2A and the viability of recalling a senator

I'vebeenduped · March 8, 2013, 01:33 PM

Arizona is one of the few states which allows for recalls of its Senators. However it was ruled that the states can't put term limits on federal elected officials in United States Term Limits v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 in 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Te...c._v._Thornton). None the less, Russel Pearce was recalled in November 2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Pearce).

In light of recent events from a politician in AZ in relation to 2A and drones, I was considering joining another recall effort and I am questioning its viability. Please respond with your thoughts and please, no politician bashing.

Evan Thomas · March 8, 2013, 01:46 PM

To find out whether such a recall effort would be viable in Arizona, I'd suggest contacting the office of the Secretary of State there. For detailed instructions on the Arizona recall process, see this publication by that office. For anyone except local officials, it looks like a hard row to hoe.

There are currently 19 states that allow recall elections. Ballotpedia has a summary.

BarryLee · March 8, 2013, 01:47 PM

I guess my initial thought on recalls is unless the person has committed some gross impropriety the recall has little chance. While you may be very upset about something a politician did someone else may be very pleased with another aspect of their performance. I suppose the big question is do the citizens of Arizona see tepid support for the Second Amendment as something worthy of a recall effort.

sigcurious · March 8, 2013, 01:54 PM

You do realize that Russell Pearce was a state senator, not a United States senator right?

Quote:

Under Article I, Section 5, clause 2, of the Constitution, a Member of Congress may be removed
from office before the normal expiration of his or her constitutional term by an “expulsion” from
the Senate (if a Senator) or from the House of Representatives (if a Representative) upon a formal
vote on a resolution agreed to by two-thirds of the Members of that body present and voting.
While there are no specific grounds for an expulsion expressed in the Constitution, expulsion
actions in both the House and the Senate have generally concerned cases of perceived disloyalty
to the United States, or the conviction of a criminal statutory offense which involved abuse of
one’s official position. Each house has broad authority as to the grounds, nature, timing, and
procedure for an expulsion of a Member. However, policy considerations, as opposed to questions
of authority, have appeared to restrain the Senate and House in the exercise of expulsion when it
might be considered as infringing on the electoral process, such as when the electorate knew of
the past misconduct under consideration and still elected or re-elected the Member.

As to removal by recall, the United States Constitution does not provide for nor authorize the
recall of United States officers such as Senators, Representatives, or the President or Vice
President, and thus no Member of Congress has ever been recalled in the history of the United
States.

Source

So in short, no it is not viable.

Glenn E. Meyer · March 8, 2013, 02:01 PM

Here's the deal. If you think it really won't work - don't do it. You make just look silly in the eyes of those who don't buy your argument.

The noble statement may not be the way to go. It's fun but ...

Then you fall into the inoculation effect. That is if you make a weak argument which is shot done, future arguments by you (even if valid) tend to be ignored or devalued.

So, if it is a bunch of folks who are seen just to be ranting - don't do it. Rational arguments for a larger group on the issues is better.

Is there legit polling that says the number of folks necessary to recall exist or enough sympatico to be convinced?

Evan Thomas · March 8, 2013, 02:19 PM

Quote:

...the big question is do the citizens of Arizona see tepid support for the Second Amendment as something worthy of a recall effort

Probably not enough of them would. Arizona has very stringent requirements for petitions for recall elections; the short version is that it would take a boatload of signatures.

The Constitution does seem to prohibit it, but even if that prohibition were successfully challenged, it would be very difficult in Arizona.

And Glenn is right: if it's just a tilting-at-windmills sort of thing, all it does is make us look foolish.

I'vebeenduped · March 8, 2013, 02:24 PM

"Is there legit polling that says the number of folks necessary to recall exist or enough sympatico to be convinced? "
There was a recall effort in 2001 against this same politician which was still after United States Term Limits v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779. I cannot imagine that it would not had been shot down at its inception if it were "impossible." This individual has a history of being questionable as to where his votes will be cast. I think his reelection was fairly close (going off of simple memory), so those in number who are growing impatient must be growing...

Glenn E. Meyer · March 8, 2013, 02:52 PM

See if there is legit research on popularity of the critter.

I'vebeenduped · March 8, 2013, 03:16 PM

http://ktar.com/6/1545913/Poll-John-...lar-US-Senator

"Just 36 percent of Arizona voters approve of the longtime Republican, while 56 percent disapprove, a Public Policy Polling survey found.
Those are the worst numbers the North Carolina-based organization has found in polling more than 90 sitting senators across all 50 states.
"His problem is that voters in his own party don't even like him that much," said Tom Jensen, Public Policy Polling Director.
"When you antagonize your own party base and don't gain popularity with anybody else in the process you're not going to be doing very well." "

According to "http://electionsmeter.com/polls/john-mccain" He is below 22%.

This is based off of a bing search of popularity of McCain. I know KTAR is pretty heavy Right, I am not sure who funds or operates elections meter. It doesn't seem that he is making many friends. My contention isn't just that his support for 2A seems undependable. I am also concerned with the way he responded to the drones issue and his campaign promises, etc. the RKBA and Due Process should be strongly defended in my opinion. Heck, if it were up to me, I'd clean out the entire Senate.

vranasaurus · March 8, 2013, 03:57 PM

Did you not read what I wrote in the thread that is now closed. The constitution doesn't permit recalls of elecyed officials at the federal level.

Evan Thomas · March 8, 2013, 03:57 PM

I know it seems like a long time to wait, but it would probably be a better use of money and energy to start working now to oust Sen. McCain in 2016. I've read that he is planning to run again, but he may well be vulnerable, given one thing and another -- not least his age.

pnac · March 8, 2013, 04:09 PM

Another example of why the 17th Amendment needs to be repealed.

I'vebeenduped · March 8, 2013, 04:22 PM

vranasaurus- "Did you not read what I wrote in the thread that is now closed. The constitution doesn't permit recalls of elecyed officials at the federal level."

Yes... Yes, I did.

Vanya-"I know it seems like a long time to wait, but it would probably be a better use of money and energy to start working now to oust Sen. McCain in 2016"

I have to admit... I cried a little, inside, when I read that.

pnac-"Another example of why the 17th Amendment needs to be repealed."

From Wiki; "Critics of the Seventeenth Amendment claim that by altering the way senators are elected, the states lost any representation they had in the federal government." I know that it is beyond cheesy to quote and use Wiki, but sometimes they say just the right thing.

pnac · March 8, 2013, 04:49 PM

Quote:

pnac-"Another example of why the 17th Amendment needs to be repealed."

From Wiki; "Critics of the Seventeenth Amendment claim that by altering the way senators are elected, the states lost any representation they had in the federal government." I know that it is beyond cheesy to quote and use Wiki, but sometimes they say just the right thing.

That quote from Wiki is an understatement. The 17thA, to quote the "Citizens Rulebook": "moved us from a complex Republic to a simple republic much like the style of the Soviet Union. State rights were lost and were plunged headlong into a democracy which our forefathers warned was the vilest form of government because it always ends in oppression."

**Tom Servo** · March 8, 2013, 11:39 PM

McCain is old guard. He's well-connected and nigh untouchable when it comes to something like this.

Even if it were to be legal, the chances of a recall being successful are dependent on getting enough voters to turn out for it.

SPEMack618 · March 8, 2013, 11:56 PM

Furthermore, regardless of Senator McCain's track record on various civil rights, would it really do RKBA cause any good to recall a former Navy captain with the Navy Cross for his service as a POW?

JimDandy · March 9, 2013, 01:13 AM

Given his first in, first out stand as a PoW, and not choosing an early parole to embarrass his dad the CINCPAC, I'd let him end on a lost election than the more humiliating recall. I may not agree with what he's been doing lately, but I still think he's got a pretty good personal character.

March 8, 2013, 01:33 PM	#1
I'vebeenduped Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Location: AZ Posts: 202	2A and the viability of recalling a senator Arizona is one of the few states which allows for recalls of its Senators. However it was ruled that the states can't put term limits on federal elected officials in United States Term Limits v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 in 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Te...c._v._Thornton). None the less, Russel Pearce was recalled in November 2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Pearce). In light of recent events from a politician in AZ in relation to 2A and drones, I was considering joining another recall effort and I am questioning its viability. Please respond with your thoughts and please, no politician bashing. __________________ The natural state of man, the way G‑d created us, is to be happy. Look at children and you will see

March 8, 2013, 01:46 PM	#2
Evan Thomas Senior Member Join Date: July 7, 2008 Location: Upper midwest Posts: 5,631	To find out whether such a recall effort would be viable in Arizona, I'd suggest contacting the office of the Secretary of State there. For detailed instructions on the Arizona recall process, see this publication by that office. For anyone except local officials, it looks like a hard row to hoe. There are currently 19 states that allow recall elections. Ballotpedia has a summary. __________________ Never let anything mechanical know you're in a hurry.

March 8, 2013, 01:47 PM	#3
BarryLee Senior Member Join Date: July 29, 2010 Location: The ATL (OTP) Posts: 3,946	I guess my initial thought on recalls is unless the person has committed some gross impropriety the recall has little chance. While you may be very upset about something a politician did someone else may be very pleased with another aspect of their performance. I suppose the big question is do the citizens of Arizona see tepid support for the Second Amendment as something worthy of a recall effort. __________________ A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. - Milton Friedman

March 8, 2013, 02:01 PM	#5
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Here's the deal. If you think it really won't work - don't do it. You make just look silly in the eyes of those who don't buy your argument. The noble statement may not be the way to go. It's fun but ... Then you fall into the inoculation effect. That is if you make a weak argument which is shot done, future arguments by you (even if valid) tend to be ignored or devalued. So, if it is a bunch of folks who are seen just to be ranting - don't do it. Rational arguments for a larger group on the issues is better. Is there legit polling that says the number of folks necessary to recall exist or enough sympatico to be convinced? __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

March 8, 2013, 02:24 PM	#7
I'vebeenduped Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Location: AZ Posts: 202	"Is there legit polling that says the number of folks necessary to recall exist or enough sympatico to be convinced? " There was a recall effort in 2001 against this same politician which was still after United States Term Limits v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779. I cannot imagine that it would not had been shot down at its inception if it were "impossible." This individual has a history of being questionable as to where his votes will be cast. I think his reelection was fairly close (going off of simple memory), so those in number who are growing impatient must be growing... __________________ The natural state of man, the way G‑d created us, is to be happy. Look at children and you will see

March 8, 2013, 02:52 PM	#8
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	See if there is legit research on popularity of the critter. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

March 8, 2013, 03:16 PM	#9
I'vebeenduped Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Location: AZ Posts: 202	http://ktar.com/6/1545913/Poll-John-...lar-US-Senator "Just 36 percent of Arizona voters approve of the longtime Republican, while 56 percent disapprove, a Public Policy Polling survey found. Those are the worst numbers the North Carolina-based organization has found in polling more than 90 sitting senators across all 50 states. "His problem is that voters in his own party don't even like him that much," said Tom Jensen, Public Policy Polling Director. "When you antagonize your own party base and don't gain popularity with anybody else in the process you're not going to be doing very well." " According to "http://electionsmeter.com/polls/john-mccain" He is below 22%. This is based off of a bing search of popularity of McCain. I know KTAR is pretty heavy Right, I am not sure who funds or operates elections meter. It doesn't seem that he is making many friends. My contention isn't just that his support for 2A seems undependable. I am also concerned with the way he responded to the drones issue and his campaign promises, etc. the RKBA and Due Process should be strongly defended in my opinion. Heck, if it were up to me, I'd clean out the entire Senate. __________________ The natural state of man, the way G‑d created us, is to be happy. Look at children and you will see

March 8, 2013, 03:57 PM	#10
vranasaurus Senior Member Join Date: November 16, 2008 Posts: 1,184	Did you not read what I wrote in the thread that is now closed. The constitution doesn't permit recalls of elecyed officials at the federal level.

March 8, 2013, 04:09 PM	#12
pnac Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2008 Posts: 550	Another example of why the 17th Amendment needs to be repealed. __________________ In my hour of darkness In my time of need Oh Lord grant me vision Oh Lord grant me speed - Gram Parsons

March 8, 2013, 04:22 PM	#13
I'vebeenduped Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2013 Location: AZ Posts: 202	vranasaurus- "Did you not read what I wrote in the thread that is now closed. The constitution doesn't permit recalls of elecyed officials at the federal level." Yes... Yes, I did. Vanya-"I know it seems like a long time to wait, but it would probably be a better use of money and energy to start working now to oust Sen. McCain in 2016" I have to admit... I cried a little, inside, when I read that. pnac-"Another example of why the 17th Amendment needs to be repealed." From Wiki; "Critics of the Seventeenth Amendment claim that by altering the way senators are elected, the states lost any representation they had in the federal government." I know that it is beyond cheesy to quote and use Wiki, but sometimes they say just the right thing. __________________ The natural state of man, the way G‑d created us, is to be happy. Look at children and you will see

March 8, 2013, 11:39 PM	#15
Tom Servo Staff Join Date: September 27, 2008 Location: Foothills of the Appalachians Posts: 13,059	McCain is old guard. He's well-connected and nigh untouchable when it comes to something like this. Even if it were to be legal, the chances of a recall being successful are dependent on getting enough voters to turn out for it. __________________ Sometimes it’s nice not to destroy the world for a change. --Randall Munroe

March 8, 2013, 11:56 PM	#16
SPEMack618 Senior Member Join Date: June 21, 2010 Location: Central Georgia Posts: 1,863	Furthermore, regardless of Senator McCain's track record on various civil rights, would it really do RKBA cause any good to recall a former Navy captain with the Navy Cross for his service as a POW? __________________ NRA Life Member Read my blog! "The answer to any caliber debate is going to be .38 Super, 10mm, .357 Sig or .41 Magnum!"

March 9, 2013, 01:13 AM	#17
JimDandy Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2012 Posts: 2,556	Given his first in, first out stand as a PoW, and not choosing an early parole to embarrass his dad the CINCPAC, I'd let him end on a lost election than the more humiliating recall. I may not agree with what he's been doing lately, but I still think he's got a pretty good personal character.