9mm Nato

[Brit]

Rock,

The average sales staff in those days, just knew the prices?

Once taught a Security Course (the one I taught for Security in Ontario) to a group of people in Newfoundland, they had a great time, drawing from holsters! Thought they had died and gone to heaven.

One of the class had a gun store, we all went back there for lunch.

They had a S&W Rep doing a demo. I set up showed the Glock take apart class! Lots of bits.

I had fun, especially with the children. The other rep never bothered with them!
Glock in GA, we got lots of orders!

[peacefulgary]

9mm NATO is really nothing special.
Winchester makes a 124g 9mm NATO.
It aint weak, but it definitely aint that hot either.

Muzzle Velocity: 1185 fps
Muzzle Energy: 387 ft. lbs.

Per Winchester's website:
http://winchesterle.com/Products/han...s/RA9124N.aspx

[Revoltella]

The Mark I Light Rifle was, as a result, too light, and they quickly broke.

S&W beefed up the design, and the guns still broke.

At that point, the British wanted their $1 million back, which S&W had spent on development. Repayment would have resulted in S&W going out of business.

All the rifles that were delivered we're dumped into the Thames.

[Seven High]

Question: Has NATO standardized on the 124 grain bullet with US specs or are the other members using different bullet weights?

[Mike Irwin]

"All the rifles that were delivered we're dumped into the Thames."

After the war the surviving rifles, both Mk I and Mk II, were cut in half and dumped into one of the deeper spots in the North Sea.

Dump them in deep water, and no one can get them back. After WW II ended the Americans dumped hundreds of thousands of weapons into the approaches to Tokyo Bay where it starts falling off into the Pacific at places where it's 1,000 or more meters deep.

[smee78]

I saw a few boxes like that at Walmart here and there, I like shooting the heavier 124 & 147 grain ammo, It sounds and feels different that the standard 115 grain.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by Seven High

Question: Has NATO standardized on the 124 grain bullet with US specs or are the other members using different bullet weights?

I can't verify, but I don't believe so.

Originally Posted by Mike Irwin

After the war the surviving rifles, both Mk I and Mk II, were cut in half and dumped into one of the deeper spots in the North Sea.

This matches my recollection as well. IIRC a large number of the rifles had reportedly never been unpacked from their shipping crates before being unceremoniously cut in half and thrown overboard.

[Luger_carbine]

Any 9mm that has been a NATO gun (has a NATO stock number) - like Browning Hi-Power, Beretta M9, Glock 17, has to be able to fire 9mm NATO, and probably have been used for decades to fire 9mm NATO.

Until the recent arrival of pocket nines, I can't envision a 9mm Luger that wasn't built to fire 9mm NATO anyway... **

And even the pocket nines that rule out +P don't rule out 9mm NATO - at least not that I've seen.


** except for the Glisenti - which I had never heard about until reading this thread

[Nick_C_S]

During the peak of the craziness, I bought 3 boxes (the max allowed) of Winchester "white box," because they were available and I had about 10 seconds (literally) to make up my mind, or they would have sold out.

They were the 124g "NATO" type. I didn't notice that part until I got them home. I broke out the calipers and started measuring. They were dimensionally fine, so I stopped worrying about it. But I haven't shot them yet, and was still curious why they said "NATO" and not "Luger."

Now I know. Good post.

[57K]

Don't confuse CUP and PSI. The SAAMI Spec for 9 x 19mm is 35,000 PSI/33,000 CUP. The Nato spec is 36,500 PSI. Neither are very close to 35,000 CUP. Before SAAMI lowered the 9mm's pressure spec to 35,000 PSI/33,000 CUP in the late 80's, the former spec was 35,700 CUP which is nearly identical when measured in the SAAMI method using a piezoelectrice tansducer to the spec for +P at 38,500 PSI. The old standard was easily warmer than the current NATO spec.

[coronatj]

Well, All I know is that my Star M30 doesn't like 115 gr 9's. But will eat the 124 all day long.

[44 AMP]

"All the rifles that were delivered we're dumped into the Thames."

After the war the surviving rifles, both Mk I and Mk II, were cut in half and dumped into one of the deeper spots in the North Sea.

I can tell you for certain that one of the S&W 9mm rifles survived, and is in the hands of a collector. I have personally seen it displayed at a show, some years ago. Never thought I would see one "in the flesh", but I have. There might possibly be a couple more in private collections in the country, but if there are more than that, the collector told me, he would be "amazed".

[carguychris]

I can tell you for certain that one of the S&W 9mm rifles survived, and is in the hands of a collector... There might possibly be a couple more in private collections in the country...

IIRC about 200 Light Rifles were auctioned off by S&W several decades ago; most were MkII's but a few were MkI's. AFAIK these rifles were mostly contract overruns, although a few had been used for trials, and a few other had failed pre-delivery QA/QC inspection.

One interesting facet of the Light Rifle story- and a major reason why it was so disastrous for S&W- is that there were essentially no prototypes in the classic sense. The Brits signed the contract based upon drawings and mock-ups, and S&W proceeded directly to production, with field trials being conducted while full-scale production was ramping up. Therefore, when the MkI soundly failed the trials, S&W wound up not only modifying the design, but having to rework all of the production tooling- only to have the MkII fail as well. This is the reason S&W wound up with spare rifles.

OTOH, IIRC, it's believed that none of the Light Rifles actually delivered to the Brits are in private hands. Several are displayed in British government museums, and a few others are rumored to be stashed in British military vaults, but none were ever sold as surplus or lost in battle.

[Bart Noir]

Just a few years back I saw a literally award winning display of S&W guns, at a Gun Show in Puyallup WA. The very nice family that were showing that display had included 2 of those light rifles, one of each version I believe.

Bart Noir

[44 AMP]

Bart, I believe that is the display I saw, the odds are good. The show I saw them at was in Kennewick.

I am positive about the location, but not so sure about precisely when, as it was several years ago, and my sense of time has never been that good.

Several yards of table, covered in S&Ws all kinds, rare and unusual mostly, with nicely printed descriptions and some history. Truly an awesome collection.

[Mike Irwin]

All of the Light Rifles that were in British hands, except for a couple for museum purposes, were destroyed.

Several hundred were booted loose from S&W in 1975 and were sold to collectors.

Apparently early in the 1990s another batch was found and sold. NRA got one of the light rifles at that time; I was on staff and edited the article on it.

[lcpiper]

There was some Mil Surplus 9mm that hit the market a little over a year ago that was a different animal. It was intended for SMGs and not really safe in handguns but I don't remember what it was called.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by lcpiper

There was some Mil Surplus 9mm that hit the market a little over a year ago that was a different animal. It was intended for SMGs and not really safe in handguns but I don't remember what it was called.

AFAIK the only 9mm ammo that bears a NATO cross-in-a-circle headstamp, has been widely sold in the USA, and is unsafe for most 9mm handguns is marked L7A1 on the headstamp and the boxes (assuming it's in the original packaging). This is the Sterling SMG ammo mentioned by Herr Walther earlier in this thread. IIRC this ammo was subject to a recall and an official ATF warning in the mid 1990s.

Various other types of overpressure 9mm submachine gun ammo have been sold on the American market over the last several decades, but with the notable exception of the L7A1, these types generally do not bear NATO markings on the headstamps.

[Arizona Fusilier]

Thanks for all the replies everybody. I got quite the history lesson to boot!