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Old October 3, 2013, 11:45 PM   #26
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The shinier the brass, the easier it is to find in the grass.
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Old October 3, 2013, 11:53 PM   #27
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Okay, this string has me getting curious.

I think I'm like NWPilgrim - I'm getting more persnickity about my brass as I get older. I use to only wash my brass and lay it in the sun to try (not a good process). Now I have a Lyman dry media tumbler. And I want to continue dry tumbling when the brass gets home from the range.

But I think I want to take the next step. I want to wet tumble with stainless steel media after sizing-decapping.

I know nothing about wet tumbling. Anyone care to elaborate on the process? Advantages, disadvantages? Equipment? Things to be aware of?

Thanks.
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Old October 4, 2013, 06:09 AM   #28
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I did the sonic tumbleing, Worked great,but decided that I did not really care for the hassel. Made a board about 1 foot square with 100 nails in it to stand brass in when done. Brass was very clean inside and out. Found out when I went to shoot that brass was kinda sticky in the chamber. Talked to a few others that clean that way. What I got was ( in there words). The brass gets so clean inside and out that one needs to either throw them back in tumbler or use lube when seating the bullet. I did the retumble thing in media and all was well. Now I only sonic clean every time I am going to anneal my brass ( every 4th load ). I think it gets them so clean that they start sticking. When you are finished sonic cleaning once,take a close look at the inside of the neck. Lots of rough edges and such. I think It has a possablility of scratching the bullet during seating. Tumble in Media after sonic and those edges seem to be gone ( filled in would be better word ).Much smoother seating of bullet.
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Old October 4, 2013, 08:05 AM   #29
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I guess that answered your question.
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Old October 4, 2013, 10:50 AM   #30
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Thank you for the responces. I do CLEAN my brass every time i load. A rag with some cleaner keeps the crap out of my dies. Also my rifle brass never touches anything but the ammo box and my gun (and fingers to place it in each). So the brass is clean and inspected but not tumbeled. Yea it takes a minute or two longer but it is time away from the office, phone, idiot box, and chores.

Now when i was reloading pistol i tumbled it. It was thousands of rounds of pistol brass compared to tens of rounds of rifle brass.
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Old October 4, 2013, 11:26 AM   #31
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Thorough cleaning of cases gives you consistent internal case capacity which results in consistent pressure. If the inside walls of the case are caked in trash from the last 2-3 times the case was loaded and you put in the same powder charge you will get higher pressures. Additionally if you load brass 9-10 times eventually some of that trash is going to break free and become dirty loads run in the gun.

It makes good sense for correct treatment of your fine weapon to run clean ammo in it and also it could potentially be unsafe to run too dirty a case. A little grime is probably no big deal but if you are pushing the limits on pressure and have a case that's been loaded 6 times but not cleaned...it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

YMMV but that's my take on it. It's so much more than "keep brass shiny".
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Old October 4, 2013, 11:33 AM   #32
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But I think I want to take the next step. I want to wet tumble with stainless steel media after sizing-decapping.

I know nothing about wet tumbling. Anyone care to elaborate on the process? Advantages, disadvantages? Equipment? Things to be aware of?
I just finished cleaning 500 .308 cases with stainless and really like it. Here is my process:
  • Decap in Universal decapper die
  • Load tumbler with 5# pins, 100-120 .308 cases, 1 gal water, 1 Tbsp dawn detergent, 1/4 tsp Lemishine
  • Tumble for 3 hrs (much quieter than vibratory)
  • Dump everything in media separator to extract brass--just a few rotations totally removes pins and water from brass.
  • Rinse brass and put on large baking sheet, put in 150F oven for 1 hr
  • Pour waste water through fine kitchen strainer to recover pins; dump waste water
  • At every step I use a magnet to ensure no pins are left behind (on the floor after pouring water, in the separator, in the waste water bucket, in the brass pail)

The media separator, fine strainer, and magnet are key to making everything mess-free and fast.

After figuring things out in the first batch I got it down to a pretty quick operation. Overall, it takes far less time than dry tumbling and ensuring no corn cob is left in flashholes. Although after cleaning I then resize, trim and swage if necessary, and then polish in corn cob with car wax. Stored this way, when I go to reload all I do is charge with powder and seat the bullet.

The pluses are that it is fairly quick, MUCH quieter than vibratory, the machinery seems very robust, and it absolutely gets the brass as clean or cleaner than ultrasonic. Also, less hassle than ultrasonic, because the Lyman US cleaner had a timer with maximum 8 minutes, but it took 5-6 cylces to get cases clean. So I had to be there to reset the timer every 8 minutes.

There is no downside compared to ultrasonic. You have to use more equipment to separate the brass, pins and water, but they are fairly cheap and with them the process is fast. Compared to dry media the cleaning itself is less time overall since I don't have to probe every flashhole. But, like sonic cleaning, I do have to dry the brass. I use a 150F oven for an hour or more but that is only about 2 minutes of my time.

I bought the kit from http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/ which includes the pins, Lemishine, media separator, and the Thumbler tumbler Model B. Then i went to housewares section of grocery store and bought a kitchen strainer with very fine wire mesh (some are too coarse). I already had a lot of magnets on the fridge, plus I have one of those mechanics telescoping magnets that is very handy but not necessary.

When assembling the tumbler be sure to read the directions and make sure the roller sleeves are situated to their stationary position. Otherwise they will rotate against the metal stand. Also, I found the bolts on the motor stick out too far and one of them scraped on the pulley wheel. So I used a Dremel cut-off wheel to take off about 1/8" from the bolt and no more scraping.
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Old October 4, 2013, 01:14 PM   #33
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NWPilgrim, thank you for the extensive explanation. I appreciate your time.

I'm putting this on my list of things to buy. Right now, my CC is maxed from all the buying up of supplies - like everybody else did this spring/summer (does that make me part of the problem?).

Yeah, this is must have - early next year.

Thanks again.
- Nick.
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Old October 4, 2013, 01:18 PM   #34
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The stainless steel pins are cheaper here:

http://bestbyte.net/merchant/merchan...&Store_Code=BB

Steve
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Old October 4, 2013, 10:45 PM   #35
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Any one every try after decapping:
after sonic cleaning, rinse with water a couple times.
place tub in rubbing alcohol, lift out and shake about, then replace in alcohol (this displaces air bubbles).
Lift out of alcohol and shake basket well.
Let dry overnight (no electric bill for oven).
Save alcohol for next several times.
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Old October 5, 2013, 12:06 AM   #36
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When I started I saw no need to tumble, I just threw it in a 5 gallon bucket with boiling water, salt, bone rage and a tiny bit of soap. That actually did an okay job. On an impulse buy one day, found a medium vib tumbler from harbor freight, now I don't know why I didn't do from the beginning, it was cheap and easy to do, and makes a bucket of reloads something I'm proud of and not shamed for others to see it. And I enjoy tumbling for some reason.
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Old October 5, 2013, 12:28 AM   #37
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Thorough cleaning of cases gives you consistent internal case capacity which results in consistent pressure. If the inside walls of the case are caked in trash from the last 2-3 times the case was loaded and you put in the same powder charge you will get higher pressures. Additionally if you load brass 9-10 times eventually some of that trash is going to break free and become dirty loads run in the gun.

It makes good sense for correct treatment of your fine weapon to run clean ammo in it and also it could potentially be unsafe to run too dirty a case. A little grime is probably no big deal but if you are pushing the limits on pressure and have a case that's been loaded 6 times but not cleaned...it could be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

YMMV but that's my take on it. It's so much more than "keep brass shiny".
I disagree. There's no accumulation or "caking" of anything inside the case walls.

What you're talking about is from 100 years ago, from the build up of fouling caused by black powder.

Smokeless powder leaves a bit of carbon behind, but it does not build up each time a shell is fired. Neither does the residue left by a fired primer in the primer pocket.

Corncob media stuck in primer flash holes is eliminated by buying 20/40 grit corn cob from Grainger. Or the fine ground walnut from harbor freight. Do a search, it's bedtime!
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Old October 5, 2013, 12:57 AM   #38
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Why tumble brass

"Caked" was an exaggeration but there is enough buildup to affect pressure/case capacity. If you don't believe me, test it.
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Old October 5, 2013, 03:48 AM   #39
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I won't even deprime on my press. I use the hand deprimer, to keep everything super clean. Deprime, tumble, brush out, then continue normal reloading (like already prepped new brass) that is, already unifromed primer pocket and flash hole, etc.

The reason is: maybe by not tumbling, will you see a difference?.... Probably not. But, do enough little things and they add up to something larger. I.e. a noticeable improvement.

I'm a mechanic. Does doing a fuel injector cleaning on an engine do much difference? Not really. But a port an polish, 5 angle grind, radius valves/pistions, knife edge crank, etc. it works miracles.

Not because any one improvement helps that much, it's the sum of little things that make a large improvement.

If you are willing to take the time and effort (or money) to do all the little things, then you will see an improvement, but will one little thing help much, not really.
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Old October 5, 2013, 07:02 AM   #40
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Snuffy- Yes build up in a case can become a issue. They did a test about 2 years ago. After firing a 6BR case 7 times they found that case compactly was down from build up in the case as compared to that same case when it was new. Now how much increase in pressure that amounts to I don't know. But yes it is a fact that your cases will retain build up inside and tumbling in media will not remove it. For a Deer hunter- No big deal, For a Bench shooter, Big Deal being most bench loads are at,near or over max loads.

The reason is: maybe by not tumbling, will you see a difference?.... Probably not. But, do enough little things and they add up to something larger. I.e. a noticeable improvement.

Serria 280 hit it right there. They say each step done can improve accuracy 2 to 3 %. Nothing by itself, but total them all together and now you have something.
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Old October 5, 2013, 07:21 AM   #41
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it is a fact that your cases will retain build up inside and tumbling in media will not remove it.
Corn cob, walnut media does not remove it, but evidently stainless-steel pin tumbling does.
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Old October 5, 2013, 08:15 AM   #42
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Bart expounded on my view,,, It is a lot easier on my equipment than say dirty ole range brass.
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Old October 5, 2013, 01:05 PM   #43
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Snuffy- Yes build up in a case can become a issue. They did a test about 2 years ago. After firing a 6BR case 7 times they found that case compactly was down from build up in the case as compared to that same case when it was new.
If I'm understanding that, you mean the case would take less powder as it was fired? To me that would prove nothing. Could be other reasons the powder level grew.

If I were to do a test, it would revolve around the weight of the brass case as it was fired multiple times. If the carbon inside the case is building up, it would progressively weigh more. Can't escape that fact.

Visually looking at powder levels can be tricky. "It appears to be higher each time it's fired". Not a very precise measurement.

It's true that dry media does not remove the carbon, at least not much. But I'm pretty sure it removes SOME of it. The loose stuff.

Yes, the wet stainless pin tumbler works great. But for me, I see no reason to get the brass THAT clean.

My system of 20/40 grit corncob from ;
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/ECO...st-Media-2MVR5

I use nu-finish car polish in with the corncob, helps give a bright finish, and protects the brass from tarnishing. The old Midway tumbler has been going strong for 15+ years,I hope it outlives me.
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Old October 5, 2013, 01:31 PM   #44
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Snuffy- Yes to both your questions. It would take less powder and yes the case will weigh more. As for steel pins cleaning inside. I have to take your word on that. I have never used them,but you have me interested in them now.
Case level is important when you are pushing it already. I load 25.5 gn Varget in my 223. That is a compressed load already. While I do not know how much that raises pressure, I do not want to find out the hard way
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Old October 5, 2013, 06:00 PM   #45
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Snuffy- Yes to both your questions. It would take less powder and yes the case will weigh more. As for steel pins cleaning inside. I have to take your word on that. I have never used them,but you have me interested in them now.
Case level is important when you are pushing it already. I load 25.5 gn Varget in my 223. That is a compressed load already. While I do not know how much that raises pressure, I do not want to find out the hard way
Perhaps if the case was gently handled, then reloaded right away, there might be an accumulation of carbon inside the case. I really don't know for sure, do you? I've never seen it or worried about it. Use a dry tumbler with a polish, you get the loose stuff, the carbon stain remains, I doubt it amounts to anything.

It would require a laboratory set-up at a range to test it, not casual observation of "it looks like a higher powder level than before". Powder compacts at different rates depending on how it's charged into the case. Dump it in, then use a long drop tube with the same powder, you'll see a vast difference in where the top of the charge ends up.

As for the stainless pins, I don't use them, never will. I just relate what others have said about them. Too expensive, time consuming, the fiddle factor, not necessary. It's either OCD, or wanting to eliminate every variable that they can. Yes, they clean the inside AND if deprimed first, they clean the primer pockets.

So will an ultrasonic. That I can tell you first hand. I too is time consuming, you simply must assure they are dry before loading. My harbor freight has about a 40 case, (.223), limit and as said it takes about 4-8 minute cycles to get-er-done.
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Old October 5, 2013, 06:17 PM   #46
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Actually, I think the best reason to tumble brass is to get it clean enough so that it will not foul up your reloading dies. Dirt and grit are the enemies of smooth operation of your reloading press, and dirt in the dies can scratch them and leave marks that will impress themselves into your brass and may cause problems down the line.

This.

Running dirty ammo through your dies and gun would be like running your automobile without ever changing the oil filter ....... Will it run? Yeah, but wear will accelerate, and service life diminish.
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Old October 5, 2013, 11:20 PM   #47
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I have a friend who has reloaded Bench Rest ammo up to 120 times, the cases are tumbled regularly and trimmed as necessary. Cases were neck sized and bumped when needed. He finally retired the cases when pressure signs became evident. One case he had cut in half, and YES there was substantial carbon buildup.
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Old October 6, 2013, 05:47 AM   #48
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Snuffy-not to keep this going, but that elaborate setup is what I am telling has been done already. That was the test they did. Now on your side here to 99.9% of us this does not matter. Just pointing out that it is something that happens. Now as JCwitt points out. there was a lot of carbon build up on his friends case.
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Old October 14, 2013, 03:53 AM   #49
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Sometimes after a lot of use I'll chuck my Lee shell holder in a drill and grab some steel wool an Really make em shine. Why? Just because
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Old October 30, 2013, 12:13 PM   #50
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Instead of tumbling...would it be sufficient to just put each case in my trimming rig (hooked up to a drill) and simply spin the case for a few seconds while holding some scotchbright against it? I figure that could polish a box of used brass pretty quickly.

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