Very Old and Odd .22 Help Identifying

Rick Borecky · August 23, 2015, 08:00 PM

Never seen one of these nor can I find any markings. Pitted all over. Anyone eer see one of these? You cock the hammer back then pump it to load a single round. Thanks,Rick B

Tidewater_Kid · August 23, 2015, 08:41 PM

I looks like someone's home project or a prototype maybe. Stevens made a rolling block type that bears some resemblance. Curious to see what others might think.

Hawg · August 23, 2015, 09:04 PM

It looks a lot like a Stevens but the receiver screw pattern doesn't match anything I'm familiar with.

RJay · August 23, 2015, 09:12 PM

New to me, very odd, perhaps a concept gun or proof of patent sample? I've never seen anything quite like it.

Bill DeShivs · August 23, 2015, 09:14 PM

Home brew modification.

**4V50 Gary** · August 24, 2015, 01:12 AM

Concur with Bill. That's not a factory modification.

jonnyc · August 24, 2015, 09:23 AM

Agree with above; for whatever purpose, a garage modification of a rolling block.

bedbugbilly · August 24, 2015, 09:35 AM

I'm thinking a "shade tree gunsmith" Rube Goldberg as well . .

But whatever the origin, it's certainly "different" and worthy of having a place in the display rack!

JWT · August 24, 2015, 09:54 AM

Would John M. Browning be envious?

Magnum Wheel Man · August 24, 2015, 10:23 AM

still a single shot, the fore end pump just opens & closes the breech block ???

might have been someone looking for a stronger arrangement... my crack shots have been repaired, as at least one was shot with more modern ammo & damaged the weak lock work

could it be an early 22 mag, or the centerfire version ???

thallub · August 24, 2015, 11:30 AM

It's an early Bubba job on a rolling block rifle: Maybe a Stevens.

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/464504149042998522/

Rick Borecky · August 24, 2015, 06:40 PM

That rifle isn't even close. This rifle was made this way and not cut up. Rick B

**Mike Irwin** · August 24, 2015, 07:15 PM

I'm positive that is a Hopkins and Allen Model 722 single shot rolling block. Definitely a home brew action, not factory.

James K · August 24, 2015, 09:18 PM

Without checking, I don't know if that began as a Stevens or an H&A, but it looks like the internals (breech block and hammer) had to be new-made and the pins moved to allow the mechanism to work. Maybe Rick can check to see if the hammer actually locks the breech (as in most rifles of the "rolling" block type) or if the breech is held closed only by the mass of the iron foreend and the shooter's hand and arm.

As a way to open the breech rather than simply pulling back the breechblock, it seems to be an over-complication, a solution in search of a problem, but that is certainly nothing new (or old).

Jim

**Mike Irwin** · August 25, 2015, 06:41 AM

It's not a Stevens. It's a Hopkins & Allen. Every identification point on it matches up to the classic Hopkins & Allen 722, and none of them match up to any Stevens rifle I've ever seen or handled.

It looks like the standard H&A breechblock and hammer.

The "action bar" on the right side goes into the thumb spur hole.

HAs were locked by the mass of the hammer. I don't see that changing in this.

All I see is someone's bodge to make themselves a complicated "semi-semi pump rifle."

Magnum Wheel Man · August 25, 2015, 06:57 AM

curious if you have enough leverage to open the action with the pump, without pulling the hammer back 1st??? if that's the case, maybe it was an attempt to speed up the reloading of the rifle???

Rick Borecky · August 25, 2015, 12:42 PM

Now were cooking with Gas. It is a Hopkins & Allen for sure. The pump does not jack teh hammer back. It binds from all I have tried in all positions. Here is a short video showing how it works. Sorry it isn't clearer but it shows it ok. Rick B

https://youtu.be/xONM36epTe8

thallub · August 25, 2015, 03:36 PM

Yep, it's a Hopkins and Allen. Just looked at one of mine.

**Mike Irwin** · August 25, 2015, 03:49 PM

In order for the pump to work the hammer, it would, as Jim said, have to be completely reconfigured.

Those rolling blocks were often held in place during the high-pressure part of the firing cycle by a shoulder or ledge on the hammer intercepting the movement of the block.

You can see the big ledge on the hammer (10) in this exploded view of the 1869 Remington Rolling Block. It neatly nestled under the bottom of the breech block (11), and you can see from the relative dimensions that the action was pretty positively locked by the time the hammer contacted the firing pin.

This was for a much larger, more powerful cartridge, but the principle is the same.

That's why your "pump" won't open the action on your H&A. After you fire, pulling back on the pump essentially makes the action act as if you've just fired another round and there's pressure pushing back on the breech block.

In order to make it function, you'd have to create something that pushed the hammer back to at least half cock BEFORE it opened the breech block.

**Mike Irwin** · August 25, 2015, 03:52 PM

The image on this website shows the relationship of the parts even better, because it's a side view.

I said above that the H&A action was held closed by the mass of the hammer -- that's not correct.

http://www.leeroysramblings.com/Gun%...llustrated.htm

I just watched your video. When you pull back the hammer you can see an angled face underneath the vertical hammer face. That's what locks the breech block in place.

Rick Borecky · August 25, 2015, 04:41 PM

Thanks Mike and it is a friends gun. He dropped it off for me to fix the stock which is badly broken and missing wood. All I need is a butt plate for it and an ugly one at that. If I cannot find one I will make it. Thanks for all the help Mike and everyone else.. Rick B

James K · August 26, 2015, 12:33 AM

Is it marked "J M Browning"?

I had a chance to check, and Mike is right; those four pins are characteristic of the H&A 722, so I don't think there is any doubt as to the origin of the base gun.

It looks a bit like some "proof of concept" gun, but I can't really see what the "inventor" was trying to prove. Making a single shot pump gun would not seem the path to riches.

Jim

SRE · August 27, 2015, 06:39 PM

Looks like a Stevens Favorite rifle that someone tried to convert in to a pump action.... instead of a lever action falling block type. That's my guess. Didnt read any other replies just saw photos and posted.

**Mike Irwin** · August 28, 2015, 09:17 AM

Dude...

Read the other replies, and then you won't have to guess.

It has NOTHING to do with a Stevens rifle.

Not even close.

August 23, 2015, 08:00 PM	#1
Rick Borecky Junior Member Join Date: August 23, 2015 Posts: 4	Very Old and Odd .22 Help Identifying Never seen one of these nor can I find any markings. Pitted all over. Anyone eer see one of these? You cock the hammer back then pump it to load a single round. Thanks,Rick B

August 23, 2015, 09:12 PM	#4
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	New to me, very odd, perhaps a concept gun or proof of patent sample? I've never seen anything quite like it. __________________ Ron James

August 23, 2015, 09:14 PM	#5
Bill DeShivs Senior Member Join Date: April 7, 2006 Posts: 10,985	Home brew modification. __________________ Bill DeShivs, Master Cutler www.billdeshivs.com

August 24, 2015, 01:12 AM	#6
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,841	Concur with Bill. That's not a factory modification. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

August 24, 2015, 09:23 AM	#7
jonnyc Senior Member Join Date: July 20, 2009 Location: PA Posts: 1,731	Agree with above; for whatever purpose, a garage modification of a rolling block. __________________ 2024 PA Cartridge Collector Show; Aug. 16-17, 2024!!! Buy...Sell...Trade All Types of Ammunition & Ordnance PM or email me for 2024 show details.

August 23, 2015, 08:41 PM	#2
Tidewater_Kid Senior Member Join Date: July 3, 2005 Location: Alabama Posts: 925	I looks like someone's home project or a prototype maybe. Stevens made a rolling block type that bears some resemblance. Curious to see what others might think.

August 23, 2015, 09:04 PM	#3
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,189	It looks a lot like a Stevens but the receiver screw pattern doesn't match anything I'm familiar with.

August 24, 2015, 09:35 AM	#8
bedbugbilly Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2009 Posts: 3,287	I'm thinking a "shade tree gunsmith" Rube Goldberg as well . . But whatever the origin, it's certainly "different" and worthy of having a place in the display rack! __________________ If a pair of '51 Navies were good enough for Billy Hickok, then a single Navy on my right hip is good enough for me . . . besides . . . I'm probably only half as good as he was anyways. Hiram's Rangers Badge #63

August 24, 2015, 09:54 AM	#9
JWT Senior Member Join Date: March 16, 2007 Location: Southern Arizona Posts: 3,888	Would John M. Browning be envious?

August 24, 2015, 10:23 AM	#10
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	still a single shot, the fore end pump just opens & closes the breech block ??? might have been someone looking for a stronger arrangement... my crack shots have been repaired, as at least one was shot with more modern ammo & damaged the weak lock work could it be an early 22 mag, or the centerfire version ??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

August 24, 2015, 11:30 AM	#11
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	It's an early Bubba job on a rolling block rifle: Maybe a Stevens. https://www.pinterest.com/pin/464504149042998522/

August 24, 2015, 06:40 PM	#12
Rick Borecky Junior Member Join Date: August 23, 2015 Posts: 4	That rifle isn't even close. This rifle was made this way and not cut up. Rick B

August 24, 2015, 07:15 PM	#13
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	I'm positive that is a Hopkins and Allen Model 722 single shot rolling block. Definitely a home brew action, not factory. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 24, 2015, 09:18 PM	#14
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Without checking, I don't know if that began as a Stevens or an H&A, but it looks like the internals (breech block and hammer) had to be new-made and the pins moved to allow the mechanism to work. Maybe Rick can check to see if the hammer actually locks the breech (as in most rifles of the "rolling" block type) or if the breech is held closed only by the mass of the iron foreend and the shooter's hand and arm. As a way to open the breech rather than simply pulling back the breechblock, it seems to be an over-complication, a solution in search of a problem, but that is certainly nothing new (or old). Jim

August 25, 2015, 06:41 AM	#15
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	It's not a Stevens. It's a Hopkins & Allen. Every identification point on it matches up to the classic Hopkins & Allen 722, and none of them match up to any Stevens rifle I've ever seen or handled. It looks like the standard H&A breechblock and hammer. The "action bar" on the right side goes into the thumb spur hole. HAs were locked by the mass of the hammer. I don't see that changing in this. All I see is someone's bodge to make themselves a complicated "semi-semi pump rifle." __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 25, 2015, 06:57 AM	#16
Magnum Wheel Man Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 2006 Location: Southern Minnesota Posts: 9,333	curious if you have enough leverage to open the action with the pump, without pulling the hammer back 1st??? if that's the case, maybe it was an attempt to speed up the reloading of the rifle??? __________________ In life you either make dust or eat dust...

August 25, 2015, 12:42 PM	#17
Rick Borecky Junior Member Join Date: August 23, 2015 Posts: 4	Now were cooking with Gas. It is a Hopkins & Allen for sure. The pump does not jack teh hammer back. It binds from all I have tried in all positions. Here is a short video showing how it works. Sorry it isn't clearer but it shows it ok. Rick B https://youtu.be/xONM36epTe8

August 25, 2015, 03:36 PM	#18
thallub Senior Member Join Date: November 20, 2007 Location: South Western OK Posts: 3,112	Yep, it's a Hopkins and Allen. Just looked at one of mine.

August 25, 2015, 03:49 PM	#19
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	In order for the pump to work the hammer, it would, as Jim said, have to be completely reconfigured. Those rolling blocks were often held in place during the high-pressure part of the firing cycle by a shoulder or ledge on the hammer intercepting the movement of the block. You can see the big ledge on the hammer (10) in this exploded view of the 1869 Remington Rolling Block. It neatly nestled under the bottom of the breech block (11), and you can see from the relative dimensions that the action was pretty positively locked by the time the hammer contacted the firing pin. This was for a much larger, more powerful cartridge, but the principle is the same. That's why your "pump" won't open the action on your H&A. After you fire, pulling back on the pump essentially makes the action act as if you've just fired another round and there's pressure pushing back on the breech block. In order to make it function, you'd have to create something that pushed the hammer back to at least half cock BEFORE it opened the breech block. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 25, 2015, 03:52 PM	#20
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	The image on this website shows the relationship of the parts even better, because it's a side view. I said above that the H&A action was held closed by the mass of the hammer -- that's not correct. http://www.leeroysramblings.com/Gun%...llustrated.htm I just watched your video. When you pull back the hammer you can see an angled face underneath the vertical hammer face. That's what locks the breech block in place. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.

August 25, 2015, 04:41 PM	#21
Rick Borecky Junior Member Join Date: August 23, 2015 Posts: 4	Thanks Mike and it is a friends gun. He dropped it off for me to fix the stock which is badly broken and missing wood. All I need is a butt plate for it and an ugly one at that. If I cannot find one I will make it. Thanks for all the help Mike and everyone else.. Rick B

August 26, 2015, 12:33 AM	#22
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Is it marked "J M Browning"? I had a chance to check, and Mike is right; those four pins are characteristic of the H&A 722, so I don't think there is any doubt as to the origin of the base gun. It looks a bit like some "proof of concept" gun, but I can't really see what the "inventor" was trying to prove. Making a single shot pump gun would not seem the path to riches. Jim

August 27, 2015, 06:39 PM	#23
SRE Senior Member Join Date: May 15, 2011 Location: Southern York County, PA Posts: 145	Looks like a Stevens Favorite rifle that someone tried to convert in to a pump action.... instead of a lever action falling block type. That's my guess. Didnt read any other replies just saw photos and posted. __________________ Combat Commander

August 28, 2015, 09:17 AM	#24
Mike Irwin Staff Join Date: April 13, 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 41,390	Dude... Read the other replies, and then you won't have to guess. It has NOTHING to do with a Stevens rifle. Not even close. __________________ "The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.