All metal reliability

[ritepath]

I'd never fully trust a pistol with SPRINGS in it.


So there.

[Dashunde]

Tipoc, we can agree to disagree.

My own experience with 1911's and others tells me that all-metal guns need more attention to the amount and type of lubricate used.

How many times have we heard around here that a particular gun likes to run "wet" or "dry"? It's usually referring to a all-metal gun.

The problem is not on the recoil stroke, its on the return stroke where you only have the recoil spring pressure to return it to battery, if its gummed up that stroke can easily be impeded, made worse by every linear inch of additional frame-to-slide contact that the spring has to overcome.

The four little metal tabs in most polys act as scrapers that clean out their own grove in the slide and they allow for the crud to fall out.

I'm not agreeing with the general concept that all-metals are not as reliable as poly's...
I'm saying the longer the frame-to-slide contact area is the more effect excess dirt or lack of lubricant can have.

[jetinteriorguy]

I'm just curious which handguns don't have springs?

[44 AMP]

he would never fully trust an all metal firearm for his home defense gun. He said with metal on metal everything has to be running perfectly, lubed perfectly, cleaned perfectly etc or else the possibility of failure is dramatically increased.

Taking another look at this statement....wow, still boggles my mind.

Based on this, the speaker is both lazy, ill informed, and apparently does not trust ANY rifle or shotgun (they are all steel too, the functional parts, anyway).

I say lazy because he is making a blanket statement, which is only a partial truth. Ill informed, because of the same blanket statement of partial truth. And, I'm inferring he doesn't trust rifles & shotguns, because of the same, blanket statement (he said "firearm", which covers everything).

If his statement was amended to include the qualifier "that no one has done proper maintenance on..", it would be closer to the truth.

I wouldn't blindly trust any firearm for HD that no one does proper maint, on. Tis a fact of life, some maintenance must be maintained, or the machine will not run right. Always has been. Even the combat Tupperware class of pistols require some care, and the fact that it may be significantly less than an all metal gun is a matter of degree, nothing else.

All metal guns need some degree of care (cleaning, lubing, etc.) but it doesn't have to be "perfect" for things to work. It just has to be good enough, and there a WIDE range of what will be good enough.

It is true that if you don't take the proper care of things, the possibility of failure is "dramatically increased". WHAT in life is an exception to this? I can't think of anything right now...

Please don't bother to explain how the polymer pistols are better, because they need less care, etc. That's not the point. The point, as I see it is essentially, an instructor, telling students he doesn't trust "all metal guns" because they need some kind of care. Because the guns and the care has to be "perfect" or the risk of failure is dramatically increased...

I realize that we have only the OP's word on it, and the instructor's statement might be out of context. IF he said that, and followed it with "and this is how you prevent that" giving correct instruction on the maintenance needed for "all metal", guns, I would have less of a problem with the statement, but only less..

As a stand alone statement, of opinion, it's valid enough, after all, opinion can be anything, right, or wrong. As an accurate statement of fact, it has more holes in it than one of my targets, on a good range day!

I'm just curious which handguns don't have springs?

Its a joke. It would have been clearer with something like this , added.

[jetinteriorguy]

My question was meant to be facetious to further the humor, guess I didnt convey it very well.

[Sevens]

The instructor doesn't necessarily have to be a bad instructor when it comes to his methods of teaching the hands-on and quite a lot depends on exactly what kind of "course" you paid for and how much it cost.

The quote attributed to him does not play well when delivered to a group of hobbyists and hardcore gun folks, but it may make him look "smarter" to a group of brand new shooters.

It does appear obvious that he would be far better served to keep his mouth closed when he is not operating in an area of expertise -- eventually, he'll learn this or he'll embarrass himself and eventually quit the "training" game.

To simply take one snippet we are hearing second hand and quickly deduce that nobody should take his training isn't exactly helpful. If the guy is simply "teaching" the state required minimum for a carry license and his price is low and this is the most painful part of it, there is a use for him in the market.

[tipoc]

My own experience with 1911's and others tells me that all-metal guns need more attention to the amount and type of lubricate used.

How many times have we heard around here that a particular gun likes to run "wet" or "dry"? It's usually referring to a all-metal gun.

We can agree to disagree Dashunde but some things are easily verified.

The point of lubrication, whether oil or grease, is to reduce the amount of friction between two moving parts. It also helps any dirt to migrate away from the areas of contact. But there is only, always, a very limited amount of space between the two moving parts.

Once the two working surfaces are coated in lube there is no more room for additional lube. The surplus is thrown off or runs off down the frame or coats the interior and exterior of the gun where it serves no purpose. So whether a gun is "run wet" or dry makes no difference to the operation of the gun as the extra lube migrates to places where it isn't needed and doesn't work it's way back. As long as the two surfaces have a thin coat of lube on them no more is needed or can be fit in. Those who like their guns to "run wet" are really looking to ensure that all critical areas that need lube are rapidly covered in that lube. But once covered the surplus lube runs off and serves no role. It only takes a minute or two to verify this for yourself. It's as true of guns as any other tool or device from waffle irons to motors.

The all metal gun usually does not require much more than an extra bit of lube than a poly framed gun. If any extra at all. Certainly not between the slide and frame.

The motion of the slide further forces excess dirt and grime out from between the frame and slide on both poly guns and steel guns. This also is easily observed first hand and we don't need to speculate on it. If anything the possibility of some bit of trash being embedded in the frame is greater with polymer framed guns. Though if this happens it is so rare and of little consequence as to be little commented on.

tipoc

[jmohme]

I have had both metal and polymer framed guns and can't say that I have had any reliability issues with either kind.

Guns are like anything mechanical. Keep them properly maintained and most all of them will serve you well. Neglect them and either will let you down.

[dakota1911]

Find another instructor.

[carguychris]

Apparently NOBODY has noticed the irony that we have now come full circle - we have encountered the exact opposite of the proverbial bazillion online threads (and gun rag letters and editorials, and LGS counter chit-chat) about how metal is the ONLY right and proper frame material, because polymer frames will SURELY all eventually dry-rot / melt / crack / break / warp / dissolve / run away / spontaneously combust / be eaten by special bacteria genetically modified by devious left-wingers?

[Targa]

Where do these guys come from?!?!..lol

[tipoc]

Carguychris may be on to something. I've read on forums lately all the regular incorrect "knowledge" about metal guns being more finicky, needing more lube, requiring more attention, etc. More recently it's been warnings about rust. Your Sig P226 or S&W J frame will tend to rust if not cared for, lubed and stripped to a rigorous schedule.

I read a fella advise another to get a striker fired polymer gun because then he wouldn't have to worry about his gun rusting and jamming at a critical moment in a defensive confrontation. Apparently all the Gen 3 S&W's and Beretta 92's cops out here carry are rusted up tight in their holsters.

tipoc

[ritepath]

I'd never trust a vehicle with a metal engine and pistons.

[jr24]

You've all got it wrong. I only trust porcelain guns... a la Die Hard 2.

"Luggage? That punk pulled a Glock 7 on me. You know what that is? It's a porcelain gun made in Germany. It doesn't show up on your airport X-ray machines here and it costs more than what you make in a month!"
―John McClane on the Glock 7.

[skizzums]

you can polymerize monomers all day or trust you life with whatever element you want on the left side of the periodic table, but I will only trust a gun, a SELF-DEFENSE gun at that, to hyperdiamond or maybe "carbonado" if I am feeling lucky. if it isn't above 9.5 on the moh's scale, might as well throw it in the trash......

[tdgator]

He was referencing my 1911 when he said it, basically saying similar things in previous posts that if it is not maintained to perfect standards it can be a problem, where in his opinion, if you just let a glock or M&P sit neglected it will still work. He also seemed to think you can beat up a polymer gun a lot more than an all metal. He was a big tactical guy and liked getting dirty. We were on the ground in different scenarios so I can assume that is what he meant.

[Dashunde]

It would have been helpful in the beginning to know he was referring to your 1911 and you were also considering replacing it with a CZ... the thread would have gone differently I think.

The contentious blanket statement that all-metal is less reliable wont fly here and simply isnt correct.
Are all-metal weapons less tolerant of poor maintenance? Perhaps... depends on the particular model I suppose.

Folks around here despise generalizations, and will often (annoyingly) ask for "evidence", or use words like "empirical" or "anecdotal" as if this were a court instead of a enthusiast discussion forum.
Of course, we also despise the spreading of misinformation of which we have no shortage.

With that said and knowing that a DW Valor 1911 is at the top of my wishlist... I agree with him to some extent as you've paraphrased his comments above.
I've never owned a 100% reliable 1911 (I've had a few), but so far I have owned 3 100% reliable Glocks with higher round counts.

One 1911 in particular would act up if it had too much lube, it would start acting right mid-way through the first box of ammo then start acting up again around 200 rounds when it got dirty (stove-pipes). This trend repeated many times over the years and was predictable.
On the other hand, my all-metal CZ75 was 100% and as far as I know so is my brother's CZ that has many more rounds through it.

So what have I personally gleend from all that?
1911's can be finicky, but of course there are some good ones. Lube can make a difference with them.
Glocks don't tend to be finicky, but of course there are some bad ones. They seem unphased by lube or lack of it, except for wear.
I rarely hear about a troublesome CZ, but I dont hang out at the CZ forum either. I kept mine clean/wet, my brothers is always dirty...
I really like 1911's, but would not allow one into my nightstand without many many proving rounds through it, and even then..?

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by ritepath

I'd never trust a vehicle with a metal engine and pistons.

I have a car with a plastic valve cover, intake manifold, and throttle body...

[JeffK]

The advantages of the poly guns is that their rail contacts are usually short/small... like Glocks four little tabs.
If there is crud in the rails it only drags on the small contact areas instead of along the entire length of the rails.

If there is "crud" along the rails, it would be more of a problem with the little tabs than with a full-length rail. There would now be four times as many opportunities for something to catch on an edge. However I've never heard of any evidence of a problem like this in either case, and if there were such a problem then a simple design change would be to give all-metal guns little tabs too.

[44 AMP]

I've never owned a 100% reliable 1911 (I've had a few), but so far I have owned 3 100% reliable Glocks with higher round counts.

realizing, of course, that this is only anecdotal, but I have owned a 100% reliable 1911A1 (Colt Govt Model) and I have had a GLock JAM on me at the range!!!



the other side of the coin has value too, and also spends just the same...

in other words, no matter what (within reason) you are talking about, somebody has had it work, and somebody has had it fail.

One thing I have seen happen often (or at least often on the Internet) is people buying new, high dollar guns, and then running them on cheap crap ammo, complaining about how the GUN has failed....

[tipoc]

Someone oughta build a Glock out of steel and make it reliable. I think this would be fun to watch.

A number of folks seem to believe that reliability lies in a striker and polymer and that a gun composed of these holy objects can do no wrong and is ultra reliable. A totem or fetish in which the mystical power of "reliability" resides.

"My father's house has many rooms. Room 43, 17, 23, 20, 19 and many more, different calibers and strikers on every door."

So I think a Glock in carbon steel should be built. Just to see what happens...

Also there are many more polymer guns in that last 20 years than just Glock.

tipoc

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by tipoc

Someone oughta build a Glock out of steel and make it reliable. I think this would be fun to watch.

They're available -- in both stainless steel and aluminum alloy. Do a Google search on "metal-framed Glocks" and you'll find a few. Including one by Robar. (There are videos of the gun, many gun mag evaluations of the gun, but I can't find it on their web site.) They were available about 6-7 years ago, and some sites offered them, but seem to no longer carry them.

One of the firms that still seems to be in business -- CCF RaceFramesLLC -- makes the following points about their frames and after-market parts makers:

First – it’s important to keep in mind that a Glock® is designed and built to extremely loose tolerances as it’s primarily a battle gun, and those loose tolerances are necessary for reliability in hostile environments. Combining those loose tolerances with a flexible plastic frame, a Glock® will run with a wide range of dimensionally out of spec aftermarket components – even when those components are destructive to the pistol. Because of the frame’s flex, the destructive forces are lessened somewhat, but destructive forces are exactly that, destructive. They will simply take longer to demonstrate themselves in the way of a failure, sometimes catastrophic.

We have found the aftermarket component tolerances span an alarming range, even from the same manufacturer. Because of the Glock’s® loose tolerance design and it’s ability to run or appear to run fine with any number of dimensionally wide ranging components, aftermarket manufacturers have not had to discipline their components build quality to the dimensional tolerances the CCF RaceFrame® requires.

Here's a link to the CCF site:http://www.ccfraceframes.com/faq.php

I think I'd love to have an alloy-framed Glock, with one of the better trigger systems, etc. I suspect, however, it would take a bigger budget than I'm likely to spend on a handgun...

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by tdgator

Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

I doubt I have much really to add beyond what has already been said, but here does anyway.

There are all-metal firearms that are 150 years old that still shoot. How many stories have you seen or heard about people finding old 1911s in barns or attics, or even digging them up out the dirt, cleaning them up and they shoot? Could a polymer gun do that? Maybe. But ...

have you ever seen a 1911 warp from direct exposure to strong sunlight?

"Polymer" sounds all nice and high-tech, but basically "polymer" means "plastic." And, pretty much by definition, all plastics rely on various compounds called "plasticizers" to create their physical properties. Some more than others, all plasticizers are volatile, which is why cheaper plastic stuff becomes brittle and falls apart after a year or two. Polymer firearms bodies are (hopefully) a little better than that, but I expect that a hundred years from now you'll still be able to pick up a genuine WW1 M1911 and shoot it (not that I recommend doing so to a collector's item). I don't expect to see many 100-year old Glocks that can be safely shot.

Originally Posted by Sevens

To simply take one snippet we are hearing second hand and quickly deduce that nobody should take his training isn't exactly helpful. If the guy is simply "teaching" the state required minimum for a carry license and his price is low and this is the most painful part of it, there is a use for him in the market.

I respectfully disagree. There is NEVER a use for someone who conveys incorrect information -- especially incorrect information that has life-or-death consequences.

[tipoc]

Thanks for the link Walt. I was being facetious in my post on this above, but your post does raise some things to think on.

tipoc

[AKexpat]

Why isn't there an icon for "kicking a dead horse"? .........