What's the difference between an old and new model 12?

RebBacchus · November 21, 2015, 08:57 PM

As I sit here doing a long overdue cleaning of my Winchester Model 12 featherweight, and working the slide as fast as I can, thanks to the two new screws located through this forum (thanks SO MUCH!) Anyone have any cleaning tips? Recommendations on how often you should completely strip it down to give it a complete cleaning? Still, as I work I can't help but wonder what is different between mine and other model 12s especially the "new" ones.

One reason I can work the slide so fast is because it fires if I hold the trigger down.

I've been told that is one of the main differences between the "old model 12" and the new one. Why wouldn't the new ones have that feature, I love, although it did take a ton of rounds to be able to hold it on target, but it's faster than my 1100. What makes mine a "featherweight? If there's any lore or tips you know about Model 12s I'd love to hear them.

JimPage · November 21, 2015, 09:07 PM

My model 12 is like yours. (bought it in 1960) The fire on pump closing if you hold the trigger back is a feature of the "old" school. I find it most helpful on skeet doubles from first and next to last station. It was useful a couple of times on grouse doubles. I like the feature and think it would be especially good in a self defense situation.

I have never done a complete takedown cleaning and it works fine still.

Dixie Gunsmithing · November 21, 2015, 09:33 PM

There was no difference between the earlier model 12's and the latter Y models, except for the wood and the rib, nor was there any featherweights made under the Y serialization. To be honest, those that have a Y at the start of their serial numbers, were built up from the last quantities of parts Winchester had, when they ended the line, hoping that they would survive by selling the 1200 and 1400, which they found out made their business situation worse. People complained about the model 12 being discontinued, so Winchester came out with the Super X Model 1, semi-auto, a great gun, but they lost money on every one they sold, until they discontinued it too. The Winchester guns, that used all those machined parts, could not compete with the likes of Remington and others, who had converted to aluminum castings and sheet metal stampings. The 1200 and 1400 was their answer, but nobody liked them near as well as the older guns, like the model 12 and model 50. I have a model 50 featherweight, like brand new. It was a well made shotgun, or the later versions were, and I have several model 12s.

If I recall, the Browning 20 ga. model 12's, were the same in every aspect, except that they all had trap type wood. They were made in Japan.

Scorch · November 22, 2015, 01:57 AM

All of the Browning Model 12s have trigger disconnects and a goofy trigger system. Look nice, but the internals are different.

Dixie Gunsmithing · November 22, 2015, 12:19 PM

Scorch, I forgot about that. I would say one might be able to fit a regular model 12, 20-28 ga. trigger in one of those, as all the other parts look close to being the same elsewise, except the hammer, which has a tit on it, that the disconnector hook grabs. One might have to drill a recess for the trigger spring into the trigger guard, and buy the spring with the trigger. I can't remember if there was a recess or well in the trigger guard for the Winchester mod. 12 trigger spring to set into, as there is one on the bottom of the trigger, for the top of the spring to seat. A person may have to change out the hammer, also, but maybe not. It would be an experiment to try it.

Why they did that, I don't know, as the gun can not fire until the rear of the bolt is raised and locked into the receiver recess. The hook on the action slide lock button holds the hammer from dropping until it is locked up, and the action rod is all the way forward.

gyvel · November 22, 2015, 02:49 PM

Like everything else in today's world, it was probably done for liability reasons.

In days of yore, and especially in the heyday of John M. Browning, Thomas C. Johnson et. al., people seemed to have more common sense, a lot less dumbass and lacked a penchant for lawsuits.

When Browning designed the 1893 and 1897 pump shotguns, he left out a disconnector mechanism, presumably to allow rapid fire. Since Winchester was the owner of that patent, Thomas C. Johnson was able to incorporate it into the Model 1912 (later Model 12).

It also appeared on (assuming here) the Remington Model 17 and 31; It was definitely featured on the Ithaca 37.

When Ithaca reintroduced its 37 in the 90s, the slamfire feature was gone, again, probably because of liability reasons.

November 21, 2015, 08:57 PM	#1
RebBacchus Member Join Date: October 28, 2015 Posts: 16	What's the difference between an old and new model 12? As I sit here doing a long overdue cleaning of my Winchester Model 12 featherweight, and working the slide as fast as I can, thanks to the two new screws located through this forum (thanks SO MUCH!) Anyone have any cleaning tips? Recommendations on how often you should completely strip it down to give it a complete cleaning? Still, as I work I can't help but wonder what is different between mine and other model 12s especially the "new" ones. One reason I can work the slide so fast is because it fires if I hold the trigger down. I've been told that is one of the main differences between the "old model 12" and the new one. Why wouldn't the new ones have that feature, I love, although it did take a ton of rounds to be able to hold it on target, but it's faster than my 1100. What makes mine a "featherweight? If there's any lore or tips you know about Model 12s I'd love to hear them. Last edited by RebBacchus; November 21, 2015 at 11:07 PM.

November 21, 2015, 09:07 PM	#2
JimPage Senior Member Join Date: February 21, 2010 Location: Rome, NY Posts: 941	My model 12 is like yours. (bought it in 1960) The fire on pump closing if you hold the trigger back is a feature of the "old" school. I find it most helpful on skeet doubles from first and next to last station. It was useful a couple of times on grouse doubles. I like the feature and think it would be especially good in a self defense situation. I have never done a complete takedown cleaning and it works fine still. __________________ Jim Page Cogito, ergo armatum sum

November 22, 2015, 01:57 AM	#4
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	All of the Browning Model 12s have trigger disconnects and a goofy trigger system. Look nice, but the internals are different. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

November 22, 2015, 02:49 PM	#6
gyvel Senior Member Join Date: August 30, 2009 Location: Northern AZ Posts: 7,172	Like everything else in today's world, it was probably done for liability reasons. In days of yore, and especially in the heyday of John M. Browning, Thomas C. Johnson et. al., people seemed to have more common sense, a lot less dumbass and lacked a penchant for lawsuits. When Browning designed the 1893 and 1897 pump shotguns, he left out a disconnector mechanism, presumably to allow rapid fire. Since Winchester was the owner of that patent, Thomas C. Johnson was able to incorporate it into the Model 1912 (later Model 12). It also appeared on (assuming here) the Remington Model 17 and 31; It was definitely featured on the Ithaca 37. When Ithaca reintroduced its 37 in the 90s, the slamfire feature was gone, again, probably because of liability reasons. __________________ As always, YMMV. __________________________________________ MIIAA SIFE Last edited by gyvel; November 22, 2015 at 02:59 PM.

November 21, 2015, 09:33 PM	#3
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	There was no difference between the earlier model 12's and the latter Y models, except for the wood and the rib, nor was there any featherweights made under the Y serialization. To be honest, those that have a Y at the start of their serial numbers, were built up from the last quantities of parts Winchester had, when they ended the line, hoping that they would survive by selling the 1200 and 1400, which they found out made their business situation worse. People complained about the model 12 being discontinued, so Winchester came out with the Super X Model 1, semi-auto, a great gun, but they lost money on every one they sold, until they discontinued it too. The Winchester guns, that used all those machined parts, could not compete with the likes of Remington and others, who had converted to aluminum castings and sheet metal stampings. The 1200 and 1400 was their answer, but nobody liked them near as well as the older guns, like the model 12 and model 50. I have a model 50 featherweight, like brand new. It was a well made shotgun, or the later versions were, and I have several model 12s. If I recall, the Browning 20 ga. model 12's, were the same in every aspect, except that they all had trap type wood. They were made in Japan.

November 22, 2015, 12:19 PM	#5
Dixie Gunsmithing Moderator Emeritus Join Date: April 27, 2013 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,923	Scorch, I forgot about that. I would say one might be able to fit a regular model 12, 20-28 ga. trigger in one of those, as all the other parts look close to being the same elsewise, except the hammer, which has a tit on it, that the disconnector hook grabs. One might have to drill a recess for the trigger spring into the trigger guard, and buy the spring with the trigger. I can't remember if there was a recess or well in the trigger guard for the Winchester mod. 12 trigger spring to set into, as there is one on the bottom of the trigger, for the top of the spring to seat. A person may have to change out the hammer, also, but maybe not. It would be an experiment to try it. Why they did that, I don't know, as the gun can not fire until the rear of the bolt is raised and locked into the receiver recess. The hook on the action slide lock button holds the hammer from dropping until it is locked up, and the action rod is all the way forward.