bid on it
http://cgi.ebay.com/Lyman-Cast-Bulle...QQcmdZViewItem

[T.A.Sharps]

Thanks for all the replies everyone,

I have not loaded anything yet.

The bullet is a lubed lead Semi wadcutter flat point, it is 255grains, and .452". I think they would have to of been cast from a known die, they were nothing special, part of a series of cast bullets, I think done by a local guy that were being sold in a Fin And Feather.

The powder I will be using when I start reloading is Unique, which I would be loading 45LC to shoot from my Colt 3rd gen. I know that the Colts handle the low end of the pressure scale, 14,000cup I believe.

Really I just want to finally get started in loading, I've been building up the tools and supplies slowly over time, and last time I went to the store I saw standard 30'06 for over $30 average, so I think its time to start loading.

Plinking with mid velocity, something like 850fps, is all I need to load for now. I can work accuracy/hunting loads later.

[SL1]

T.A.Sharps,

My old Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (circa 1980) gives Unique Loads for the 45 Long Colt for bullet 452424 (a 255 grain plain base SWC with one grease groove). The manual says the same data apply to their bullets 454424 and 452626. Their bullets were cast with #2 allloy. Start load is 6.0 grains for 590 fps, and max load is 8.5 grains for 845 fps. No pressures were given, but these loads are less than those in their "Ruger and Contender only" section. Velocities are from a 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk.

My new Speer Manaul #14 lists data for a similar RCBS bullet, number 45-255. Speer doesn't give pressures for individual loads, but says the loads in this section do not exceed 14,000 psi. Speer recommends not loading their cast bullets to less than 11,000 psi. Their start load is 7.7 grains of Unique for 789 fps with a max of 8.5 grains for 846 fps. Velocities are from a 5.5" Colt Single Action Army.

I don't know what manuals you have, so I will also note that these max lead bullet loads exceed the max loads for jacketed bullets. For example, the same Speer manual lists a max of 7.8 grains Unique for the 250 gr. Speer GDHP (840 fps). My Hornady Manual (4th Ed.) lists 7.7 grains max for their 250 gr XTP-HP, producing 800 fps from a 7.5" Ruger Blackhawk. (This is not an unusal situation for the old, low pressure cartridges, but is the reverse of what is often seen for the newer, high-pressure cartridges).

So, I would say that 8.5 grains of Unique is a reasonable max for 255 gr SWC lead bullets in your gun and 7.8 grains is a reasonable max for jacketed bullets of about the same weight.

Unique can be dirty in low pressure loads, so you may end-up near the top of the load range for cleanliness. Another powder that is supposed to be cleaner is Hodgdon's Universal, but I have never used it to make the comparison for you. Maybe somebody else can give you their experience with it in your application.

Hodgdon's latest manual (2008) lists Universal data for a "250 gr cast LRNFP" bullet as 6.5 gr. start (9,200 CUP) and 7.8 gr. max (13,000 CUP). Velocities were given as 742 and 941 fps, respectively, from a 7.25" barrel. The LRNFP bullet shape is significantly different from your SWC shape in that it is designed to provide more powder space for the same bullet weight, but also engraves sooner and may produce more friction in the bore. So, differences in peak pressure effect are hard to predict from bullet shape alone. Since Universal is typically listed as slower than Unique, I don't think that 7.8 grains of it would get you into trouble with your SWC bullet. Maybe others have better data for this application of Universal.

Now that we know what you are shooting, I hope others will jump in with their experience and data sources. You have a popular bullet in a popular cartridge in a popular gun. There must be a wealth of data and experience for it on this forum.

SL1

[somerled]

Avoid using old data for Unique. The formulation has been changed since the 80s. In a 3rd Generation Colt SAA, do not use 8.5 grains of Unique and 255 grain cast SWCs. It is too hard on them. The last batch I loaded were charged with 7.9 grains and chronographed around 850 fps from a 5 1/2 barrel. I still thought they would be stout for a SAA and used them in a Ruger Blackhawk.

Alliant shows a max of 8 grains of Unique for a 250 grain cast lead bullet. It probably doesn't have as much bearing surface as a 255 grain SWC. I think I would start around 7.2 grains and go from there.

The often-recited loads of 7.5 grains and a 240 grain Keith SWC for .44 Specials and 8.5 grains of Unique and a 255 grain SWC for .45 Colts used by Skeeter Skelton and Elmer Keith still float around today. Their Unique and our version are two different critters.

[T. O'Heir]

Load for the bullet weight. Who made them doesn't matter.

[MADISON]

Been there---Dun That!
My load for the 255 grain lead bullet was 5.0 grains of UNIQUE.
Even that lite, it ws not comfortable to shoot.

[Unclenick]

Madison,

What gun and gun weight were you shooting? Even in the .45 ACP, that should only be in the 750-ish fps range. Not punishing. I have run cast 300 grain boattail bullets out of a 1911 at 700 fps, and not found it particularly unpleasant shooting. I did use a 20 lb spring, but even so it didn't feel particularly different from regular hardball fired with that same spring.


SL1,

Agree on verifying the round being used. Note the COL's I specified for the loads could only be met in the Long Colt or longer case, though I should have spelled that out, I can see.


T O'Heir,

Not necessarily so on bullet weight. Short, straight wall cases, especially, see significant pressure rise from increased seating depth, so you need to be sure the weight and seating depth both match. Lead and jacketed bullets have different start pressures and obturation pressures, so you need to match bullet construction, in that regard, too. As an extreme example, 4.0 grains of Bullseye under a 158 grain round nose lead bullet in the .38 special at 1.55" COL produces pressure under the 17,000 PSI SAMMI maximum for the .38 Special cartridge. However, the lighter 148 grain wadcutter, seated flush with the case mouth, eats up enough powder burning room to make that same charge hit around 26,000 PSI, which is not safe in older guns.

[SL1]

Somerled,

Note that the 8.5 grain Unique max loads I quoted came from a very new source (2007) as well as a somewhat old (1980) source. The new source test gun was a Colt Single Action Army with a 5.5" barrel. So, it looks like the Unique data really has not changed much with respect to pressure- tested loads approaching 14,000 psi.

The Alliant data you mentined lists 8.0 grains for a pressure of only 11,800 CUP, and does not specify any range for charge weights. Note that Speer recommends NOT going below 11,000 psi. (Yes I know that psi and CUP are not identical, but you can only use what you have been given. It is clear that 8.0 grains does not exceed 14,000 psi if 8.5 grains does not exceed 14,000 psi. It is also clear that 8.0 grains is above 11,000 psi if 7.7 grains is above 11,000 psi.)

I don't shoot that cartridge/gun in question, so I can't comment on how it feels or its effects on the gun. T.A.Sharps will have to experiment to see what he likes. Between 7.7 and 8.5 grains of Unique, he should be safe enough.

With respect to Unique being "reformulated since the 1980s," I read somewhere last summer that Unique was one of the very few Alliant powders that has NOT yet been reformulated to make it cleaner burning.

SL1