Pietta "Quality" Strikes Again - Page 2

herb · May 14, 2010, 07:32 PM

ClemBert... Got my 1858 today and the latch pin is a little crooked. Not as much as your exhibit. I think they are drilling the holes to seat the pin into at an angle. Anyway I have 3 1858's that have pin installed at a right angle to barrel and 1 crooked one. Think I'll write Pietta BUT for now I'm half

andrewstorm · May 14, 2010, 10:08 PM

THats why theres a sale

CajunPowder · May 14, 2010, 10:54 PM

herb:

Sorry to hear the Gorilla gotcha' gun. I will be interested to see how things turn out.

As to the lively discussion on audible clicks while pulling the hammer back on both colts and Remmies, I've been thinking about Hawg's Remmie that has a bolt that precisely drops into the notch.

Because the Remmie has a slanted bolt, theoretically, if the bolt starts to drop the tiniest hair before the notch is completely indexed into place, then the "high side" of the slanted bolt will in fact already be inside the notch. This would prevent any over turning of the cylinder because the far side of the cylinder notch would of course slam into the outer side of ... the "high side" of the slanted bolt, and that action would of course serve to lock it up.

So one could have the bolt dropping AND the bolt entering the notch fully AND the hammer clicking into full cock all so close together it sounds like one click.

And to my mind, that would be a very, very nice Remmie and I see that locking up very tightly as the bolt would have to be very, very well fitted to the notches and maybe even the notches themselves might need a touch or two of shaping.

Jay Strite, "hear" I come!

Model-P · May 14, 2010, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Because the Remmie has a slanted bolt, theoretically, if the bolt starts to drop the tiniest hair before the notch is completely indexed into place, then the "high side" of the slanted bolt will in fact already be inside the notch. This would prevent any over turning of the cylinder because the far side of the cylinder notch would of course slam into the outer side of ... the "high side" of the slanted bolt, and that action would of course serve to lock it up.

So one could have the bolt dropping AND the bolt entering the notch fully AND the hammer clicking into full cock all so close together it sounds like one click.

Sure. And the face of the bolt will be hammering and peening the leading edge of the slot, making it narrower with time. If the bolt to slot fit is sloppy to begin with, maybe that's a good thing in a roundabout way? But, if the bolt is fit properly, then eventually it won't fit the slot. That is not a good thing. There are good reasons for proper fit and timing.

CajunPowder · May 15, 2010, 07:36 AM

Model-P:

I certainly understand the revolver is supposed to work the way it should work and that it should accept and peform with some degree of "standard timing". I agree that there is a standard and acceptable timing for an 1858 New Army model Remington revolver. The way this is described might be different by some.

If the bolt drops onto the cylinder just before the notch's leading edge, that's good in most books as it is NOT peening the edges of the cylinder notches and should drop right into the notch in a safe and consistent manner no matter how hard one yanks the hammer back. And one can go further and carefully stone the surface of the bolt to make it as smooth as possible so that it marks the cylinder as little as possible as it slides over the surface of the cylinder just before dropping over the leading edge of the cylinder notch.

There are many anecdotal stories from the Civil War and the old west that describe some REALLY wild things that were done with these pieces to great effect. More often than not I think most of them are just that though ... stories.

ClemBert has even told me that small grenades can be launched from the Remington revolver and I learned this after he corrected me. I thought small nuclear devices could be launched from them, but it seems that was just a story. The smaller grenades seem much more plausible ... but back to this timing issue.

I think because of the generally simple, basic design of these revolvers, (and I am still a newbie and still learning), I think these Remmies allow for a very flexible setup. And because of the very real variances in fitting tolerances, (and some quality control inherent in the effort to maintain a historically correct design - and manufacturerer issues), nearly every one of these revolvers could be set up just a hair differently and in the extreme, very differently.

Some of these revolvers that firingline members have gotten, (which would be unacceptable for me), are viewed almost as if they are stray dogs, good dogs ... and hurt ... puppies, thrown out of the back of a truck on a dirt road. Some members take pride in nursing them back to health with many different creative remedies.

So an 83 year old member of thefiringline.com with 70 years of guns under his fingernails might fix a broken puppy and proclaim the action has 5.843 clicks ...

... and whose to say it ain't a SHOOTER pardner!

Now on to theory ... Visualize with me the, (pointed or longer), or "high side" of the bolt beginning to drop or fall onto the cylinder. Let's suppose that the cylinder is very near the index point for the chamber so that the bolt is never going to make contact with the exterior surface of the cylinder. Perhaps the hand is a bit short and the notch is arriving relatively late. So the bolt may have the opportunity to just drop into the "open space" presented by the notch because the cylinder notch is just coming into its index position when the bolt drops.

So that high side - the point of it - is dropping into about the middle of the cylinder notch. In a perfect instance of what I'm describing, the outer side or lead edge of the bolt, (the "high edge" of the bolt), is striking the following inner edge of the cylinder notch at the SAME TIME that the top of the bolt is striking the bottom of the notch. If that were happening, the leading edge of the cylinder notch would not be touched because the short side of the bolt would be falling behind the inner edge of the leading notch.

The last point of contact would be the inside edge of the leading edge of the notch. And is this a fantasy, some perfect timing fantasy?

If the bolt is cut properly, (and I'm trying to figure this out myself), then it seems the point of the top of the high side of the bolt will be inside the open space of the notch and would therefore prevent any overturn of the cylinder as the following edge, (interior edge), of the notch strikes the surface of the bolt's high side.

Here's an animation I've prepared to try and demonstrate what might be absolutely perfect timing. However, I don't think that the tolerances exhibited in most of the revolvers I have seen, (and that have been discussed here), would allow for this type of perfect gun smithing. But I hope I'm wrong.

So this might be a "two-click" piece.

Model-P · May 15, 2010, 01:46 PM

That's a great animation! I wish I was handy with the computer like that! Kudos to you for that.

IF the hammer was cycled at the exact same rate each time, and IF the bolt spring were never to be changed (or changed to one having the exact same tension), and IF the tine on the bolt and/or cam on the hammer were to NEVER wear, then, yes, perfection would be wonderful.

But, vary anything in the order of events, and there will be problems.

Given "two-click perfection" using one set of parameters, let's see what would happen if any variable is changed:

Cock hammer more slowly- bolt will peen leading edge of slot.
Cock hammer more rapidly- high side of bolt will be peened, or will peen the following edge of the slot, or, if the spring is not "fast enough" could even overshoot the slot.
Spring changed to a lighter tension- bolt will not move as quickly, and may peen on the following edge of the slot or overshoot the slot altogether.
Spring changed to a higher tension- bolt will drop more rapidly, and harder, peening the leading edge of the slot.
Wear of tine on bolt and/or cam on hammer- bolt will drop sooner, peening the leading edge of the slot. Perhaps one could compensate by gradually adjusting his cocking speed to compensate for the wear

All-in-all, perfection would be nice, but not practical. Proper fit and timing take the variables into consideration. Really, the only thing gained by "perfection" is the lack of a mark on the cylinder, and that is partly why locking slot leades came into being.

mykeal · May 15, 2010, 10:33 PM

Hmmm. Lots of discussion about bolts dropping on cylinders causing clicks. How many clicks are there with the cylinder removed?

kwhi43 · May 15, 2010, 10:57 PM

I'm sure you have heard this before but, Did you know when you cock back
a Colt it will make 4 clicks to spell out C-O-L-T When you cock back a
3 screw Ruger single action, it will say poo-poo-pee-do Don't believe me,
Try It!!

suzukibruce · May 15, 2010, 11:07 PM

a remmy sounds like my knees when i get up....

Model-P · May 16, 2010, 12:17 AM

Quote:

Hmmm. Lots of discussion about bolts dropping on cylinders causing clicks. How many clicks are there with the cylinder removed?

Are you asking if a bolt drops against the frame, and no one is around to hear it, does it really make a sound?

Too philosophical for me. What's your point?

CajunPowder · May 16, 2010, 12:40 AM

suzukibruce:

Please clarify, is that one knee ... or two?

**4V50 Gary** · May 16, 2010, 12:44 AM

suzukibruce - I feel your pain.

suzukibruce · May 16, 2010, 01:03 AM

2 but sounds like 4...lol...

Hardcase · May 16, 2010, 01:25 PM

I feel Suzukibruce's pain, too. And then when I turn my head, it sounds like fireworks. It's a regular Fourth of July when I get up every morning!

Kinda festive, though!

CajunPowder · May 16, 2010, 01:55 PM

+1 (for humor)

May 14, 2010, 10:08 PM	#27
andrewstorm Junior member Join Date: October 4, 2009 Posts: 198	pietta junk THats why theres a sale

May 14, 2010, 10:54 PM	#28
CajunPowder Junior member Join Date: April 1, 2010 Location: Louisiana - Cajun Triangle Posts: 223	herb herb: Sorry to hear the Gorilla gotcha' gun. I will be interested to see how things turn out. As to the lively discussion on audible clicks while pulling the hammer back on both colts and Remmies, I've been thinking about Hawg's Remmie that has a bolt that precisely drops into the notch. Because the Remmie has a slanted bolt, theoretically, if the bolt starts to drop the tiniest hair before the notch is completely indexed into place, then the "high side" of the slanted bolt will in fact already be inside the notch. This would prevent any over turning of the cylinder because the far side of the cylinder notch would of course slam into the outer side of ... the "high side" of the slanted bolt, and that action would of course serve to lock it up. So one could have the bolt dropping AND the bolt entering the notch fully AND the hammer clicking into full cock all so close together it sounds like one click. And to my mind, that would be a very, very nice Remmie and I see that locking up very tightly as the bolt would have to be very, very well fitted to the notches and maybe even the notches themselves might need a touch or two of shaping. Jay Strite, "hear" I come!

May 15, 2010, 07:36 AM	#30
CajunPowder Junior member Join Date: April 1, 2010 Location: Louisiana - Cajun Triangle Posts: 223	Timing and pefection and theory. Model-P: I certainly understand the revolver is supposed to work the way it should work and that it should accept and peform with some degree of "standard timing". I agree that there is a standard and acceptable timing for an 1858 New Army model Remington revolver. The way this is described might be different by some. If the bolt drops onto the cylinder just before the notch's leading edge, that's good in most books as it is NOT peening the edges of the cylinder notches and should drop right into the notch in a safe and consistent manner no matter how hard one yanks the hammer back. And one can go further and carefully stone the surface of the bolt to make it as smooth as possible so that it marks the cylinder as little as possible as it slides over the surface of the cylinder just before dropping over the leading edge of the cylinder notch. There are many anecdotal stories from the Civil War and the old west that describe some REALLY wild things that were done with these pieces to great effect. More often than not I think most of them are just that though ... stories. ClemBert has even told me that small grenades can be launched from the Remington revolver and I learned this after he corrected me. I thought small nuclear devices could be launched from them, but it seems that was just a story. The smaller grenades seem much more plausible ... but back to this timing issue. I think because of the generally simple, basic design of these revolvers, (and I am still a newbie and still learning), I think these Remmies allow for a very flexible setup. And because of the very real variances in fitting tolerances, (and some quality control inherent in the effort to maintain a historically correct design - and manufacturerer issues), nearly every one of these revolvers could be set up just a hair differently and in the extreme, very differently. Some of these revolvers that firingline members have gotten, (which would be unacceptable for me), are viewed almost as if they are stray dogs, good dogs ... and hurt ... puppies, thrown out of the back of a truck on a dirt road. Some members take pride in nursing them back to health with many different creative remedies. So an 83 year old member of thefiringline.com with 70 years of guns under his fingernails might fix a broken puppy and proclaim the action has 5.843 clicks ... ... and whose to say it ain't a SHOOTER pardner! Now on to theory ... Visualize with me the, (pointed or longer), or "high side" of the bolt beginning to drop or fall onto the cylinder. Let's suppose that the cylinder is very near the index point for the chamber so that the bolt is never going to make contact with the exterior surface of the cylinder. Perhaps the hand is a bit short and the notch is arriving relatively late. So the bolt may have the opportunity to just drop into the "open space" presented by the notch because the cylinder notch is just coming into its index position when the bolt drops. So that high side - the point of it - is dropping into about the middle of the cylinder notch. In a perfect instance of what I'm describing, the outer side or lead edge of the bolt, (the "high edge" of the bolt), is striking the following inner edge of the cylinder notch at the SAME TIME that the top of the bolt is striking the bottom of the notch. If that were happening, the leading edge of the cylinder notch would not be touched because the short side of the bolt would be falling behind the inner edge of the leading notch. The last point of contact would be the inside edge of the leading edge of the notch. And is this a fantasy, some perfect timing fantasy? If the bolt is cut properly, (and I'm trying to figure this out myself), then it seems the point of the top of the high side of the bolt will be inside the open space of the notch and would therefore prevent any overturn of the cylinder as the following edge, (interior edge), of the notch strikes the surface of the bolt's high side. Here's an animation I've prepared to try and demonstrate what might be absolutely perfect timing. However, I don't think that the tolerances exhibited in most of the revolvers I have seen, (and that have been discussed here), would allow for this type of perfect gun smithing. But I hope I'm wrong. So this might be a "two-click" piece.

May 16, 2010, 12:40 AM	#36
CajunPowder Junior member Join Date: April 1, 2010 Location: Louisiana - Cajun Triangle Posts: 223	Knees suzukibruce: Please clarify, is that one knee ... or two?

May 16, 2010, 12:44 AM	#37
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,832	suzukibruce - I feel your pain. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

May 14, 2010, 07:32 PM	#26
herb Member Join Date: February 6, 2010 Posts: 56	ClemBert... Got my 1858 today and the latch pin is a little crooked. Not as much as your exhibit. I think they are drilling the holes to seat the pin into at an angle. Anyway I have 3 1858's that have pin installed at a right angle to barrel and 1 crooked one. Think I'll write Pietta BUT for now I'm half

May 15, 2010, 01:46 PM	#31
Model-P Senior Member Join Date: February 24, 2009 Posts: 727	That's a great animation! I wish I was handy with the computer like that! Kudos to you for that. IF the hammer was cycled at the exact same rate each time, and IF the bolt spring were never to be changed (or changed to one having the exact same tension), and IF the tine on the bolt and/or cam on the hammer were to NEVER wear, then, yes, perfection would be wonderful. But, vary anything in the order of events, and there will be problems. Given "two-click perfection" using one set of parameters, let's see what would happen if any variable is changed: Cock hammer more slowly- bolt will peen leading edge of slot. Cock hammer more rapidly- high side of bolt will be peened, or will peen the following edge of the slot, or, if the spring is not "fast enough" could even overshoot the slot. Spring changed to a lighter tension- bolt will not move as quickly, and may peen on the following edge of the slot or overshoot the slot altogether. Spring changed to a higher tension- bolt will drop more rapidly, and harder, peening the leading edge of the slot. Wear of tine on bolt and/or cam on hammer- bolt will drop sooner, peening the leading edge of the slot. Perhaps one could compensate by gradually adjusting his cocking speed to compensate for the wear All-in-all, perfection would be nice, but not practical. Proper fit and timing take the variables into consideration. Really, the only thing gained by "perfection" is the lack of a mark on the cylinder, and that is partly why locking slot leades came into being.

May 15, 2010, 10:33 PM	#32
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Hmmm. Lots of discussion about bolts dropping on cylinders causing clicks. How many clicks are there with the cylinder removed?

May 15, 2010, 10:57 PM	#33
kwhi43 Senior Member Join Date: August 21, 2008 Location: Kansas City Posts: 1,393	I'm sure you have heard this before but, Did you know when you cock back a Colt it will make 4 clicks to spell out C-O-L-T When you cock back a 3 screw Ruger single action, it will say poo-poo-pee-do Don't believe me, Try It!!

May 15, 2010, 11:07 PM	#34
suzukibruce Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2010 Location: camden maine Posts: 137	a remmy sounds like my knees when i get up....

May 16, 2010, 01:03 AM	#38
suzukibruce Senior Member Join Date: May 14, 2010 Location: camden maine Posts: 137	2 but sounds like 4...lol...

May 16, 2010, 01:25 PM	#39
Hardcase Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2009 Location: Sunny Southern Idaho Posts: 1,909	I feel Suzukibruce's pain, too. And then when I turn my head, it sounds like fireworks. It's a regular Fourth of July when I get up every morning! Kinda festive, though! __________________ Well we don't rent pigs and I figure it's better to say it right out front because a man that does like to rent pigs is... he's hard to stop - Gus McCrae

May 16, 2010, 01:55 PM	#40
CajunPowder Junior member Join Date: April 1, 2010 Location: Louisiana - Cajun Triangle Posts: 223	LMAO +1 (for humor)