Cross Training

[crobrun]

Hey all. Some of you have trained in different Martial arts. I am presently training in Aikido-love the art, but do not think it is the end all of self defense. I have found a place that teaches Muay thai, as well as other arts, and I am interested in training here. My question is, how did you train in multiple arts. Did you quit one when you started the other, or continue both? thanks for your response(s)

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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals

[Zensho]

Cross training is a great approach to becoming a well rounded fighter in general. There are things in almost every art that are useful. A pretty good fighter told me once that it is much better to really nail a few varied basic skills than master a whole specialized form. This approach is what Ive tried to use for my development since belts and rank are inconsequential to me, my interest lies in training to succeed in a real fight. Muay thai and Aikido both have some great tools in the arsenal, as does good old Western Boxing, JKD, Jiu Jitsu and The Philipino styles. Have fun.

[stdalire]

crobrun:

You can cross training to any martial arts as they are almost the same in the basic of hands and feet movements, as well as to the stances.

Now, that you are learning Aikido which mostly on taking advantage of opponents force thru circular motions, you would better study in the use of sticks or nunchaku. You can also study the use of samurai if you have a good instructor.

On the time you are praticing on your own, don't mix the martial arts but practice in sequence with alloted time to each style. One hour Aikido training, 1 hour for any martials arts you cross train etc.

And when you have graduated of any belt from those martial arts you studied, try to examine all what you've learned if they are practical to use or effective.

For instance, the karate instructor taught you to x-block an incoming knife thrust, don't use that if you are not that expert to do it as it will cut your arms.

Your aikido style of removing knifes from the attacker won't work if you use in twisting the wrist by pressing above the index and ring fingers. For if you do this to a strong man it is not effective.

That is all I can advise.


1st Dan Black Belt
ARJUKEN (Arnis, Judo, Kendo)
Under Ernesto Presas (Brother of Remy Presas)



[This message has been edited by stdalire (edited March 11, 2000).]

[Covert Mission]

Anyone know anything about Wing Tsun (Wing Chun?) I am moving to MT, and there is a Wing Tsun Sifu there who learned from the last disciple of the legendary Yip Man.

I have studied Jujutsu (past tense, unfortunately), and would like to resume my martial arts. I gather from some reading that Wing Tsun is a soft style, and incorporates some of the philosophy that attracted me to Jujutsu. Thanks

[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited March 14, 2000).]

[Skorzeny]

Here are my recommendations:

Striking - Western boxing and Muay Thai
Trapping - Jeet Kune Do (maybe Wing Chun) and Japanese Jujutsu
Grappling - Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Shooto (aka Shoot wrestling), Sambo and Judo
Weapons (knife and stick) - Arnis (aka Kali or Escrima)

If time and energy are limited, I'd choose one grappling art and one striking art OR one grappling art and one weapons art.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[crobrun]

Skorzeny
This place is advertized as a muay thai place, but he seems ( from the first lesson) to be teaching boxing ( from the hand positions ), with muay thai kicks and elbows. He also mentioned throwing in BJJ, some savate, and escrima/arnis ( not sure which). He appears to have a solid background and some successful students (locally). I do think I can learn alot here - My first lesson was humbling and funny ( think hippo in boxing stance ). Any thing you can suggest I look for to make sure he is as good as he seems? Thanks

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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals

[Skorzeny]

Croburn:

Instructors who incorporate boxing and Muay Thai are excellent. Having said that, if I were really interested in quality Muay Thai instruction, I'd go with someone who competes or trains competitors in Muay Thai events. Those guys are the real deal.

For Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I'd make sure the guy is certified to teach and/or has "lineage" from recognized big-name instructors. There are too many frauds nowadays who parade around as "grappling" or BJJ instructors with little bits of knowledge. In my town, there is a self-proclaimed "Self-Defense and Fitness Instructor" at the local university. Even though he calls himself "the Head Instructor" and weighs more than I do, I was able to submit him under a minute with a comically simple technique. Considering how much training I have, that guy is obviously a fraud.

It amazes me that he still advertises his classes and legions of new students (particularly young females) continue to show up to learn "real hard core self-defense." It's funny, actually, because he tries to teach them how to do a flying armbar the first class! The guy, himself, does not know how to do an armbar correctly, let alone a flying armbar (minds you, he never demonstrates this technique, he simply instructs others to do it).

Ever since our last encounter, he avoids me like a plague (or for that matter, anyone with any amount of legitimate training). He even declined to spar with my wife who weighs half as much as he does.

Sorry about the digression. My point is that you really should make sure that your potential instructor is legitimate before you make the mental and monetary commitment to train there. There are too many guys with a little training here and a little training there and pretend to be the "well-rounded" martial arts masters.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[crobrun]

Skorzeny
He has alot of articles on his amature record and the record of some of his students. He also has plaques from the Gracies and some autographed photos from the like. I have no way of telling if the certificates are genuine. He seems nice as a teacher ( ie, tried to help me with strikes, not just simply leaving me to my own devices), and competent in his art(s)...but then again, my background is in Aikido, so I may not be a judge of practical Martial arts. I'll probably train in his school. If you are ever in the NC area, I'll invite you to test him Thanks for your advice ... all of you!

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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals

[Covert Mission]

Skorz...

I appreciate your recommendations with one exception:

I am somewhat skeptical of Gracie Jujutsu. Sure, I've seen the Ultimate Fighting Challenge. So? I've seen the Gracie dojos spring up (and some of the real Gracies are here in LA). I have yet to see a Gracie or one of their disciple go up against a traditional Japanese-style Jujutsu master. I'm betraying my bias, as that is my background (albeit limited). I do know what some of these masters can do, and i think the Gracie stylist would be TOAST. All they seem to want to do is go to the ground and choke their opponent out. Very limited repertoire, compared to the diversity of something like Hakkoryu or Yo****sune Jujutsu. imvho

PS: can anyone tell me more about Wing Tsun, and compare it to similar styles from other countries? thx

[Skorzeny]

Croburn:

What is the name of your new instructor? Perhaps I can check him out "remotely."

Covert Mission:

Your misunderstanding (based on watching the Ultimate Fighting Championships) is understandable. Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu certainly emphasizes the ground element (much like water, they say) to counter the weight or strength advantage (or striking advantage) one's opponents may have. In the earlier UFCs, most opponents of the Gracies were stand-up strikers. Hence, following the principle of fighting where you are strong and your opponent is weak, the Gracies took every fight to the ground.

The question of Gracie/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu versus Japanese Jujutsu has been settled a long time ago (even before the advent of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu). Now, what the heck do I mean by that?

You may recall that at one time (at the turn of the 18th Century), there were dozens, perhaps, hundreds of different Ryu's of Jujutsu in Japan. Some were purely striking arts, some were purely throwing arts and some combined the two. Only a handful dealt with Ne-Waza (ground grappling).

Now, because many of these technques, whether striking or throwing (or stand-up joint-locks), were "dangerous" in the sense that they caused serious injuries, most Ryu's of Jujutsu practiced their techniques in a cooperative fashion (as many Japanese Ryu's of Jujutsu and Aikido still do). For example, my partner/opponent grabs my lapel, I grab his wrist, he lunges forward and I then do a Kotegaeshi. It was hoped that through repeated practice, one may be able to reflexively do these techniques on an opponent "for real." There were also literally hundreds of different variations of techniques depending on every imaginable circumstances, which were taught as the instructors "felt like it" each day.

Enter Kano Jigoro. Kano was a respected educator. He was very strongly influenced by a Harvard professor in Japan who urged the Japanese educators to fuse Western scientific methods with native Japanese culture to produce a stronger and more beautiful Japanese culture. Kano had been trained in a number of different Ryu's of Jujutsu. He sought to infuse the spirit of scientific methodology and understanding to otherwise arcane and "artistic" Jujutsu. He studied the principles of techniques, balance and leverage found in Jujutsu. He founded Kano-Ryu Jujutsu, which then became Kodokan Judo. He also reduced the number of techniques found in Jujutsu for two reasons. First, he discarded "dangerous" techniques (meaning techniques which could not be applied in a measured "scalable" way) so that his pupils could practice with full force and yet not hurt each other. Second, he realized that practicing hundreds of techniques only a few times each was counter-productive and useless.

So, Kano adapted (some say created) the principle of Randori - free sparring, because he realized that, while techniques learned through static, cooperative practice may work against unskilled opponents, they were difficult to execute against skilled opponents who moved unpredictably and dynamically to avoid such "set-piece" attacks. Also, he instructed his pupil to practice a handful of "proven" techniques repeatedly, so that they would be greatly adept at them.

During the 19th Century, there were a number of contests (the UFC of the day) held in Japan to select the most effective martial art for the police forces that were then being modernized. During these contests, Kano's Judoka practically demolished every Jujutsu Ryu that cared to fight against it. So, Judo reigned supreme for some years until it ran into a rather unique system. The name is rolling off my tongue right now (Kito-Ryu?), but the practitioners of this system, realizing that they could not exchange strikes or throws with the superior Judoka, simple grabbed their opponents and fell to the ground where, with their superior ground skills, defeated the Judoka. So, realizing a deficiency in his Judo, Kano recruited these men into his system. By this time, Kodokan was virtually the martial arts HQ of Japan. Kano had invited Shotokan and Aiki-Jujutsu masters to his school and train his students. Kano's Judo became almost "perfect" - with atemi-waza (striking), nage-waza (trapping and throwing) and ne-waza (ground grappling), all practiced dynamically through sparring. This Judo, by the way, was a vastly different Judo than is practiced in Olympic or sports Judo of today.

It was about this time that a Kodokan Judo/Kano Jiu-Jitsu master, Maeda, settled in Brazil and taught the Gracies. Gracies, in return, further refined this system by combining it with boxing and other arts (such as catch wrestling) to make it more street effective, particularly for the small men that they were. They did this for seventy years, engaging in constant street fights and challenge matches. In the 1980s, one of the sons of the Gracies, Rorion Gracie, brought the art to this country and the rest is history. No other "pure" system whether from Japan, Europe, the rest of Asia or the US could defeat it. Gradually, martial artists took two paths. Some, like Jeet Kune Do (US), Shooto, combat wrestling and Wa-Jutsu (Japan) incorporated this style of fighting into their own. Others (Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, Aikido, and ad naseum) took the approach of "burying their heads in the sand and pretending like they never saw it."

On the contrary, BJJ continues to grow. ten years ago, armbars and chokes were the techniques of choice, but more and more we see a variety of leglocks being used in BJJ (influence of Sambo and catch-wrestling). In fact, heel-hook is my absolute favorite technique.

Parenthetically, In Japan, martial arts were banned during the American occupation and Judo was only revived as a "sport" rather than a martial art. To further gain acceptance to the Olympics, it turned itself into jacket wrestling. Kano, before his death, observed a "modern" Judo match and remarked "This is not my Judo, this will be the death of Kodokan Judo." Older Judo masters, upon observing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, remarked that it was very similar to the "rough and tumble" Kodokan Judo of pre-World War II (when Judo reigned supreme).

Even in Japan, BJJ style of fighting is extremely popular. In fact, the Gracies are held in awe and respect there. Rickson Gracies has fought in Japan a number of times, getting paid $800,000 for one fight (a staggering sum in martial arts contests unlike, say, boxing). Many professional Japanese fighters have adapted and incorporated this art into their own and some of them have become quite good at it (like Sakuraba Kazushi, often considered by many to be one of the two best middleweight fighters in the world, the other being Frank Shamrock).

So, to answer your question, "traditional" Japanese Jujutsu was long ago defeated by Kodokan Judo (pre-WWII), which in Brazil evolved into Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. There is a reason that the Japanese Jujutsu died out - it was ineffective unless one put decades of training into it (like Ueshiba Morihei did) and it was less suited for the modern world (where defense against swords or defending against attacks while sitting on knees are not particularly useful). Japanese Jujutsu (particularly Daito-Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu) has had something of a revival because of Aikido.

Personally, I think that both Aikido and some Ryu's of Jujutsu are fun to look at and aesthetically beautiful to practice and observe. I myself practiced Aikikai Aikido for some time. However, I know a number of Aikidoka and Japanese Jujutsuka (several of them Yudansha) who know 100s of techniques and yet could not do a single one against me in a real fight (or know how to deal with a real punch). At the same time, while I have a "limited reportoire" of techniques, I can get a straight armbar (juji-gatame) or a heel-hook, a single technique, from virtually any position you can think of. Why? Because 1) I practice a handful of proven techniques full-force in every conceivable position possible and 2) I am taught the principles behind the bio-mechanics of these techniques that even if I run into a position that I've never encountered, I can "figure them out" in no order. It's a difference between being taught a very large multiplication chart (Japanese Jujutsu) as opposed to being taught the principles of multiplication and then being forced to do "live" examples repeatedly (BJJ). Who is going to be better at math (real fighting)?

Ving Tsun or Wing Chun is a southern Chinese martial art that is mostly strongly identified with Hong Kong. Bruce Lee studied it as his "base" art (but then supplanted most of its striking elements with those from boxing). Its attack and defense are based on a centerline. So unlike kickboxers or TKD folks, they don't fight "sideways." They fight more or less frontally. It's a decent striking and trapping art, but not one that is highly effective in real fights. The reason is that most people crash through the "trapping zone" into the clinch and the grappling zone or they stay out in the kicking and punching zones/ranges.

If you are interested in Wing Chun style of MA, I'd recommend you to check out Jeet Kune Do instead.

Sorry about the long post, but I thought that I would not do justice to the topic unless I explained myself fully.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[Spectre]

...there were dozens, perhaps, hundreds
of different Ryu's of Jujutsu in Japan. Some were purely striking arts...

As I understand it, while there were definitely hundreds of bujutsu schools, all jujutsu schools are grappling schools, regardless of whether other methods are incorporated.

(From Encarta learning zone
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ju (Japanese for "gentle or soft") indicates a yielding to the energy
produced by the opponent's attack, and jutsu (Japanese for "art") refers to the use of that energy against the opponent.[/quote]

[crobrun]

skorzeny
Scott Francis http://yp.bellsouth.com/sites/martialarts/
If you can "check" him out - Thanks. If not - still thanks. You have been very helpful in steering me toward a more practical MA, and I'm very greatful. I'm hoping this school will be good, and I'm still recovering from the class (thought my abs were in ok shape - HA!). I plan on joining this guy's school unless it turns out he's not what he appears to be. I rather enjoyed the class. Thanks again -

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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals

[Covert Mission]

I thanked Skorzeny via e-mail for the above post, which is incredibly thorough and well-reasoned, and a nice brief history to boot. I also apologized for my uninformed bias against Brazilian Jujutsu, based not on experience, but more on the bias imparted on me by my (ex) Sensei (who is very good,who i respect, but like everyone, has biases).

I would love to have the time to just train, both martial arts and firearms, master something (!), and eventually teach. Maybe someday.

PS: I spent time last night doing internet searches, and reading from Gracie websites on BJJ. The #1 Gracie fighter (he's one of those "R" names...Rorian, Rorling, Royce, Roylion ...Rickson, yeah, that's it!)) sounds incredibly tough. some call him the toughest fighter in the world, and he's not the one who's won all the UFC championships. No small praise. www.gracie.com is a good place to read family and BJJ history, and see links to Gracie family members' sites.



[This message has been edited by Covert Mission (edited March 16, 2000).]

[Skorzeny]

Spectre:

There were, at minimum, dozens of Jujutsu schools during the time period I mentioned. It's hard to say how many, but it is possible that there were hundreds.

Most Jujutsu styles were actually both striking and trapping/throwing arts. A handful were specialists in ground grappling. Some were striking arts based on Chinese striking styles (Kempo in Japan).

You have to understand that the word "Jujutsu" like the word "Yawara" was used during various periods to refer generically to a "martial art." So, a number of them were purely striking arts with a sprinkle of throws mixed in. As I wrote before, a vast majority of them were NOT ground grappling arts.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[Skorzeny]

Croburn:

The guy seems like a legitimate kickboxing/Muay Thai instructor. That's the good part.

The "bad" part is that he doesn not seem to have any credentials in other art (like BJJ or Kali) beyond knowing a few things. This is simply an observation from the limited information I have.

If you are interested in training in kickboxing and Muay Thai alone, it may be a good place. However, I seriously doubt that you will learn BJJ or Kali there.

It depends on what you are looking for. You can always learn Muay Thai there and learn BJJ, Sambo, Arnis/Escrima/Kali at another place or at a later time.

Skorzeny


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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu

[Spectre]

Skorzeny,

I understand what you're saying, but I understood that -jutsu indicates this is a combat art. Bujutsu to indicate any form of combat art, while jujutsu would indicate a grappling art, whether "grounded" or not.

[This message has been edited by Spectre (edited March 16, 2000).]

[crobrun]

Skorzeny
Sir - I am in your debt.

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Rob
From the Committee to Use Proffesional Politicians as Lab Animals

[Skorzeny]

Spectre:

We, in the West, often translate the word -jutsu as "art," but in reality, it really should be translated as "technique" or better yet a "system" (a collection of techniques).

Bujutsu is indeed "martial," "military" or "fighting" system. Jujutsu (should really be transliterated "Juujutsu") means "supple" or "flexible" system. It does not really mean "soft" or "gentle" as some translate.

Again, you seem to be obsessive about the literal meaning of the words. But in practice and historically, various systems of Jujutsu (also called Yawara) included striking, throwing and grappling arts. Of these, throwing arts predominated.

Crobrun:

You are quite welcome. Good training to you and good luck.

Skorzeny

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For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence. Sun Tzu