.40 cal on the way out?

[zombietactics]

... Uh, yes. Yes it does.

I'm genuinely not trying to be obstinate or insulting, but ...

No, it doesn't, and this has been validated by dozens of clinical examinations, in cases where the rounds are recovered. You are mistaking the difference between a potential effect (based upon the diameter of the projectile) vs. the actual effect on living tissue (which stretches quite a bit)

In many cases the the diameter of the wound channel is actually smaller than the diameter of the round ... because living tissue stretches. It's very much the case that two projectiles with different diameters create holes the same size ... as the tissue stretches out, deforms, and then returns to the same sized "hole" or wound. In order to produce different-sized wound channels the tissue needs to be stretched to a significantly larger size - to the point of causing a larger failure (tearing, etc.) of connective tissue.

This can be demonstrated in about 10 minutes in a lab on living things, as gruesome as that may sound.

Alternately, you can do an experiment yourself which makes the point by analogy, assuming you aren't squeamish. Get a 14g needle and a 18g needle and poke yourself in the arm with both. The diameter of the needles are different, but not enough for one to cause a bigger wound than the other. You'll even get identically-sized blood droplets on your arms. If you do the same test with a 18g and a 10g needle ... you'll see a difference, as the "delta" in diameter is great enough to cause more failure of tissue and ergo a larger hole.

It works the same way with handgun bullets. There isn't enough difference in diameter to cause the tissue to stretch and fail outside of a given range.

You'd get different results with paper, cardboard, wood, etc. ... any medium which does not stretch when penetrated. You can clearly see a difference between 9mm, .40S&W and .45ACP ... as they make neat (non stretching) holes in those media.

For all the valid arguments against the .40, this one is simply denying fact. .40 is bigger than .35 the same way .45 is bigger than .40. Flat out. Simply.

It's not denying any demonstrable fact regarding the effects on living tissue. You're simply confusing the potential with the actual.

You cannot simply take note of the "thing doing the wounding" without reference to the mechanism by which the wound is created, and the effects on "the thing being wounded".

Don't be stubborn. This is well-known science.

It's more of a difference than that number indicates. The amount of tissue damage is a function of the area of the leading edge of the bullet, which is Pi * R(squared). Since it's squared, the effect is larger than the simple diameter difference implies.

Also, unless you're only going to use FMJ, you'd need to compare the differences between properly expanded hollow points to be meaningful.

Measurements (and equations) of the projectile are simply expressions of a potential effect. The actual effect depends as much (or more) upon the thing being hit, as the thing doing the hitting. This is a basic metrological principle.

The proper point of comparison is not the projectiles, but the wounds created.

A comparison of actual wounds (decades of data by now) indicates that there is either no difference, or that any slight difference noted is insignificant given effects on physical incapacitation.

[Mystro]

Anyone actually kill anything these these two rounds??? I am talking real first hand knowledge?????? I kinda have pretty much made my mind up with my own empirical data from what I have seen with shooting large deer with handgun hunting. Deer are a hell of alot stronger than a human. I have killed deer with the 357mag and 10mm and the shot placements were all about the same being broadside double lung shots. Now before anyone looses their mind and say that these are different calibers, let me explain. I reload both calibers and have taken a few deer with both. The 10mm loaded down producing 500 ftlbs of energy with a 155gr. About what a 40S&W Hornady produces. My 357mag rounds were producing about the same 500 ftlbs of energy with a 158gr bullet. That is a bit more than what a 9mm will produce but still close enough for this comparison. Without a doubt the 10mm had more of a impact on the deer than the 357mag did. I noticed this on all occasions up to the point that I stopped using the 357mag and will only use a 40cal and up handgun for hunting. All deer were recovered with both 10mm and 357 bullets at full expansion. Deer shot with the 10mm fell quicker and had noticeably a quicker death. One was even a bang/flop.
There is no way anyone is gonna tell me a 9mm with less ftlbs and smaller diameter wound channel has equaled the much more powerful and larger 40. This is especially true that my loaded 357mags are even hotter than the the hottest 9mm. If I can tell a difference with a 357/10mm then there is sure as heck a bigger difference with the even less powerful 9mm and 40 comparison. Physics is physics and they have always proven to be true when actually killing a large mammals. The largest bullet with the most energy always wins. New high tech bullets and studies sell magazines and have some validity being ONE test or source of info. They sure as heck are not the final word or even untainted by outside influences that have other agendas proving a end result. All I can tell you is what I have first handily seen and experience being a handgun hunter for over 20 years with many game under my handgun belt.

I like and carry the 9mm all the time and know it has a proven track record (with high performance ammo) but I also carry the 40S&W ,10mm, 45acp in my larger combat size guns and it always is the preferred choice because of its increased power.
In other words,... the 9mm is great if the size of the handgun has to be small and compact or recoil is a issue for the shooter. You cant beat some of the small 9mm pocket pistols for firepower and portability. Larger calibers like the 40 and 45acp will always trump the 9mm in larger combat size handguns for their increased power.
It still boils down to what all the experts have said over the years...."Shoot the largest caliber you can control".

[chrisintexas]

which .40 s&w handgun do you recommend?

[BarryLee]

which .40 s&w handgun do you recommend?

I’ve got an HK USP40 which is a very smooth shooting reliable gun.

[Mystro]

which .40 s&w handgun do you recommend?

Depends on the size you like to carry. For full size, the Sig P229 was built for the 40 from the ground up. So was the HK USP Compact and full size USP. The FNS or FNX is also a great choice at a great price point. Walther PPQ is a sweet full size but lightweight striker fire if thats what you like.
The Glock 27 is great for a compact but very snappy recoil. In a compact size below the G27 or Shield 40, the 9mm is probably a better choice and significantly easier to control.

I carry the HK USP Compact 40 the most over the last 20 years. It just feeds everything, light weight, and combat proven. It also can be carried in any condition. It feels like a light weight polymer P229.
My P229 Dark Elite with a TLR1 is my nightstand gun.

[zombietactics]

Deer are a hell of alot stronger than a human.

Which changes the range and scope of the problem. A better effect on a much stronger target does not necessarily equate to a similar difference (of effect) on a much weaker target.

I don't have a problem with the suggestion that an animal a lot tougher and stronger than a human being (and having a pretty different physiology in general) would be better affected by a projectile with greater velocity. It might take that velocity and energy (which will be expressed in penetration) to "do the trick".

It's interesting to note that .357sig projectiles are pretty much the the same diameter as 9mm, and that 10mm projectiles are the same diameter as .40S&W.

.357sig is really just "a faster 9mm". .40S&W is really just "a slower 10mm". This should be something of a clue to people hung up on diameter as the metric of performance.

What you get for your money with the faster rounds is EITHER more penetration OR earlier (or more certain ... it depends) expansion. If you are shooting humans, the penetration isn't much of a factor, as you can already get all the penetration that does any good out of something in the 9/40/45 range. The additional (or earlier) expansion may or may not make a difference ... depends upon a lot of factors which will vary widely from case-to-case ... far too many to account for.

[Mystro]

Its not a larger target. Whitetail I kill are normally between 140-200lbs. Two lungs and a heart. These animals are tougher because of environment and conditioning. Physiologically they will succumb to a bullet impact the same way a 140- 200 lbs human will. Shot placement is everything thats why its very important that a broadside shot is made to simulate a chest shot on a man size target. Ballistic testing on goats were also a preferred method before social pressure stopped the practice.

FYI... I appreciate the candid and stimulating talk. Its great to see this. Sometimes caliber threads get hostile and personal. Everyone certainly deserves their own opinion. Kudos to everyone.

Which changes the range and scope of the problem. A better effect on a larger target does not necessarily equate on a similar difference (of effect) on a smaller target.

[TimSr]

There are a lot of factors that people consider when choosing a caliber and a lot of legitimate debate to be had. However, I’m not sure that departments are switching to the 9mm because they see it as “less lethal”.

I'm just guessing it it would be political more than practical, and am no way implying that either cartridge would be more effective. I'm just thinking of those departments that will not allow hollow points or other types of ammo due to politics. Both cartridges have been proven to be quite effective, and I cannot come up with any practical reason to switch from one to the other.

In the olden days, a lot of police officers would have preferred a .45 over a .38 but were denied the choice for political reasons.

[zombietactics]

Its not a larger target.

See my edits re "stronger" vs. "larger" ... done before your post, with a note that I edited for technical accuracy. Deer have stronger hide than human skin, which accounts for a greater need for penetration ... among other factors. It's not a question of size, but rather structure.

I have no doubts that 10mm does a better job on deer than 9mm.

[Metalboy]

Well said Sir Mystro,
Here the Wisconsin DNR will also back you up, because at deer hunting time about 700 000 of us are in the woods hunting whitetail deer, we have some experience.
Opsss...correcting , a +i

[zombietactics]

I wasn't aware we were talking about hunting deer with handguns ... or bear, etc.

I'll bow out of this conversation, if I am mistaken in that regard.

Otherwise, I'd ever-so-humbly suggest we stay on topic. Deer are not a sound analog for wounding effects on human beings, for a whole slew of reasons. It's pretty much a case of "one of these things is not like the other", lol.

We don't really need an "appeal to deer", because we have sufficient "evidence on humans".

But - like I said - if we're now talking about hunting, I'll just STFU ... I know when I am out of my lane, lol.

[chrisintexas]

I prefer a striker fired .40 s&w. which ones do you recommend?

[zombietactics]

I prefer a striker fired .40 s&w. which ones do you recommend?

I'll admit to limited experience. I've only fired a small handful of .40S&W handguns, and only own two: Glock22 and Springfield XD40.

Of the striker-fired guns, the XD40 is unusually smooth-shooting, IMHO ... much more so than my Glock or other .40S&W guns I've fired. The Ruger SR40 is also exceptionally easy to control. In both of those cases, I find them no more trouble than a similar 9mm.

Hammer-fired: Sig P229 gets my vote, based upon my limited experience.

[Mystro]

I prefer a striker fired .40 s&w. which ones do you recommend?

There are ALOT of good striker fire to choose from. Some of the better triggers are the Sig p320 and Walther PPQ. Outstanding out of the box triggers. The Sig p320 is very unique that it will let you exchange calibers and frame sizes all in one handgun.

[Banger357]

I've heard so many old guys grumbling and blustering about the .40 ("cleverly" referring to it as the .40 short&weak), but that just because they fear change and they're mad the .40 got popular instead of the 10mm. Ammo technology, like most technology, is progressing so yes, they are able to make 9mm ammo which is better suited for LEO than the cartridge in general used to be. However, the same technology can be applied to the .40, making that even MORE superior. The cost of the 2 rounds is negligible anymore so maybe for huge departments who run through tons of the stuff, the difference in price between those two cartridges would be worth going back to 9, but for smaller departments they may prefer a slightly higher cost to the slightly lower performance than the 9. With the ammo options out there these days, I don't think one is much ahead of the other, it is more about what they already have in their arsenal.

[zombietactics]

However, the same technology can be applied to the .40, making that even MORE superior.

Give an example of where that has happened?

I think you might be ignoring a few important factors:

• The FBI/IWBA protocols identify what is probably the most ideal range of characteristics for a self-defense round.
• There are plenty of rounds in 9/10/357/40/45 which meet those standards.
• What is "more superior" than meeting those standards? (more penetration is a "fail") Please be specific.
• .40S&W is already designed near the upper limit of pressure the chamber and barrel can handle ... where is that "more superior" going to come from?

.40S&W is an excellent round. What does it lack, that you propose to add? How would that be different than going to 10mm ... which is simply a faster .40S&W?

[kcub]

If you lower the bar more pass the test making it easier to fill the quotas.

Same song different verse but that's the real reason why the pendulum is swinging in the 9s favor.

[lee n. field]

which .40 s&w handgun do you recommend?

I prefer a striker fired .40 s&w. which ones do you recommend?

XD40 Service



(IL CCW qual. 10 shots each at 3, 7 and 10 yards, "keep it in the blue". Not a great challenge, but I like how this one turned out.)

[crimsondave]

How many times has law enforcement or military looked into replacing .40 or .45? That's all I need to know.

[SGW Gunsmith]

Well, I have to agree. The .40 S&W is really "on the way out". Every time I leave my shop or house, my .40 S&W Glock 23 is on the way out with me in a Kirkpatrick holster on my right hip. An extra magazine with 12 rounds is on my left hip. So, I guess we could safely say that, "extra magazines" are also on the way out, at least when I go out.

http://saronagunworks.com

[Metalboy]

Same song different verse but that's the real reason why the pendulum is swinging in the 9s favor.

Agree, even if saying it is politically incorrect.

How many times has law enforcement or military looked into replacing .40 or .45? That's all I need to know.

To the best of my knowledge, only ones. And that was when they replaced the good ol' .45, with Mr. pipsqueak.

[johnwilliamson062]

and almost any platform that can be chambered in 9x19mm can also be chambered for the .40 S&W.

Which 9mm designs were successfully converted to 40SW? I think they all needed significant redesigns after unsuccesful attempts to jam the cartridge into 9mm designs.

It is impossible to predict the future, but the 40SW was made popular on a wave of "The FBI round" fame. Now the FBI says it isn't any better than 9mm. I don't see how it will possibly stay mainsream forever without someone adopting it. As LEO switch away from it price will rise even farther and hasten it's demise.

[AustinTX]

For full size, the Sig P229 was built for the 40 from the ground up. So was the HK USP Compact and full size USP.

That's true for every 9mm/.40 service pistol platform designed after the introduction of the .40.

[Deaf Smith]

.45 acp is still here... .45 colt to. .38 special is still here, .380 is still here, even .32 acp is still here.

The .40 S&W and .357 Sig will be around for a while folks.

Don't sweat it.

Deaf

[lee n. field]

That's true for every 9mm/.40 service pistol platform designed after the introduction of the .40.

Not true, but don't let me get in the way of a good rant.