Lee Factory Crimp Die 223 Rem & 45 ACP

Blue · June 8, 2009, 11:07 PM

Would like to know the pros and cons for the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Any information about accuracy and repeatability of performance. Currently working on improving my performance for 223 Rem at point blank (100 yd). Currently, grouping consistantly with my current load and 52gr Sierra BTHP.
Experimenting with OAL. Regularly can group right now at .265-.350 (5).
I have never crimped 223 Rem before and someone at the range suggested that once I find my best OAL start crimping and could get a more uniform burn and pressure build. I don't know. I know there must be some wisdom here that might have suggestions. I am a good listener and have done pretty well by listening to more experienced loaders.

Also, is the Lee Factory crimp die a good thing for 45acp. I currently taper crimp with my RCBS.

Thanks.

M&P40 · June 9, 2009, 07:03 AM

I use the Lee taper crimp die on .45 and can say nothing bad. I've been purchasing Lee's 4 piece kits and use their dies for all my autos. At 20 yds I get 2.5" groups out of my Kimber.

steve4102 · June 9, 2009, 07:21 AM

From Sierra's Exterior Ballistics.

When we stop to consider the vigorous (read, downright violent) chambering cycle a loaded round endures in a Service Rifle, it becomes pretty clear it suffers abuse that would never happen in a bolt-action. This is simply the nature of the beast. It needs to be dealt with since there is no way around it.

There are two distinctly different forces that need to be considered: those that force the bullet deeper into the case, and those that pull it out of the case. When the round is stripped from the magazine and launched up the feed ramp, any resistance encountered by the bullet risks having it set back deeper into the case. Due to the abrupt stop the cartridge makes when the shoulder slams to a halt against the chamber, inertia dictates that the bullet will continue to move forward. This is exactly the same principle a kinetic bullet puller operates on, and it works within a chamber as well.
To counteract this tendency, the semi-auto shooter is left with basically two options: applying a crimp or increasing neck tension.
Lee offers their “Factory Crimp” die as an alternative, which seems to be one of the better options for those bullets without a cannelure.

wingman · June 9, 2009, 07:45 AM

I've done "some" experimenting with the lee crimp die in 223(I use it for all pistol rounds)with a bolt action 223 and find so far it does harm accuracy but very slight difference at 100 yards, non-crimp 1/2inch but crimped rounds will open up to 1 inch, may just be with my rifle or other factors but at this point I won't crimp when shooting for tight groups.

CortJestir · June 9, 2009, 07:49 AM

I've got the .223 dies but I haven't started reloading for them yet so I can't comment, but...

Quote:

Also, is the Lee Factory crimp die a good thing for 45acp. I currently taper crimp with my RCBS.

...I also have the FCD for .45acp. It's not a necessity, but it does make setting up dies more convenient as you don't need to keep re-adjusting the bullet-seating die to get the right setting for both bullet depth and taper crimp. More importantly though, I find that using the FCD yields more consistent results for me. I use a 4-station turret so it's only a matter of one more quick pull on my lever.

Bottom line, I guess, is if what you're doing is working, the FCD is more of a convenience than a necessity.

Qtiphky · June 9, 2009, 01:02 PM

I shoot strictly auto loaders with the .223 and have found that in my guns I get better consistency and accuracy when I use the FCD. That said, it depends on you personally and what you believe. To me it makes sense, especially with an autoloader.

Alleykat · June 11, 2009, 12:32 PM

Like most hipower competitors (although I'm not one), I don't crimp .223 rounds for either my bolt rifles or ARs.

Can't tell from some of the posts if some of you guys know the difference between Lee's FCD for handguns and rifles. They work entirely differently. The rifle FCD imparts a crimp, using a collet and a mandrel.

The handgun FCD imparts either a roll crimp or modified taper crimp, depending on the caliber, and post-sizes with a carbide sizing ring @ the base of the die.

There's not enough recoil in a .223 to cause movement of the bullet during firing, unless the neck tension is way too loose.

Slamfire · June 12, 2009, 08:37 AM

I crimp the heck out of lead bullets for pistol ammo. Perfect score for Bullseye rapid fire is a group within 2 inches at 25 yards.

Most people consider a rifle that does not shoot within 2 inches at 100 yards to be inaccurate.

I have been shooting M1a's, Garands, AR's, FAL's, recently PTR91, and none of those rifles needs crimped bullets. Neck tension is sufficient.

When using my kinetic bullet puller, it is in fact, difficult to get a .223 bullet out of the case neck.

No serious Long Range or Highpower competitor, and I have been squadded with the best, uses a crimp die on their ammo. None, Nada, Zero, Zilch. If there was the slightest, the tiny tinest advantage to using a crimp die, everyone would be using it.

The Lee rifle factory crimp die will damage rifle bullets. And you cannot tell until you pull the bullet. These are 6.5 SMK damaged by overcrimping with a Lee factory crimp die.

I am not spending 25 or 30 cents a match bullet only to swage them out of shape with a Lee Factory crimp die.

PCJim · June 12, 2009, 12:13 PM

I use the FCD for 9mm and 45acp with good results.

I purchased one for .223 and gave it a try. I did not notice any better grouping on the one test that I performed. I did not try any further tests as I did not like the creases the FCD was putting on the case mouth. I figured it was overworking the mouth and the brass would end up having a shorter life.

HK_USP_45 · July 30, 2009, 02:26 PM

There are several posts stating that crimping isn't necessary on .223 because of the low recoil. I'm new to reloading so I don't have a lot of real world experience, but after reading some of the manuals and info available, I thought that one of the primary reasons for crimping is that when shooting semi-autos, the rapid loading of rounds into the chamber can force the bullet into the case. I know with tube magazines and with magnum cartridges crimping can also be important.

steve4102 · July 30, 2009, 05:22 PM

Quote:

There are several posts stating that crimping isn't necessary on .223 because of the low recoil. I'm new to reloading so I don't have a lot of real world experience, but after reading some of the manuals and info available, I thought that one of the primary reasons for crimping is that when shooting semi-autos, the rapid loading of rounds into the chamber can force the bullet into the case. I know with tube magazines and with magnum cartridges crimping can also be important.

Read post #3 above.

QBall45 · July 30, 2009, 06:53 PM

FCD, I use it on all my 45 ACP and 223. I figure that since the ammo mfgr's use LEE's FCD that this was what I wanted to use to crimp my loads. Have yet to have ant problems with decreased case life. Got some 223 with more than 6 reloads on em.

**Unclenick** · July 30, 2009, 09:12 PM

It's a long running debate. There is some loss of ballistic coefficient in the distorted bullet, so it isn't a good idea for long range shooting, but accuracy in terms of repeatability is not usually adversely impacted by the indentations as long as it stays well clear of the bullet base. The added bullet pull will increase start pressure and consistency of start pressure, but uniforming primer pocket depth in your cases then applying uniformly very firm seating force to the primer will usually accomplish the same thing. I think, instead, the accuracy improvements observed with use of the FCD are usually because it locks the bullet straight in the case so bullet alignment is better maintained against knocking around. The Sierra comments about bullet pulling in self-loader are another aspect in that it is important for bullets to have the same distance of the throat for peak accuracy. The FCD helps keep that constant.

But all theoretical considerations aside, you really just have to try the thing with your gun and ammo and see if you can get an improvement with it? Be aware the increased start pressure affects barrel time a bit, so if you have a sweet spot load without the crimp you may need to adjust the powder charge a bit to get a sweet spot with the crimp.

Sidewinder72 · July 30, 2009, 10:45 PM

I have a factory crimp die for 45acp and 9mm. I love them both. I tested with taper crimp first and then the factory crimp die. I do not see any differance in accuracy. I can not tell you about the 223

yrralguthrie · August 3, 2009, 10:52 AM

I am not a competitive shooter, nor do I care if the grouping is 2in or 1in. I do want consistancy.

A couple of things come to mind when reading these posts:

If you have a really tight group, that likely means you've worked up a very good load for your rifle with no FCD. Just loading some rounds with the FCD and finding when you shoot that you can't get as tight a group is not a test. As one poster has said, to actually test the effectiveness of the FCD you will have to experiment with different loads. Just one test with a few loads with the FCD and then saying it opens up the group is just a way of dismissing the die. You don't think it works so you don't actually test it to find out.

Second, if you are shooting say 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards and that is your best, then I maintain you cannot possibly get as good a group from any other load than you are ambivalent about unless you use a complete mechanical rest for your gun. If you hold the gun you will change something in your shooting habit without even knowing it.

A person cannot shoot their best unless they are confident in their tools. If you think a load is inferior it will be...at sub moa levels.

ljg

David Wile · August 3, 2009, 09:42 PM

Hey folks,

Slamfire's post is quite correct. The Lee Factory Crimp Die is a solution looking for a problem. The main reason for its existance is to make Lee more money by convincing folks they need one.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

Crankylove · August 4, 2009, 01:06 AM

I have the Factory Crimp Dies for 9mm and .45 ACP. I don't see a improvement in accuracy, or feeding, I just think they are easier to set up than my taper crimp die, or the roll crimp die that Hornady included with the die set for my .45 ACP dies.

Kyo · August 4, 2009, 03:09 AM

Although I am new to reloading, I will say that I have read many many positive views on this die for the 45. Everyone who says something positive about it pretty much state that it eliminated all of their failure to feed problems. The other thing it provides is consistency because all your rounds go through it.
I mean, you can reload without it and see what happens. If you have a problem you can try it out and see if it fixes those problems.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Wile

Hey folks,

Slamfire's post is quite correct. The Lee Factory Crimp Die is a solution looking for a problem. The main reason for its existance is to make Lee more money by convincing folks they need one.

Best wishes,
Dave Wile

freakshow10mm · August 4, 2009, 07:43 AM

The FCD is a crutch for people to get in their mind they can produce poor quality ammunition in hopes that some magic $9 die will solve all their problems. If people simply learned how to load ammunition properly, they wouldn't have the problems with their ammunition that they do. I was a believer in the FCD when I first started handloading. Then I wised up and found out it's not and never is the "right answer".

jaguarxk120 · August 4, 2009, 07:56 AM

The FCD:barf: is the ShamWow:barf: of reloading.

Alleykat · August 4, 2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

I figure that since the ammo mfgr's use LEE's FCD that this was what I wanted to use to crimp my loads.

You're basing your decision on ridiculously erroneous information. Where the hell did you get that little tidbit??

freakshow10mm · August 4, 2009, 02:40 PM

There's a bit of smoke and mirrors about that statement on Lee's site. The manufacturers they are talking about are not guys with automated machines. They are hand operated progressive presses. Once you get into automated equipment, your standard 7/8-14 tpi dies go bye-bye. Trust me.

jaguarxk120 · August 4, 2009, 04:03 PM

The munitions manufacture's were crimping cartridges long before richard lee was out of diapers.

Much of lee's tooling was gleaned from others, cheapened and put on the market to sell to unsuspecting first time reloaders.

Edward429451 · August 4, 2009, 04:58 PM

Where's the black eye smiley what is Lee's trademark lol!

It's a durn shame when one has to come to people for the truth instead of the manufacturer. Good thing TFL is here for that reason.

June 8, 2009, 11:07 PM	#1
Blue Senior Member Join Date: June 6, 2009 Posts: 113	Lee Factory Crimp Die 223 Rem & 45 ACP Would like to know the pros and cons for the Lee Factory Crimp Die. Any information about accuracy and repeatability of performance. Currently working on improving my performance for 223 Rem at point blank (100 yd). Currently, grouping consistantly with my current load and 52gr Sierra BTHP. Experimenting with OAL. Regularly can group right now at .265-.350 (5). I have never crimped 223 Rem before and someone at the range suggested that once I find my best OAL start crimping and could get a more uniform burn and pressure build. I don't know. I know there must be some wisdom here that might have suggestions. I am a good listener and have done pretty well by listening to more experienced loaders. Also, is the Lee Factory crimp die a good thing for 45acp. I currently taper crimp with my RCBS. Thanks.

June 9, 2009, 01:02 PM	#6
Qtiphky Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2008 Location: Upper Michigan, above the Mackinac Bridge Posts: 568	I use the FCD for 223 I shoot strictly auto loaders with the .223 and have found that in my guns I get better consistency and accuracy when I use the FCD. That said, it depends on you personally and what you believe. To me it makes sense, especially with an autoloader.

July 30, 2009, 09:12 PM	#13
Unclenick Staff Join Date: March 4, 2005 Location: Ohio Posts: 21,063	It's a long running debate. There is some loss of ballistic coefficient in the distorted bullet, so it isn't a good idea for long range shooting, but accuracy in terms of repeatability is not usually adversely impacted by the indentations as long as it stays well clear of the bullet base. The added bullet pull will increase start pressure and consistency of start pressure, but uniforming primer pocket depth in your cases then applying uniformly very firm seating force to the primer will usually accomplish the same thing. I think, instead, the accuracy improvements observed with use of the FCD are usually because it locks the bullet straight in the case so bullet alignment is better maintained against knocking around. The Sierra comments about bullet pulling in self-loader are another aspect in that it is important for bullets to have the same distance of the throat for peak accuracy. The FCD helps keep that constant. But all theoretical considerations aside, you really just have to try the thing with your gun and ammo and see if you can get an improvement with it? Be aware the increased start pressure affects barrel time a bit, so if you have a sweet spot load without the crimp you may need to adjust the powder charge a bit to get a sweet spot with the crimp. __________________ Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor NRA Certified Rifle Instructor NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle

August 3, 2009, 10:52 AM	#15
yrralguthrie Member Join Date: July 2, 2009 Posts: 56	FCD or not I am not a competitive shooter, nor do I care if the grouping is 2in or 1in. I do want consistancy. A couple of things come to mind when reading these posts: If you have a really tight group, that likely means you've worked up a very good load for your rifle with no FCD. Just loading some rounds with the FCD and finding when you shoot that you can't get as tight a group is not a test. As one poster has said, to actually test the effectiveness of the FCD you will have to experiment with different loads. Just one test with a few loads with the FCD and then saying it opens up the group is just a way of dismissing the die. You don't think it works so you don't actually test it to find out. Second, if you are shooting say 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards and that is your best, then I maintain you cannot possibly get as good a group from any other load than you are ambivalent about unless you use a complete mechanical rest for your gun. If you hold the gun you will change something in your shooting habit without even knowing it. A person cannot shoot their best unless they are confident in their tools. If you think a load is inferior it will be...at sub moa levels. ljg

August 4, 2009, 01:06 AM	#17
Crankylove Senior Member Join Date: July 8, 2008 Location: 8B ID Posts: 1,753	I have the Factory Crimp Dies for 9mm and .45 ACP. I don't see a improvement in accuracy, or feeding, I just think they are easier to set up than my taper crimp die, or the roll crimp die that Hornady included with the die set for my .45 ACP dies. __________________ The answer to 1984 is 1776

June 9, 2009, 07:03 AM	#2
M&P40 Member Join Date: May 25, 2009 Location: New Castle, PA Posts: 95	I use the Lee taper crimp die on .45 and can say nothing bad. I've been purchasing Lee's 4 piece kits and use their dies for all my autos. At 20 yds I get 2.5" groups out of my Kimber.

June 9, 2009, 07:21 AM	#3
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	From Sierra's Exterior Ballistics. When we stop to consider the vigorous (read, downright violent) chambering cycle a loaded round endures in a Service Rifle, it becomes pretty clear it suffers abuse that would never happen in a bolt-action. This is simply the nature of the beast. It needs to be dealt with since there is no way around it. There are two distinctly different forces that need to be considered: those that force the bullet deeper into the case, and those that pull it out of the case. When the round is stripped from the magazine and launched up the feed ramp, any resistance encountered by the bullet risks having it set back deeper into the case. Due to the abrupt stop the cartridge makes when the shoulder slams to a halt against the chamber, inertia dictates that the bullet will continue to move forward. This is exactly the same principle a kinetic bullet puller operates on, and it works within a chamber as well. To counteract this tendency, the semi-auto shooter is left with basically two options: applying a crimp or increasing neck tension. Lee offers their “Factory Crimp” die as an alternative, which seems to be one of the better options for those bullets without a cannelure.

June 9, 2009, 07:45 AM	#4
wingman Senior Member Join Date: August 20, 2002 Posts: 2,108	I've done "some" experimenting with the lee crimp die in 223(I use it for all pistol rounds)with a bolt action 223 and find so far it does harm accuracy but very slight difference at 100 yards, non-crimp 1/2inch but crimped rounds will open up to 1 inch, may just be with my rifle or other factors but at this point I won't crimp when shooting for tight groups.

June 11, 2009, 12:32 PM	#7
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	Like most hipower competitors (although I'm not one), I don't crimp .223 rounds for either my bolt rifles or ARs. Can't tell from some of the posts if some of you guys know the difference between Lee's FCD for handguns and rifles. They work entirely differently. The rifle FCD imparts a crimp, using a collet and a mandrel. The handgun FCD imparts either a roll crimp or modified taper crimp, depending on the caliber, and post-sizes with a carbide sizing ring @ the base of the die. There's not enough recoil in a .223 to cause movement of the bullet during firing, unless the neck tension is way too loose.

June 12, 2009, 08:37 AM	#8
Slamfire Senior Member Join Date: May 27, 2007 Posts: 5,261	I crimp the heck out of lead bullets for pistol ammo. Perfect score for Bullseye rapid fire is a group within 2 inches at 25 yards. Most people consider a rifle that does not shoot within 2 inches at 100 yards to be inaccurate. I have been shooting M1a's, Garands, AR's, FAL's, recently PTR91, and none of those rifles needs crimped bullets. Neck tension is sufficient. When using my kinetic bullet puller, it is in fact, difficult to get a .223 bullet out of the case neck. No serious Long Range or Highpower competitor, and I have been squadded with the best, uses a crimp die on their ammo. None, Nada, Zero, Zilch. If there was the slightest, the tiny tinest advantage to using a crimp die, everyone would be using it. The Lee rifle factory crimp die will damage rifle bullets. And you cannot tell until you pull the bullet. These are 6.5 SMK damaged by overcrimping with a Lee factory crimp die. I am not spending 25 or 30 cents a match bullet only to swage them out of shape with a Lee Factory crimp die.

June 12, 2009, 12:13 PM	#9
PCJim Senior Member Join Date: July 11, 2008 Location: FL Posts: 570	I use the FCD for 9mm and 45acp with good results. I purchased one for .223 and gave it a try. I did not notice any better grouping on the one test that I performed. I did not try any further tests as I did not like the creases the FCD was putting on the case mouth. I figured it was overworking the mouth and the brass would end up having a shorter life.

July 30, 2009, 02:26 PM	#10
HK_USP_45 Junior Member Join Date: July 19, 2009 Posts: 10	There are several posts stating that crimping isn't necessary on .223 because of the low recoil. I'm new to reloading so I don't have a lot of real world experience, but after reading some of the manuals and info available, I thought that one of the primary reasons for crimping is that when shooting semi-autos, the rapid loading of rounds into the chamber can force the bullet into the case. I know with tube magazines and with magnum cartridges crimping can also be important.

July 30, 2009, 06:53 PM	#12
QBall45 Senior Member Join Date: April 5, 2008 Location: South Central Minnesota Posts: 584	FCD, I use it on all my 45 ACP and 223. I figure that since the ammo mfgr's use LEE's FCD that this was what I wanted to use to crimp my loads. Have yet to have ant problems with decreased case life. Got some 223 with more than 6 reloads on em.

July 30, 2009, 10:45 PM	#14
Sidewinder72 Senior Member Join Date: November 25, 2008 Location: Kansas Posts: 130	I have a factory crimp die for 45acp and 9mm. I love them both. I tested with taper crimp first and then the factory crimp die. I do not see any differance in accuracy. I can not tell you about the 223

August 3, 2009, 09:42 PM	#16
David Wile Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2001 Location: Mechanicsburg, PA Posts: 585	Hey folks, Slamfire's post is quite correct. The Lee Factory Crimp Die is a solution looking for a problem. The main reason for its existance is to make Lee more money by convincing folks they need one. Best wishes, Dave Wile

August 4, 2009, 07:43 AM	#19
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	The FCD is a crutch for people to get in their mind they can produce poor quality ammunition in hopes that some magic $9 die will solve all their problems. If people simply learned how to load ammunition properly, they wouldn't have the problems with their ammunition that they do. I was a believer in the FCD when I first started handloading. Then I wised up and found out it's not and never is the "right answer".

August 4, 2009, 07:56 AM	#20
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	The FCD:barf: is the ShamWow:barf: of reloading.

August 4, 2009, 02:40 PM	#22
freakshow10mm Junior member Join Date: January 23, 2008 Location: MI Posts: 1,398	There's a bit of smoke and mirrors about that statement on Lee's site. The manufacturers they are talking about are not guys with automated machines. They are hand operated progressive presses. Once you get into automated equipment, your standard 7/8-14 tpi dies go bye-bye. Trust me.

August 4, 2009, 04:03 PM	#23
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	The munitions manufacture's were crimping cartridges long before richard lee was out of diapers. Much of lee's tooling was gleaned from others, cheapened and put on the market to sell to unsuspecting first time reloaders.

August 4, 2009, 04:58 PM	#24
Edward429451 Junior member Join Date: November 12, 2000 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado Posts: 9,494	Where's the black eye smiley what is Lee's trademark lol! It's a durn shame when one has to come to people for the truth instead of the manufacturer. Good thing TFL is here for that reason.