Calling all Experts - Page 3

Doc Hoy · July 31, 2012, 07:59 PM

Buddy Brass is right at 20.00 a hundred with no shipping costs for orders over 50.00

Only problem here is that the brass is mixed nickel and brass. They take Paypal which is important to me.

I have an email message to another supply house at 13.84 per hundred but I need to find out what they charge for shipping and do they take paypal.

Waiting for a response from them.

Anyone on the forum with any .45 long colt to spare, I am in the market.

Doc Hoy · July 31, 2012, 08:21 PM

Your post was helpful.

Perhaps you read before that I am going to start out with the two groove 200RNFP from Lee.

I do not have any cases yet so I am talking out my A__ __ when I speculate but it seems as though one might be able to get 32 to 35 grains in with the wad.

I read somewhere that one BP reloader likes to use a thin ring of paper between the wad and the bullet to keep the wad from sticking to the bullet in flight.

He also puts thin paper over the primer to keep the powder from getting down to that end.

I am not sure I know why this is important. (I might hasten to add that he was speaking of large bore rifle cartridges.)

Hawg · July 31, 2012, 10:40 PM

I won't use nickel plated brass. Midway has new Starline for 22.00 per hundred and 500 for 98.00 but I didn't figure shipping.

Chowmif16 · August 1, 2012, 12:35 AM

Doc Hoy,
You are right, depending on the bullet you use, you may be able to fit 30-32 grains in the case. I fit 30gr in with a 200 gr RNFP bullet, over powder card (fairly thick one) and a grease cookie that was about 1/8 inch thick. So, there's lots of room for more powder if you delete the grease cookie and use a thinner over powder card.
I loaded about 20 452190's today, with a thick over powder card and no grease cookie. I seated the bullets so that the crimp was just about where the bullet starts to neck down towards the nose (probably 3/16th's above the top grease groove). With about 1 or 2 /16th's compression I was able to get 28gr by weight of 3f in the case. I could probably seat the bullet higher and get more, but this is my starting load for this bullet and will work it up an down till I find something the gun likes.
As for the paper over the primer, this is sometimes used in Long Range BP Cartridge Rifles - discussed by Paul Matthews in several of his books. The notion being that the old primers did not deliver as much heat/flame as the new primers, while also delivering more hot debris. Black powder apparently likes the hot/flaming debris more than hot gas. Modern primers are a product of smokeless powder which likes lots of hot gas. The idea being that if you put a piece of wax paper over the bottom of the cartridge, you dissipate those gasses quicker and provide a bit more combustible material to ignite the powder from the base of the powder column. This might provide a more even burn than would hot gasses going nearly all the way to the base of the bullet from modern primers. There are several Long Range BPCR guys that now use small pistol primers held in by a shim-ring on their rifle cartridges, creating less of a primer charge. I haven't tried that yet with my 45-70, but may do some day...

I'll let you know how I get on with the rest of my load build.

Cheers,
Chowmi

Chowmif16 · August 1, 2012, 01:05 AM

Just ordered some PRS big lube bullets, and I suspect that I will end up using those as my final load due to the amount of lube they carry.
I also suspect that this is not a new lesson learned...
I'll let you know.

Chowmi

Doc Hoy · August 1, 2012, 05:56 AM

F16,

It seems as though you are saying I could dispense with the paper at the bottom of the case (over the primer) without much effect. You also appear to be using a rather traditional BP bore lube (Beeswax and Crisco) on the bullet.

Wait a minute....No I have that wrong. You are soaking the cookie in that lube and using SPG on the bullet.

I would hope to be able to use the same lube on both the bullet and the wad and I would hope to make it.

Hawg,

Okay....No nickel, but can you tell me why? (Keep in mind I am new at cartridges) Hard on the pistol? Hard to load? Wrong for the period?

noelf2 · August 1, 2012, 07:35 AM

I don't care if it's nickel plated or not. Nickel won't hurt anything, but it certainly isn't needed. Only reason I use any nickel plated cases is if they will be in the cylinder for an extended period of time and in varying humidity. In those conditions, brass can corrode (green) and cause minor damage to the chamber walls. Nickel plate won't corrode anywhere near as fast as brass. None of my black powder guns are left in those conditions so I don't need nickel plated cases, but I wouldn't throw them away or pass them up if I could get them cheap.

Hawg · August 1, 2012, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Hawg,

Okay....No nickel, but can you tell me why? (Keep in mind I am new at cartridges) Hard on the pistol? Hard to load? Wrong for the period?

I have had too many of them split at the mouth with just a few loadings. I don't have a problem with brass splitting.

Fingers McGee · August 1, 2012, 11:31 AM

I load 44-40 and .38 special in nickel cases. They do not stain like brass cases and only require a quick washing in soapy water, rince and air dry prior to reloading. I do not have any more nickel cases split than I do brass ones. - My 44-40s are all starline & the .38s are mixed manufactures.

Doc Hoy · August 1, 2012, 03:19 PM

....Who is gonna sell me three hundred once fired for 60 bucks or so?

I have been all over the internet and they are either back ordered, too expensive or nasty sales person.

Jim Watson · August 1, 2012, 04:40 PM

Quote:

They were practicing for a 1,000 yd. match to be held in Alabama, not too far away, in August or September.

Florida Vet, can you say where this match is to be?
I was under the impression that there was no regulation 1000 yard range in Alabama, that the Alabama Long Range Championships have been held in Tennessee for some time.

Hawg · August 1, 2012, 05:59 PM

May have been here but I didn't think the 1000 yard range was open yet.
http://alabamatacticalshooters.com/

Jim Watson · August 2, 2012, 08:03 AM

The ATS range was shut down by noise complaints enforced against them because they were in the "police jurisdiction" and supported by the League of Municipalities.
The owner is suing to recover his sunk costs and moving to a new location, but that is going to push back operations a good deal.

Hawg · August 2, 2012, 10:56 AM

You obviously know more than I do.

Doc Hoy · August 2, 2012, 06:09 PM

I am going down to cut on the lead pot.

I'll wind up with a 200 grain RNFP with two grooves made from relatively pure lead (I think above 98%.)

I am going to use my standard lube in the two grooves and I am going to crimp the bullet such that both of the grooves are in the case.

I am going to use a wad with my standard lube over the powder.

I will not be using a paper between the wad and the slug (and this is where I need your advice)

I am going to use FFFg grade of Triple 7.

I am going to fill the case such that I get about 1/8 th inch compression. This gives me right at 30 Gr of powder.

I am using a WLP primer.

Hawg · August 2, 2012, 07:27 PM

Too much compression with 777. It doesn't like to be compressed but it cant have an airspace.

Sure Shot Mc Gee · August 2, 2012, 09:25 PM

Quote:

It doesn't like to be compressed but it cant have an airspace.

What happens if its compressed to much? or too much open gap left between the powder and the bullets base. What happens there? Just another one of those learning experience for me Hawg. I got a jug of Triple 7 in 2FF loose I've never opened here. I didn't know if it would work for my application of it. That's why it's still sealed yet after 3-4 years since I bought it.

robhof · August 2, 2012, 10:20 PM

If there's an air gap, there will be a serious pressure spike as with real b/p, too much compression and ignition is inconsistant, but it handles light compression quite well. I've used triple7 in 45Lc and 45ACP rounds in my BH convertable and I get consistant shots with repeatable results. I load on a single stage and seat bullet til light resistance is felt.

Doc Hoy · August 2, 2012, 11:29 PM

I reduce the charge so that the bullet seats as I desire without compression but with no air gap.

What about not using paper between the wad and the slug?

If I use lube such tht the grooves (two grooves) are lubed do I even need the wad?

Powderman · August 3, 2012, 02:18 AM

Howdy, Doc...

I load for BPCR, and use only Goex or Swiss powders.

Here's what I have learned...it might help.

1. Black Powder likes compression. heavy compression will give you a bigger flash--more unburnt powder coming out--but less recoil. Medium to light compression will burn more efficiently, but recoil will increase.

2. I have found that SPG bullet lube works well for my purposes. I know that there are some excellent recipes for home-made BP lube, but I haven't tried any yet. And, remember the primary purpose of bullet lube for BP guns--it is not so much for lubing the bullet, but softening the fouling left behind upon firing.

3. Your best friend at the range is a can or pan of soapy water. Dump your fired cases straight into them right after firing. If you want to go the extra mile, you can wipe the cases down after your range session is finished. it will make cleaning later on easier.

4. Make sure that you clean your revolver VERY well right after firing. The residue left behind is hydroscopic--attracts moisture.

5. Finally, it will be a good thing at the range to take a rag that you can dampen with soapy water. Periodically pull the cylinder and wipe down the front with the soapy water; follow that with a good oil. (Usually you would use absolutely NO petroleum products around black powder--however, since the cartridge is sealed it won't hurt.

If you have any more questions, I highly recommend Buffalo Arms Company. They will help tremendously in all aspects of BP shooting.

Doc Hoy · August 3, 2012, 05:37 AM

I was at the blinkin Pass Pro Shop yesterday and was standing in front of the GOEX and Opted to leave it on the shelf. Oh Well.

Can I get enough lube by using only the lube on the bullet or is it essential to use the wad too?

If I use the wad is it essential to use a paper between the wad and the slug to make sure the wad separates from the slug?

Jim Watson · August 3, 2012, 07:29 AM

You don't have the lube requirements with 777 that you do real black.
The one batch I tried worked fine with hard wax lubed smokeless bullets and cleaned up with clear water.

I only load real black for single shot rifles. The blow tube or wiping rod keep the gun at stable condition for every shot.

Doc Hoy · August 3, 2012, 07:52 AM

...It seems like you are saying I might could get away with not using the wad under the slug.

Do I have that right?

Tnx,

Hawg · August 3, 2012, 09:58 AM

Quote:

...It seems like you are saying I might could get away with not using the wad under the slug.

Do I have that right?

With 777 you probably can.

Doc Hoy · August 3, 2012, 10:02 AM

I am going with it.

I need the shell holder for the Auto-primer XR and I'll be rolling.

July 31, 2012, 07:59 PM	#51
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Here is what I have found for brass. Buddy Brass is right at 20.00 a hundred with no shipping costs for orders over 50.00 Only problem here is that the brass is mixed nickel and brass. They take Paypal which is important to me. I have an email message to another supply house at 13.84 per hundred but I need to find out what they charge for shipping and do they take paypal. Waiting for a response from them. Anyone on the forum with any .45 long colt to spare, I am in the market. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

July 31, 2012, 08:21 PM	#52
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	BTW Chowmi Your post was helpful. Perhaps you read before that I am going to start out with the two groove 200RNFP from Lee. I do not have any cases yet so I am talking out my A__ __ when I speculate but it seems as though one might be able to get 32 to 35 grains in with the wad. I read somewhere that one BP reloader likes to use a thin ring of paper between the wad and the bullet to keep the wad from sticking to the bullet in flight. He also puts thin paper over the primer to keep the powder from getting down to that end. I am not sure I know why this is important. (I might hasten to add that he was speaking of large bore rifle cartridges.) __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 1, 2012, 12:35 AM	#54
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	Grains per cartridge and paper over primer Doc Hoy, You are right, depending on the bullet you use, you may be able to fit 30-32 grains in the case. I fit 30gr in with a 200 gr RNFP bullet, over powder card (fairly thick one) and a grease cookie that was about 1/8 inch thick. So, there's lots of room for more powder if you delete the grease cookie and use a thinner over powder card. I loaded about 20 452190's today, with a thick over powder card and no grease cookie. I seated the bullets so that the crimp was just about where the bullet starts to neck down towards the nose (probably 3/16th's above the top grease groove). With about 1 or 2 /16th's compression I was able to get 28gr by weight of 3f in the case. I could probably seat the bullet higher and get more, but this is my starting load for this bullet and will work it up an down till I find something the gun likes. As for the paper over the primer, this is sometimes used in Long Range BP Cartridge Rifles - discussed by Paul Matthews in several of his books. The notion being that the old primers did not deliver as much heat/flame as the new primers, while also delivering more hot debris. Black powder apparently likes the hot/flaming debris more than hot gas. Modern primers are a product of smokeless powder which likes lots of hot gas. The idea being that if you put a piece of wax paper over the bottom of the cartridge, you dissipate those gasses quicker and provide a bit more combustible material to ignite the powder from the base of the powder column. This might provide a more even burn than would hot gasses going nearly all the way to the base of the bullet from modern primers. There are several Long Range BPCR guys that now use small pistol primers held in by a shim-ring on their rifle cartridges, creating less of a primer charge. I haven't tried that yet with my 45-70, but may do some day... I'll let you know how I get on with the rest of my load build. Cheers, Chowmi

August 1, 2012, 01:05 AM	#55
Chowmif16 Senior Member Join Date: April 22, 2012 Location: Huntsville, Utah Posts: 106	Bullets Just ordered some PRS big lube bullets, and I suspect that I will end up using those as my final load due to the amount of lube they carry. I also suspect that this is not a new lesson learned... I'll let you know. Chowmi

August 1, 2012, 05:56 AM	#56
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	So..... F16, It seems as though you are saying I could dispense with the paper at the bottom of the case (over the primer) without much effect. You also appear to be using a rather traditional BP bore lube (Beeswax and Crisco) on the bullet. Wait a minute....No I have that wrong. You are soaking the cookie in that lube and using SPG on the bullet. I would hope to be able to use the same lube on both the bullet and the wad and I would hope to make it. Hawg, Okay....No nickel, but can you tell me why? (Keep in mind I am new at cartridges) Hard on the pistol? Hard to load? Wrong for the period? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath. Last edited by Doc Hoy; August 1, 2012 at 07:06 AM.

July 31, 2012, 10:40 PM	#53
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	I won't use nickel plated brass. Midway has new Starline for 22.00 per hundred and 500 for 98.00 but I didn't figure shipping.

August 1, 2012, 07:35 AM	#57
noelf2 Senior Member Join Date: April 14, 2008 Location: Stuart, VA Posts: 2,473	I don't care if it's nickel plated or not. Nickel won't hurt anything, but it certainly isn't needed. Only reason I use any nickel plated cases is if they will be in the cylinder for an extended period of time and in varying humidity. In those conditions, brass can corrode (green) and cause minor damage to the chamber walls. Nickel plate won't corrode anywhere near as fast as brass. None of my black powder guns are left in those conditions so I don't need nickel plated cases, but I wouldn't throw them away or pass them up if I could get them cheap. __________________ Liberty and freedom often offends those who understand neither.

August 1, 2012, 11:31 AM	#59
Fingers McGee Senior Member Join Date: March 19, 2008 Location: High & Dry in Missouri Ozarks Posts: 2,113	I load 44-40 and .38 special in nickel cases. They do not stain like brass cases and only require a quick washing in soapy water, rince and air dry prior to reloading. I do not have any more nickel cases split than I do brass ones. - My 44-40s are all starline & the .38s are mixed manufactures. __________________ Fingers (Show Me MO smoke) McGee - AKA Man of Many Colts - Alter ego of Diabolical Ken; SASS Regulator 28564-L-TG; Rangemaster and stage writer extraordinaire; Frontiersman, Pistoleer, NRA Endowment Life, NMLRA, SAF, CCRKBA, STORM 327, SV115; Charter member, Central Ozarks Western Shooters Cynic: A blackguard whose faulty vision see things as they are, not as they should be. Ambrose Bierce

August 1, 2012, 03:19 PM	#60
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Y'all are avoidin the question.... ....Who is gonna sell me three hundred once fired for 60 bucks or so? I have been all over the internet and they are either back ordered, too expensive or nasty sales person. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 1, 2012, 05:59 PM	#62
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	May have been here but I didn't think the 1000 yard range was open yet. http://alabamatacticalshooters.com/

August 2, 2012, 08:03 AM	#63
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	The ATS range was shut down by noise complaints enforced against them because they were in the "police jurisdiction" and supported by the League of Municipalities. The owner is suing to recover his sunk costs and moving to a new location, but that is going to push back operations a good deal.

August 2, 2012, 10:56 AM	#64
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	You obviously know more than I do.

August 2, 2012, 06:09 PM	#65
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Okay...I am ready to start making bullets.... I am going down to cut on the lead pot. I'll wind up with a 200 grain RNFP with two grooves made from relatively pure lead (I think above 98%.) I am going to use my standard lube in the two grooves and I am going to crimp the bullet such that both of the grooves are in the case. I am going to use a wad with my standard lube over the powder. I will not be using a paper between the wad and the slug (and this is where I need your advice) I am going to use FFFg grade of Triple 7. I am going to fill the case such that I get about 1/8 th inch compression. This gives me right at 30 Gr of powder. I am using a WLP primer. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 2, 2012, 07:27 PM	#66
Hawg Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2007 Location: Mississippi Posts: 16,188	Too much compression with 777. It doesn't like to be compressed but it cant have an airspace.

August 2, 2012, 10:20 PM	#68
robhof Senior Member Join Date: September 16, 2007 Posts: 712	robhof If there's an air gap, there will be a serious pressure spike as with real b/p, too much compression and ignition is inconsistant, but it handles light compression quite well. I've used triple7 in 45Lc and 45ACP rounds in my BH convertable and I get consistant shots with repeatable results. I load on a single stage and seat bullet til light resistance is felt.

August 2, 2012, 11:29 PM	#69
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	So, Sounds like I reduce the charge so that the bullet seats as I desire without compression but with no air gap. What about not using paper between the wad and the slug? If I use lube such tht the grooves (two grooves) are lubed do I even need the wad? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 3, 2012, 02:18 AM	#70
Powderman Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2001 Location: Washington State Posts: 2,166	Howdy, Doc... I load for BPCR, and use only Goex or Swiss powders. Here's what I have learned...it might help. 1. Black Powder likes compression. heavy compression will give you a bigger flash--more unburnt powder coming out--but less recoil. Medium to light compression will burn more efficiently, but recoil will increase. 2. I have found that SPG bullet lube works well for my purposes. I know that there are some excellent recipes for home-made BP lube, but I haven't tried any yet. And, remember the primary purpose of bullet lube for BP guns--it is not so much for lubing the bullet, but softening the fouling left behind upon firing. 3. Your best friend at the range is a can or pan of soapy water. Dump your fired cases straight into them right after firing. If you want to go the extra mile, you can wipe the cases down after your range session is finished. it will make cleaning later on easier. 4. Make sure that you clean your revolver VERY well right after firing. The residue left behind is hydroscopic--attracts moisture. 5. Finally, it will be a good thing at the range to take a rag that you can dampen with soapy water. Periodically pull the cylinder and wipe down the front with the soapy water; follow that with a good oil. (Usually you would use absolutely NO petroleum products around black powder--however, since the cartridge is sealed it won't hurt. If you have any more questions, I highly recommend Buffalo Arms Company. They will help tremendously in all aspects of BP shooting. __________________ Hiding in plain sight...

August 3, 2012, 05:37 AM	#71
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Thanks Powderman I was at the blinkin Pass Pro Shop yesterday and was standing in front of the GOEX and Opted to leave it on the shelf. Oh Well. Can I get enough lube by using only the lube on the bullet or is it essential to use the wad too? If I use the wad is it essential to use a paper between the wad and the slug to make sure the wad separates from the slug? __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 3, 2012, 07:29 AM	#72
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,539	You don't have the lube requirements with 777 that you do real black. The one batch I tried worked fine with hard wax lubed smokeless bullets and cleaned up with clear water. I only load real black for single shot rifles. The blow tube or wiping rod keep the gun at stable condition for every shot.

August 3, 2012, 07:52 AM	#73
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	So Jim... ...It seems like you are saying I might could get away with not using the wad under the slug. Do I have that right? Tnx, __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.

August 3, 2012, 10:02 AM	#75
Doc Hoy Senior Member Join Date: October 24, 2008 Location: Naples, Fl Posts: 5,440	Tubular! I am going with it. I need the shell holder for the Auto-primer XR and I'll be rolling. __________________ Seek truth. Relax. Take a breath.