Texas Deer Hunting - what went wrong?

[kingudaroad]

i have not had the chance to still hunt in colorado or montana or alaska but I would love to someday and some day I certainly will. But to even consider still hunting the Texas hill country would be impossible unless you were absolutley certain there were no other hunters around. I have the opportunity to drve 1 1/2 hours to my deer camp to be with friends and hunt in blinds over feeders.Spend one day and back to work. I guess until that lotto ticket hits I'll continue to hunt Texas style. Or better yet let's all move to Colorado!

[butch50]

You are the one doing all the griping and complaining.

I am well aware that I am making statements that are unpopular with the people who shoot deer over bait, but I don't believe I am griping or complaining. Maybe I am though, and if I am, then so what? That doesn't change the contents of my statements one iota.

Facts are stubborn things and will remain facts regardless of who delivers them or how. I would be unahppy if someone pointed out to me that what I thought was a sporting hunt was in fact about as sporting as shooting fish in a barrel. I would resent it a whole lot more if my Father had taught me to hunt over bait and that I was following family tradition.

It would be great if we had the open country that some other states have, and it would be great if everyone could experience hunting at some point in their lives, but it won't happen here. The deer lease ninjas will continue to pour out of the cities every fall and set up feeders and shoot deer and go home feeling all pumped up that they have really had an outdoor experience. The lease owners will continue to run to the banks with wads of cash that is derived from the lease ninjas hunting captive deer trained to come to feeders.

Too bad because there are fair chase opportunities here in Texas, and all it takes to enjoy it is to understand what it is and to expend the energy to do it. Doubly too bad because fair chase hunting is a heck of a lot less expensive than leasing. Too bad because when you take a deer in fair chase, you have truly done something unique and difficult, and there is a real sense of accomplishment.

I suspect that almost everyone who has ever taken a deer over an automated feeder from a cushy stand 1/2 mile from his truck hears a deep down little voice telling them that they really didn't do much after all......

[MeekAndMild]

The lease owners will continue to run to the banks with wads of cash that is derived from the lease ninjas hunting captive deer trained to come to feeders.

Until CWD wipes them all out and ruins the hunting for everyone.

[butch50]

I was at Half-Price books this afternoon and stopped by the hunting section. I scanned thru all of the books on Deer Hunting, and of all the varied hunting techniques explained in all of the books they had, not one explained how to hunt over a feeder. Isn't that curious.

[locked'n'cocked]

yea that doesnt really sound like hunting. i hear its legal to shoot from a vehicle in TX too.

[UT_Air_Assault]

i hear its legal to shoot from a vehicle in TX too

IIRC you can as long as the engine isn't running for "game animals" (deer, dove etc). But for "non-game" animals (hogs, coyotes etc) you can hunt them from anything with anything (including Machine Guns ).

[locked'n'cocked]

thanks for the clarification. shootin a hog with a machine gun out of a truck at a hog sounds very sporting to me.

[CastleBravo]

If you don't like the way we hunt in Texas, you are free to hunt your way as long as it is safe and legal. If you don't like living here, then be advised that the roads into Texas also lead out of Texas.

That's a pretty sad response. Can't present a cogent argument? No problem! Just tell the guy to leave the sate because of a disagreement over hunting techniques!

[20cows]

Not all of us hunt from a blind over a feeder. Though I have hunted from a blind, I've never hunted deer over bait. I found the skill most necessary other than being able to hit a target, was patience. Yep, I brought a book. No, some might not call this "hunting" (I would call it finding, though ). But was it unsporting to make a one-shot kill at 125 yds with an open sighted 94 in 38-55?

Is it more of a hunt to step out of the blind late in the day, scope the open field one more time and land one at 276 yds with a Japenese service rifle? (Surely that's hunting, I wasn't in the blind anymore).

These days, I just don't have time to arrange a "hunting trip" and dedicate several days for the purpose. My "hunting" now consists of checking out my pastures in the evening on my way out to check the livestock. On two separate occasions this past season, I hit pay dirt. On the first, I was able to stop, get out of the truck, step over my fence and take one that was curious and turned to look back (Lot's wife kinda' thing) at about 150 yds. The second, I spotted a herd at quite a distance, stalked 200 yds to make a heart shot at 175 yds (come on, surely that counts as "hunting").

My point is that we all have to make accommodations to fit our circumstances. I'm talking about both physical realities and local customs of acceptability. I'll be the first to admit that I'm way more a shooter than a hunter, but hunting does provide interesting opportunities to shoot.

Can't we all just get along?

[Long Path]

There aren't any bright lines to this.

In the desert, a water hole is as good or better than a feeder.

Scents and calls bring in animals without "skill," too.

How many waterfowlers use decoys? How many use their own skills to make their OWN decoys? Most just buy plastic ones.

Art, as usual, covered it pretty well.

BTW, there ARE public lands in Texas-- about 1 million acres of Type I and Type II public lands.

[MassHunter2190]

On the first, I was able to stop, get out of the truck, step over my fence and take one that was curious and turned to look back (Lot's wife kinda' thing) at about 150 yds. The second, I spotted a herd at quite a distance, stalked 200 yds to make a heart shot at 175 yds (come on, surely that counts as "hunting").

Well, maybe in Texas it is, but around here we call that "road hunting/shooting/spotting/cheating"

If anyone wants to actually hunt, come up here and we'll organize a couple pushes. I'd reccomend you bring a couple pairs of good boots, lots of layers, and your 12 gauge.

[locked'n'cocked]

thank you masshunter2190. i agree 100 percent.

[butch50]

My point is that we all have to make accommodations to fit our circumstances.

I agree with that. We all have to work with what we have. As pointed out though, there are public lands in Texas and if you are willing to walk/climb/wade/etc you can get away from the crowd and find good hunting of the fair chase style. I know seveal people who have shot a deer over a feeder once and will never do it again. They have found other ways to hunt.

Maybe part of the "problem" is video games. Kids grow up playing video games and it is an easy transition to sit in a blind and wait for a deer to present itself. Maybe. Maybe it is just plain laziness. People want to kill a deer and they want antlers to hang on the wall and they don't mind paying for it, they just don't want to work at it. Maybe.

I am really disgusted by the tall fencing thing on top of the feeders. With fencing the deer are turned into domestic livestock that pretty much take care of themselves. Plus it is theft of public property, in my opinion, to pen deer up and not let the public have access to them if they don't pay. I have seen where some states allowed the fencing, but the land owner had to pay the state $250 for each deer inside. That is not much money for a deer, but at least they paid for it.

[artsmom]

Some people who hunt only consider those animals that can easily injure or kill the hunter to be "sporting".

Some only hunt with the most primitive weapons, such as a handcrafted long bow and wooden arrows, or even a boar spear and knife.

Some only enjoy a hunt if they can use a pointer or pack of hounds that they train and feed and exercise. (I always thought that those who state that hounds made bear hunting "too easy" should have to care for and train a pack, and see how much hard work is really avoided by using them!)

Some won't kill a turkey unless it came expressly to there call. I heard tell that they will break up a flock in easy shotgun range, eschewing to kill one then, to give them an opportunity to call one in and kill it.

I know one guy who normally won't shoot at geese until they land and he can check them over for tags or bands, since he collects them. Is this more or less sporting?

Hunting will always have those who look to make it easier and more effective, and those who make it harder and more challenging. Neither way inhernetly kills off the fun and enjoyment.

The hard feelings come only when people start to grade results and/or efforts put forth to get those results. Then the guy who shot a big 4x4 over a feeder on private land feels superior to the guy with a forkhorn shot while still hunting on private land, and this guy holds the feeder hunter as a butcher in blaze orange because he didn't "earn" his deer, he bought it.

In each case, they are hunting for an imaginary audience, instead of themselves. Someone will always get a bigger deer or have a harder hunt, (or in the case of legendary bowhunter Chuck Adams, both), so by voluntarily ranking yourself above others, you also put yourself below others, instead of treating each hunt as a never to be duplicated challenge that you took.

[butch50]

Artsmom: Intelligent and well reasoned response. I differ with you though where you take the reasoning fork in the road that the differences come when comparing results between a large buck taken over bait vs a small buck taken by fair chase.

I don't believe it is about comparisons. I think the difference comes from people who do understand sportsmanship observing the acts of people who do not understand sportsmanship.

I agree that there are all kinds of lines that can be drawn as to what is and what isn't sporting, for each and every game animal, in each and every environment. Tree stands are anathema to some while necessary to others, depending on terrain, for instance. The reason that I don't believe that hunting over a mechanical feeder is sporting inside land that is deer fenced is because the hunter has changed the deers habitat and habits to improve his success ratio, and to suit his inherent laziness.

Deer should not be "trained" to come to a specific spot at a specific time so that they can be "conveniently" shot. That is not hunting by any definition that I can think of. That is behavior modification of the deer. That is training an animal to do what you want, where you want it and when you want it.

I have to believe that reasonable people can see that it is unsporting and unethical to train wild deer to be easily shot, and then to shoot them. I have to believe that the people who do so, don't do it out of some kind of maliciousness, but more out of some sort of an unthinking mass herd instinct that everyone else does it so it must be ok for me to do it too, plus because it is real easy and most people are lazy by nature - so it all flows together. It is what they have always seen and done and it is easy and everyone else who does it approves of it and congratulates them for doing it when they do it too, so it must be "right."

I suspect that most Texans have absolutely no idea that the majority of America's hunters would be shocked to see how the deer are typically hunted down here in Texas. Or maybe they do realize it and it is a secret shame that they try to keep buried in their subconcious, after all I don't ever recall seeing a hunting show on TV where the hunters were hunting over a mechanical feeder. I can't recall ever seeing an article in Field and Stream or Outdoor Life on how to hunt over a mechanical feeder either; although they may have and I missed it.

I have to believe that reasonable people will not understand how it can be legal to fence in deer, that are public property, and then sell them to the highest bidder and keep the profits either.

[20cows]

As I read over these posts I get the disinct impression that some people like games with standardized "rules." They want us to use the same play book they use and all follow the rules as they know them. (Can you imagine a national game warden as the play official, blowing a whistle and assessing a 100 yard penalty for setting up too close to the water hole?)

Hunting is more like poker. House rules and many ways to play the game, but all with the same ultimate goal. If you're more comfortable with your rules, fine, play your game. Just don't belittle someone else that had a different daddy, grew up in a different part of the country, has a completely different set of field conditions and a different set of game laws.

(I still think having to stalk a deer through 200 yards of broken cover is hunting and not CHEATING. Are you saying it doesn't count because I wasn't in the field for two hours and freezing my tail off prior to making the shoot?)

[butch50]

20cows, no I am saying it definitely "doesn't count" if you train the deer to arrive at specific spot at a specific time and you are there in a blind to shoot them when they show up as trained. Deer can resist corn about the way a junkie can resist his next fix. It especially "doesn't count" if the deer are captive inside a pen, regardless of how many acres in size the pen is, they are no longer free to leave the entire area if and when the hunting pressure becomes intense. One of the deers most effective and natural defenses is to move away from hunting pressure to areas with less pressure. That makes it more of a fair chase because the hunter knows that and does everything he can to minimize his "presence" in the area. When the deer can't leave then you have a herd of livestock.

The tall fence leases generally try to place as many hunters on stands as possible, it is about money after all. That means that the deer can not find a place of lower pressure to move to, not the way they could before the tall fencers "legally" stole public property.

Stalking a deer through 200 yards of broken cover is fair chase, if you found the deer by scouting and understanding his habitat and habits. Anyone who has tried it knows that stalking a deer on his turf is a very difficult thing that takes a lot of skill and a good measure of luck. If you stalk a deer through 200 yards of broken cover because it was eating corn at a mechanical feeder though, that isn't fair chase.

It isn't about rules and umpires, it is about using your brain and skill against the deers senses and awareness; to get close enough to the deer, on its own ground, to make a clean one shot kill. But it is not about turning wild deer into junkies so that they can be trained to conveniently appear for you at a specific time and place. It isn't about rules so much as it is about ethics and respect.

[20cows]

As per my original post, there was no feeder. I spotted the herd about 400 yds from the road in a wheat field, where I had seen them on previous occasions (Oh, no! Scouting from a VEHICLE!). They were between 25 and 100 yards from the brush line and escape. There are no game fences, just grass, mesquite, cattle and regular stock fences.

I'm sorry this does not come up to some folk's standards of "fair chase," but for me, it's the only game in town.

It isn't about rules and umpires, it is about using your brain and skill against the deers senses and awareness; to get close enough to the deer, on its own ground, to make a clean one shot kill.

Yeah, I did that too.

[Jseime]

we may consider hunting feeders unethical or not sporting but at the same time its how its done. With little public land you have to adapt to whats available to you.

We can bash these hunters for the way they hunt or we can be happy that theyre not out there with the brady bunch trying to ban guns. It seems to me that Texas isnt about to run out of white tails either.

[kingudaroad]

We can bash these hunters for the way they hunt or we can be happy that theyre not out there with the brady bunch trying to ban guns.

......My next door neighbors your talking about. An open minded post from a true still hunting region..Refreshing!

[butch50]

We can bash these hunters for the way they hunt or we can be happy that theyre not out there with the brady bunch trying to ban guns. It seems to me that Texas isnt about to run out of white tails either.

I guess that I am bashing at them. They are doing what they were taught and what they think is normal, and what danger is there in that?

How about the danger of not thinking for yourself and acting in an unethical manner because it is the norm? There is public land in Texas, lots of it. If people realized that training deer to come to the gun isn't right, then maybe they would quit doing it and find a better way.

Texas is in absolutely no danger of running out of deer, but this isn't about deer population, it is about men and ethics.

[impact]

Butch from your post I get the idea that you have not hunted texas very long?

The people I know that hunt the national forest get around on mountain bikes. hard for me to belive you can outwalk a mountain bike!

Feeders work well out in west Texas. In east Texas they may not work at all and most of the time they don't. If there was a good acorn crop you can forget about a feeder. Seems like there is a good acorn crop every year. Feeders will work in east Texas when the acorns are gone at the end of the year. I have found in east texas that deer don't run to corn like candy. They will only eat corn when there is nothing else to eat and don't come running when they hear the sound of the feeder. I have found that most deer that feed at a feeder feed at night.

All that being said I don't rely on a feeder to get a deer. And all the people that ground hunt north of Texas must not know what fireants are

Butch you being from DFW I would think you know this if you hunt much at all. I just hope you are not a troll with some kind of political liberal ajenda

[20cows]

So to be an ethical hunter, I need to drive to the nearest public land to hunt. The nearest I know about that allows deer hunting is the Black Gap Wildlife Management Area in the Big Bend, 300 miles away where the deer are mule deer and the season is ~2 weeks long and in the middle of the school year - no white tail to speak of, I believe. This is a VERY large area with VERY limited road access and the only supplies available within 100 miles are those you brought. I would probably need 3 or 4 days of scouting to figure out where the deer are moving and all that, then maybe have a chance to take one.

Or I can be unethical and notice the behavior of the white tail deer I see regularly when taking care of my livestock on MY place. Yeah, I live in town and often see them off the county road as I get to MY place. I usually do this after school, you know in the early evening, when the deer are actively moving around. Before the season starts, I kinda' notice a pattern of movement and make sure I've got my rifle with me as soon as the TWO MONTH long white tail season starts in a county in which I can legally take two bucks and four antlerless. Sure enough, some days I see the deer doing what I'm expecting them to do. Sometimes they are out in the field and I have an opportunity to make a stalk. Sometimes they are crossing the road in front of my truck into MY open pasture and give me the chance to get out of the truck, cross the fence (no, I dont shoot from the public road, that's illegal) and take a shot.

Now, am I "road hunting/shooting/spotting/cheating", or have I been hunting by studying the habits of my quarry all season long and put myself in a position to exploit what I have learned (Is this not what ALL hunters do other than just trusting in blind luck)?

[butch50]

Hi Impact! I have been hunting in Texas for going on 45 years now. I did quit hunting in the National Forests a long time ago because A: they are bisected at fairly regular intervals by roads and it is hard to get away from the crowd, and B: There are some real nut jobs that hunt in there.

Texas has a program that costs about $40 per year to buy an annual hunting permit that allows you to hunt on a wide variety of lands that the state leases from private land owners. These lands tend to be far less crowded and not bisected by roads the way National Forests or Timber lands are. The places that I have been hunting can not be reached with a dirt bike, you gotta walk/wade/climb/bustbrush to get in there.

You know, if everyone who hunted on leases with feeders listened to me then they would ruin my hunting, but I know they won't listen so I can keep on with my opinions. I have personally seen feeders on four or five occasions and watched how the deer show up, and brother they showed up. As far as feeders go my experience is somewhat limited in scope, but there is no doubt in my mind that training deer to come to your gun is wrong, unsporting and unethical. Fencing in deer that are public property should be criminal, and I do not understand why it is not.

Do I have a trolls political agenda? No, but I do have an opinion, and a very unpopular opinion here at home. So far no one has made a convincing argument (at least to me) why it is sporting and ethical to hunt over bait. I grew up out in the country and was taught to hunt in the old school manner. Taught to be a conservationist. I was a grown man the first time that I saw a game warden in the field, but we obeyed all the laws without being monitored anyway. In fact we didn't hunt at certain times of the year even though it was legal, because it was poor conservation to hunt then. Different world than it is now.

It's all about hunting in a sporting manner. We hunt for sport, we do not hunt for food. We should not hunt just for the killing alone. If all I wanted to accomplish was to kill deer, then I too would hunt over bait. Think about it.

20cows - what you describe is far better than hunting over bait given that you don't have the tall fences to keep the deer in. The land you describe in the Big Bend area really sounds interesting though and I would like to hear more about it.

[impact]

20cows don't you need to put in for a permit and hope to get a permit to hunt mule deer at Black Gap