Mossberg 500 a cheaply made gun? use for truck gun?

9mm · August 26, 2012, 04:58 PM

My LGS has a Mossberg 500 combo w/2x barrels. For a decent price, I already own a 870 and its a very solid shotgun. The Mossberg just feels and looks cheap, no crome/metal lined barrel, the blued looks cheap on it. My 870 is park and makes it look "more solid". Also the Reciver is Alum not Metal like a 870.

Are they worth it? I could order one off the web but by the time I pay ship+ffl I am only looking at $20 difference or so. I saw another at a different gunshop for $30 more!

The other thing caught my eye was an RPK at another gun shop, for under $700 and that looks very cool.

house · August 26, 2012, 05:22 PM

I have had my mossberg 500 for over 13 years and shoots like new. It woud make a great truck gun. Smile has two barrels so I can hunt with one and shoot clays and change it over for self defense. You can't go wrong with 500.
The debate is kind of like ford vs Chevy
Remington 870 vs mossberg 500

Ethan.G · August 26, 2012, 05:38 PM

i like mossberg more Only because of the controls (safety and pump release) they are easier to reach for me

9mm · August 26, 2012, 05:42 PM

is it true these passed military testings? I didn't see the sticker on the stock but I seen them on others[online].

Lee Lapin · August 26, 2012, 08:06 PM

I'd say Mossberg 500s are inexpensive, but not cheap. There's a difference.

Aluminum is a metal

. True, the receiver on a M500 is not steel like an 870, but that matters little if at all. The bolt locks up into a steel barrel extension, and there shouldn't be anything that will wear the receiver in normal use. All the receiver does is hold parts in the proper relationship. The receiver on an AR-15 is aluminum also, and it's a rifle that works with much higher chamber pressures than any shotgun - but its bolt and barrel extension are steel, too. The aluminum receiver makes the M500 feel lighter than the 870.

If you like the combo, go for it. If you don't like it, let it go - it'll find a good home. The controls on the M500 are in different places, so you may have to think to use the gun, or shoot it enough to get used to it. I'd rather stick with one make/model except for experimenting etc - when it's serious i don't want to fumble for controls on an unfamiliar gun.

My go-to shotguns are all 870s, but there's nothing wrong with M500s other than their 'blind' magazine tubes - you have to remove the magazine tube from the receiver to clean it. Not so on the M590, which is the gun that was made to answer the military contract proposal that Mossberg won a couple of decades ago (guess who didn't submit samples, though

). The military required a pull-through cleanout capability on the magazine tube for the contract, though the various services have bought M500s from time to time since then as need arose.

jmr40 · August 26, 2012, 08:10 PM

The Mossberg was the only shotgun submitted for testing. It passed a test with the bar set pretty low.

When the military selects items they do not select the item that proves to be the best. They select the item that meets minimum standards that has the lowest price. There isn't a shotgun ever made that could not have passed the test. No one else submitted a gun because they already knew the Mossberg would win on price.

James K · August 26, 2012, 09:09 PM

That term "minimum standards" sounds pretty bad, as if anything that meets only some bare minimum is junk. Not true. The government sets its requirements (not "standards") in its Request for Proposal (RFP). When it receives proposals, a board evaluates them. Any proposal that does not meet requirements is rejected, period. If no proposals meet requirements, the RFP is cancelled and the government re-evaluates its RFP to see if it is asking too much, like a 2000 mph fighter plane that mounts a dozen 16-inch guns.

Those proposed products that meet requirements are then evaluated to see if any bidder has provided something innovative or superior. If a product is superior enough, cost (within reason) becomes irrelevant. If all the bids/products meet requirements and are roughly equal, then cost enters.

If a bid is accepted, and the product delivered, it is then tested according to the government's tests. If the product fails, the contractor can then correct it or be dropped and the next best bidder given a chance.

I do not know what the requirements were for a pump shotgun, but Mossberg had to meet them (not some mythical "minimum standard") in order for its bid to be accepted, even if there were no other bidders. Note that the material involved or the manufacturing process does not concern the government. A shotgun can be made from steel, aluminum, polymer or dried buffalo dung; if it meets the requirements, it is OK.

Jim

jmortimer · August 26, 2012, 09:26 PM

It is every bit as good as an 870. It is ignorant to suggest the Mossberg is "cheaply" made in comparison with current production 870 Express models. Here are some facts from the AimPro Tactical web site:

"There are many differences between Mossberg® pump action shotguns and other brands, some of the most notable are: Mossberg® receivers are aluminum alloy, other brands are usually steel. This makes the Mossberg lighter and easier to work on. (more on that later) Mossberg® 500/590 series shotguns have dual extractors, the competitors only have one. Twice the extraction power,means more reliable extraction. Mossberg® 500/590 series shotguns have an ambidextrous safety located on the top rear of the receiver. Right or left handed, strong or weak handed, the safety is always operated the same way. Other shotguns have cross-bolt safeties, OK for a right handed shooter pushing the safety off, but after that it means leaving the shooting grip every time you need to manipulate the cross-bolt safety. Not so with the Mossberg® ambidextrous safety, just grip the shotgun and you’re good to go, without ever changing your grip. Mossberg® 500/590 series shotguns have the Action Lock Lever, (other brands call it a “slide release”) at the rear of the trigger guard. This makes it ambidextrous also. The other guys’ “slide release” is at the front of the trigger guard, which means with theirs, you have to leave your shooting grip to get to it. Why is the Mossberg® receiver made of alloy instead of steel?The Mossberg® aluminum alloy receiver is easier and less expensive to make, lighter and easier to work on. For example, the Mossberg®magazine tube and ejector can be removed and replaced quickly with simple tools, unlike other shotguns, which are difficult to remove and require special tools. The secret to passing the 3000 rounds of high base buck shot reliability test is in the steel-on-steel lock-up of the full square cut Mossberg® bolt lock. Unlike other shotguns, which use an angled shoulder type bolt lock, the Mossberg® bolt lock is a completely through the barrel bolt locking system. The square cut bolt lock is captured in a square cut-out in the barrel, so at the time of firing, the strength of the steel-on steel lock-up is unsurpassed. Add the exclusive dual extractors for positive extraction and you have the answer to who makes the most durable and reliable fighting shotgun."

SHR970 · August 26, 2012, 09:30 PM

And let's not forget that the folks at Aberdeen can still add to the requirements list even if the product meets the requirements set forth in the RFP. They could state things like : requires chrome lined bore, forward assist capability, stock length of XX", etc.

TheKlawMan · August 26, 2012, 10:48 PM

Do you expect Aimpro to say, when all it builds are Mossbergs, "Their product is good but not as good as a Remington?"

Dr. Strangelove · August 26, 2012, 11:16 PM

I have quite a bit of experience with both and there isn't a nickels worth of difference between the two guns, though I do prefer the Mossberg safety position.

jmortimer · August 27, 2012, 12:00 AM

"Do you expect Aimpro to say, when all it builds are Mossbergs, "Their product is good but not as good as a Remington?"
It hurts to have someone in such close proximity be so wrong on this most important issue. You cling to your 870 and I'll cling to my 590.

jokester_143 · August 27, 2012, 12:19 AM

When I was deployed in 08-09 we used Mossberg 5's. Now where I work we use Remington 870s. The only reason I prefer Mossberg over Remington is the safety and slide release due to me being a southpaw.

mySig229 · August 27, 2012, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jmortimer

It is every bit as good as an 870. It is ignorant to suggest the Mossberg is "cheaply" made in comparison with current production 870 Express models. Here are some facts from the AimPro Tactical web site:

"There are many differences between Mossberg® pump action shotguns and other brands, some of the most notable are: Mossberg® receivers are aluminum alloy, other brands are usually steel. This makes the Mossberg lighter and easier to work on. (more on that later) Mossberg® 500/590 series shotguns have dual extractors, the competitors only have one. Twice the extraction power,means more reliable extraction. Mossberg® 500/590 series shotguns have an ambidextrous safety located on the top rear of the receiver. Right or left handed, strong or weak handed, the safety is always operated the same way. Other shotguns have cross-bolt safeties, OK for a right handed shooter pushing the safety off, but after that it means leaving the shooting grip every time you need to manipulate the cross-bolt safety. Not so with the Mossberg® ambidextrous safety, just grip the shotgun and you’re good to go, without ever changing your grip. Mossberg® 500/590 series shotguns have the Action Lock Lever, (other brands call it a “slide release”) at the rear of the trigger guard. This makes it ambidextrous also. The other guys’ “slide release” is at the front of the trigger guard, which means with theirs, you have to leave your shooting grip to get to it. Why is the Mossberg® receiver made of alloy instead of steel?The Mossberg® aluminum alloy receiver is easier and less expensive to make, lighter and easier to work on. For example, the Mossberg®magazine tube and ejector can be removed and replaced quickly with simple tools, unlike other shotguns, which are difficult to remove and require special tools. The secret to passing the 3000 rounds of high base buck shot reliability test is in the steel-on-steel lock-up of the full square cut Mossberg® bolt lock. Unlike other shotguns, which use an angled shoulder type bolt lock, the Mossberg® bolt lock is a completely through the barrel bolt locking system. The square cut bolt lock is captured in a square cut-out in the barrel, so at the time of firing, the strength of the steel-on steel lock-up is unsurpassed. Add the exclusive dual extractors for positive extraction and you have the answer to who makes the most durable and reliable fighting shotgun."

Great debate there. I agree that Mossberg makes a better shotgun for a lot of the same reasons mentioned.

Currently I don't even own a shot gun, sold mine awhile back. Kinda hard to pass up a $400 profit! But, I've used some Remington's in the past and they did feel stout...but, the biggest reason I don't like them is that I had a recent encounter with I believe a 870 tactical? Had a rail on top of the receiver...anyway, I was out shooting with a buddy and a few guys next to us were throwing clay pigeons. They asked if I wanted to join in. Sure, been awhile for me. They handed me the guys pride and joy 870...and honestly I can't tell you how many FTE's and bolt jams. The bolt wouldn't open, wouldn't close etc...I've shot Mossbergs that were god knows how old and literally never had a single problem.

Keep in mind I'm not trying to pee in anyone's corn flakes, I'm just sharing my experience in this matter

Slugo · August 27, 2012, 04:10 AM

a very well Made in USA inexpensive shotgun. Hard to go wrong...

dos0711 · August 27, 2012, 04:23 AM

Years of real world testimony tells you it will get the job done...

WV_gunner · August 27, 2012, 08:41 AM

Nothing wrong with Mossberg shotguns. Alot of people tend to cling to a gun and think it's the best and everything else is junk. in reality their gun isn't any better. Most guns offer the same reliability as others. It's just how it fits you is the important part. Doesn't matter if it's a $40 gun or a $4000 gun, if it's what you like then that's all that matters.

Chuckusaret · August 27, 2012, 09:04 AM

I used several different makes of shotguns while in Vietnam, but mostly the Mossberg 500, the ideal short range jungle weapon. Mostly loaded with military buck shot and on occassion slugs. Based on my actual use of the 500 against the bad guys it will far surpass the requirements for a HD shotgun at a very reasonable cost.

KevK. · August 27, 2012, 09:36 AM

They do make a parkerized Mossberg 500 and 590, just because that model isn't doesn't really mean anything.

Both are great shotguns.

James K · August 27, 2012, 10:00 AM

Hi, SHR70,

The testers can't add to the requirements without the CO/KO issuing an amended RFP and giving the other bidders (and new bidders) a chance to recompete on the new terms. They can allow the bidder to do things like replace failed parts, but the failure counts against them.

Jim

Chuckusaret · August 27, 2012, 10:33 AM

Bottom line is that the bidder that meets or exceeds the requirements of the RFP with the cheapest bid price will get the contract. Case in point; the Army replaced their OH6 helicopter fleet with the Bell Jet Ranger even though the OH6 was proven in service testing and in combat to be a better choice only because Bell low balled their bid price for each aircraft.

TheKlawMan · August 28, 2012, 12:33 PM

Quote:

"Do you expect Aimpro to say, when all it builds are Mossbergs, "Their product is good but not as good as a Remington?"
It hurts to have someone in such close proximity be so wrong on this most important issue. You cling to your 870 and I'll cling to my 590.

No one here is clinging to anything, but merely pointing out that a company that only sells customized Chevys isn't likely to be objective about Fords.

graysmoke · August 28, 2012, 02:24 PM

I prefer the older Mossbergs that were manufactured in the early 60's.
The quality was equal to others....

scottd913 · August 28, 2012, 07:57 PM

Mossberg makes a fine shotgun for an inexpensive price by an American company who knows the value of yours and my money and aren't greedy for every dime they can squeeze out of us. also they are made with parts made in America and one of very few things you can find in wal-mart that is. they also pay there employees a fare wage! i have only handled a few rem's to i have no opinion on that ....MY TWO CENTS

g.willikers · August 29, 2012, 09:26 AM

The gun is the least of it.
If I didn't already have a tag line, that would be it.

August 26, 2012, 04:58 PM	#1
9mm Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2011 Location: Land of the Free Posts: 2,834	Mossberg 500 a cheaply made gun? use for truck gun? My LGS has a Mossberg 500 combo w/2x barrels. For a decent price, I already own a 870 and its a very solid shotgun. The Mossberg just feels and looks cheap, no crome/metal lined barrel, the blued looks cheap on it. My 870 is park and makes it look "more solid". Also the Reciver is Alum not Metal like a 870. Are they worth it? I could order one off the web but by the time I pay ship+ffl I am only looking at $20 difference or so. I saw another at a different gunshop for $30 more! The other thing caught my eye was an RPK at another gun shop, for under $700 and that looks very cool.

August 26, 2012, 08:06 PM	#5
Lee Lapin Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2004 Location: SE NC Posts: 1,239	I'd say Mossberg 500s are inexpensive, but not cheap. There's a difference. Aluminum is a metal . True, the receiver on a M500 is not steel like an 870, but that matters little if at all. The bolt locks up into a steel barrel extension, and there shouldn't be anything that will wear the receiver in normal use. All the receiver does is hold parts in the proper relationship. The receiver on an AR-15 is aluminum also, and it's a rifle that works with much higher chamber pressures than any shotgun - but its bolt and barrel extension are steel, too. The aluminum receiver makes the M500 feel lighter than the 870. If you like the combo, go for it. If you don't like it, let it go - it'll find a good home. The controls on the M500 are in different places, so you may have to think to use the gun, or shoot it enough to get used to it. I'd rather stick with one make/model except for experimenting etc - when it's serious i don't want to fumble for controls on an unfamiliar gun. My go-to shotguns are all 870s, but there's nothing wrong with M500s other than their 'blind' magazine tubes - you have to remove the magazine tube from the receiver to clean it. Not so on the M590, which is the gun that was made to answer the military contract proposal that Mossberg won a couple of decades ago (guess who didn't submit samples, though ). The military required a pull-through cleanout capability on the magazine tube for the contract, though the various services have bought M500s from time to time since then as need arose. __________________ Mindset - Skillset - Toolset. In that order! Attitude and skill will get you through times of no gear, better than gear will get you through times of no attitude and no skill.

August 26, 2012, 11:16 PM	#11
Dr. Strangelove Senior Member Join Date: August 1, 2008 Location: Athens, GA Posts: 1,436	I have quite a bit of experience with both and there isn't a nickels worth of difference between the two guns, though I do prefer the Mossberg safety position. __________________ Just remember, when you pull the trigger, the bullets come out going very, very fast. So make sure to keep the weapon pointing away from you.

August 27, 2012, 12:19 AM	#13
jokester_143 Senior Member Join Date: May 13, 2010 Location: Montana Posts: 135	When I was deployed in 08-09 we used Mossberg 5's. Now where I work we use Remington 870s. The only reason I prefer Mossberg over Remington is the safety and slide release due to me being a southpaw. __________________ M&P 15, XD:M .40cal, Mossberg 500 with Knox tactical stock and now also a XD:M 3.8 in .40cal...

August 27, 2012, 09:36 AM	#19
KevK. Senior Member Join Date: May 1, 2012 Posts: 137	They do make a parkerized Mossberg 500 and 590, just because that model isn't doesn't really mean anything. Both are great shotguns. __________________ CZ82, S&W Mod. 65 .357, Marlin 22mn (22WMR), Mossberg 500.

August 26, 2012, 05:22 PM	#2
house Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1999 Location: AZ/CA Posts: 369	I have had my mossberg 500 for over 13 years and shoots like new. It woud make a great truck gun. Smile has two barrels so I can hunt with one and shoot clays and change it over for self defense. You can't go wrong with 500. The debate is kind of like ford vs Chevy Remington 870 vs mossberg 500

August 26, 2012, 05:38 PM	#3
Ethan.G Senior Member Join Date: March 13, 2012 Posts: 127	i like mossberg more Only because of the controls (safety and pump release) they are easier to reach for me

August 26, 2012, 05:42 PM	#4
9mm Senior Member Join Date: January 9, 2011 Location: Land of the Free Posts: 2,834	is it true these passed military testings? I didn't see the sticker on the stock but I seen them on others[online].

August 26, 2012, 08:10 PM	#6
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,808	The Mossberg was the only shotgun submitted for testing. It passed a test with the bar set pretty low. When the military selects items they do not select the item that proves to be the best. They select the item that meets minimum standards that has the lowest price. There isn't a shotgun ever made that could not have passed the test. No one else submitted a gun because they already knew the Mossberg would win on price.

August 26, 2012, 09:09 PM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	That term "minimum standards" sounds pretty bad, as if anything that meets only some bare minimum is junk. Not true. The government sets its requirements (not "standards") in its Request for Proposal (RFP). When it receives proposals, a board evaluates them. Any proposal that does not meet requirements is rejected, period. If no proposals meet requirements, the RFP is cancelled and the government re-evaluates its RFP to see if it is asking too much, like a 2000 mph fighter plane that mounts a dozen 16-inch guns. Those proposed products that meet requirements are then evaluated to see if any bidder has provided something innovative or superior. If a product is superior enough, cost (within reason) becomes irrelevant. If all the bids/products meet requirements and are roughly equal, then cost enters. If a bid is accepted, and the product delivered, it is then tested according to the government's tests. If the product fails, the contractor can then correct it or be dropped and the next best bidder given a chance. I do not know what the requirements were for a pump shotgun, but Mossberg had to meet them (not some mythical "minimum standard") in order for its bid to be accepted, even if there were no other bidders. Note that the material involved or the manufacturing process does not concern the government. A shotgun can be made from steel, aluminum, polymer or dried buffalo dung; if it meets the requirements, it is OK. Jim

August 26, 2012, 09:26 PM	#8
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	It is every bit as good as an 870. It is ignorant to suggest the Mossberg is "cheaply" made in comparison with current production 870 Express models. Here are some facts from the AimPro Tactical web site: "There are many differences between Mossberg® pump action shotguns and other brands, some of the most notable are: Mossberg® receivers are aluminum alloy, other brands are usually steel. This makes the Mossberg lighter and easier to work on. (more on that later) Mossberg® 500/590 series shotguns have dual extractors, the competitors only have one. Twice the extraction power,means more reliable extraction. Mossberg® 500/590 series shotguns have an ambidextrous safety located on the top rear of the receiver. Right or left handed, strong or weak handed, the safety is always operated the same way. Other shotguns have cross-bolt safeties, OK for a right handed shooter pushing the safety off, but after that it means leaving the shooting grip every time you need to manipulate the cross-bolt safety. Not so with the Mossberg® ambidextrous safety, just grip the shotgun and you’re good to go, without ever changing your grip. Mossberg® 500/590 series shotguns have the Action Lock Lever, (other brands call it a “slide release”) at the rear of the trigger guard. This makes it ambidextrous also. The other guys’ “slide release” is at the front of the trigger guard, which means with theirs, you have to leave your shooting grip to get to it. Why is the Mossberg® receiver made of alloy instead of steel?The Mossberg® aluminum alloy receiver is easier and less expensive to make, lighter and easier to work on. For example, the Mossberg®magazine tube and ejector can be removed and replaced quickly with simple tools, unlike other shotguns, which are difficult to remove and require special tools. The secret to passing the 3000 rounds of high base buck shot reliability test is in the steel-on-steel lock-up of the full square cut Mossberg® bolt lock. Unlike other shotguns, which use an angled shoulder type bolt lock, the Mossberg® bolt lock is a completely through the barrel bolt locking system. The square cut bolt lock is captured in a square cut-out in the barrel, so at the time of firing, the strength of the steel-on steel lock-up is unsurpassed. Add the exclusive dual extractors for positive extraction and you have the answer to who makes the most durable and reliable fighting shotgun."

August 26, 2012, 09:30 PM	#9
SHR970 Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2011 Posts: 1,427	And let's not forget that the folks at Aberdeen can still add to the requirements list even if the product meets the requirements set forth in the RFP. They could state things like : requires chrome lined bore, forward assist capability, stock length of XX", etc.

August 26, 2012, 10:48 PM	#10
TheKlawMan Junior member Join Date: June 23, 2009 Location: Orange County, CA Posts: 2,149	Do you expect Aimpro to say, when all it builds are Mossbergs, "Their product is good but not as good as a Remington?"

August 27, 2012, 12:00 AM	#12
jmortimer Junior member Join Date: January 24, 2010 Location: South West Riverside County California Posts: 2,763	"Do you expect Aimpro to say, when all it builds are Mossbergs, "Their product is good but not as good as a Remington?" It hurts to have someone in such close proximity be so wrong on this most important issue. You cling to your 870 and I'll cling to my 590.

August 27, 2012, 04:10 AM	#15
Slugo Junior member Join Date: September 15, 2001 Location: Central PA Posts: 1,007	a very well Made in USA inexpensive shotgun. Hard to go wrong...

August 27, 2012, 04:23 AM	#16
dos0711 Senior Member Join Date: April 3, 2012 Location: Northeast, Fl Posts: 254	Years of real world testimony tells you it will get the job done...

August 27, 2012, 08:41 AM	#17
WV_gunner Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2011 Location: WV Posts: 938	Nothing wrong with Mossberg shotguns. Alot of people tend to cling to a gun and think it's the best and everything else is junk. in reality their gun isn't any better. Most guns offer the same reliability as others. It's just how it fits you is the important part. Doesn't matter if it's a $40 gun or a $4000 gun, if it's what you like then that's all that matters.

August 27, 2012, 09:04 AM	#18
Chuckusaret Junior member Join Date: December 5, 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 708	I used several different makes of shotguns while in Vietnam, but mostly the Mossberg 500, the ideal short range jungle weapon. Mostly loaded with military buck shot and on occassion slugs. Based on my actual use of the 500 against the bad guys it will far surpass the requirements for a HD shotgun at a very reasonable cost.

August 27, 2012, 10:00 AM	#20
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, SHR70, The testers can't add to the requirements without the CO/KO issuing an amended RFP and giving the other bidders (and new bidders) a chance to recompete on the new terms. They can allow the bidder to do things like replace failed parts, but the failure counts against them. Jim

August 27, 2012, 10:33 AM	#21
Chuckusaret Junior member Join Date: December 5, 2008 Location: Florida Posts: 708	Bottom line is that the bidder that meets or exceeds the requirements of the RFP with the cheapest bid price will get the contract. Case in point; the Army replaced their OH6 helicopter fleet with the Bell Jet Ranger even though the OH6 was proven in service testing and in combat to be a better choice only because Bell low balled their bid price for each aircraft.

August 28, 2012, 02:24 PM	#23
graysmoke Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2011 Location: Tennessee Posts: 378	I prefer the older Mossbergs that were manufactured in the early 60's. The quality was equal to others.... __________________ "Keep your powder dry, and eyes on the target". -R. Lee Ermey

August 28, 2012, 07:57 PM	#24
scottd913 Senior Member Join Date: April 23, 2012 Location: Texas ... north of houston, east of el paso Posts: 214	Mossberg makes a fine shotgun for an inexpensive price by an American company who knows the value of yours and my money and aren't greedy for every dime they can squeeze out of us. also they are made with parts made in America and one of very few things you can find in wal-mart that is. they also pay there employees a fare wage! i have only handled a few rem's to i have no opinion on that ....MY TWO CENTS

August 29, 2012, 09:26 AM	#25
g.willikers Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2008 Posts: 10,442	The gun is the least of it. If I didn't already have a tag line, that would be it. __________________ Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez: “Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”