Why no Winchesters?

posigian · June 1, 2000, 09:21 AM

I am curious! Why is there never any talk about Winchester shotguns?

Whenever there is talk about self defense all you hear about is the the 870s & 11-87s.

They are good guns, but I wounder, is there some defect with Winchesters? Or is it just the fact that Remington is a more popular name.

I have a Win. 1300 pump with a Chote Mark5 pistol grip stock. The chote stock tricks it out real nice and I have always been a big fan of the bolt design of the Winchester shotguns. Closest thing to a semi-auto in a pump!

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Posigian
[email protected]
I AM THE NRA

[This message has been edited by posigian (edited June 01, 2000).]

Dave McC · June 1, 2000, 09:44 AM

I've little experience with the 1300, and 40 years worth with the 870,Posigian. So, I go with what I know.

One student had one, and I shot same. No problems to report, once we got rid of that PG.Too many action movies are counter productive to good training.

If the 1300 works for you 100%, go with it.

jthuang · June 1, 2000, 10:37 AM

Nothing wrong with the 1300 Defender. A buddy of mine uses one in the local steel and IPSC Three Gun matches (gonna do one more this Sunday, incidentally).

I really like the fiber optic front sight -- it may not be as durable as the standard metal bead but it's very nice.

I also like the placement of the slide release. Same place as on a Mossberg 500/590.

Justin

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Justin T. Huang, Esq.
late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

posigian · June 1, 2000, 11:08 AM

Like I said before I really liked the bolt design on the 1300 pump.

A couple of years ago I bought a 1300 with a composite stock & a 26" vented rib barrel.

Its main purpose was turkey hunting until I decided to use my 20 ga for turkey. So I modified my 12ga for home defense.

I had the barrel cut to 20" and added the Choate stock with pistol grip. Now it makes for a good home piece!

June 1, 2000, 11:16 AM

How do you get to the action release with the PG stock? The only 1300 I ever handled had a PG stock, and the PG completely blocked access to the release. There was no way to reach behind the trigger guard without going completely around the PG.

posigian · June 1, 2000, 11:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jeff, CA:
How do you get to the action release with the PG stock? The only 1300 I ever handled had a PG stock, and the PG completely blocked access to the release. There was no way to reach behind the trigger guard without going completely around the PG.[/quote]

Well.....hhhmmmmm! My PG doesnt block it so much. Yeah, normally I would reach under the regular (issued) stock to reach the release. But I now take my right hand off of the PG reaching over the top of the stock with my thumb. Or I can reach it from under the PG\trigger gaurd. Not sure if that answers it for you. All I know is I have played with it enough at the range that I have a system that works I guess.

Good Question!

Oleg Volk · June 1, 2000, 12:19 PM

I use my 20ga 1300 for trap shooting (up to 22 of 25 after barely breaking 2 in 25 before). It had to go back to the factory at once: rough chamber meant no extraction. Once back, it has been very reliable...wonder if anyone makes a heat shield for it? I got it so hot during trap shooting that I was seriously worried about cooking off shells in the chamber. Fiberoptic sight helps...and if it ever breaks, the regular bead is just ahead of it.

I also found that 20ga buckshot isn't that great a round...

posigian · June 1, 2000, 12:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
I use my 20ga 1300 for trap shooting (up to 22 of 25 after barely breaking 2 in 25 before). It had to go back to the factory at once: rough chamber meant no extraction.[/quote]

Rought Chamber and no extraction? Can you explain to me what happen? I think that is the same thing that happen to me with my 12ga.

I was firing 2 3\4" slugs and none of them ejected properly. The ejector claw was tearing the brass and leaving the empty cartridge in the chamber. So I took it to the smith and he claimed there was a burr in the chamber and he polished everything up.

Makes me wounder if there is a problem with the Winchester barrels?

So what happen with yours?

June 1, 2000, 12:53 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk:
wonder if anyone makes a heat shield for it? I got it so hot during trap shooting that I was seriously worried about cooking off shells in the chamber. [/quote]

I'm not sure a heat shield would help, and it might make it worse. A heat shield is intended to protect your hand from the hot barrel, rather than to help cool the barrel. It might actually trap a layer of hot air against the barrel, which would make the barrel hotter, sooner.

FWIW, I have a colleague (ex-National Guard) that had an M2(?) go into cookoff mode during a demonstration (incompetent officer playing with it), and he said the barrel was red hot. You'd have to do an awful lot of rapid fire with a shotgun to get to that state.

Oleg Volk · June 1, 2000, 01:33 PM

Not to mention that the ounce of lead would absorb some of the head and it is separated from the powder and primer with poorly conducting plastic shell and wad. I fired about a hundred rounds in half an hour to make the barrel too hot to touch. I might forgo the heat shield as I prefer my shotgun stock: it is a learning tool for figuring out the "generic pump". I obviously do need training from a professional and hope to get that this summer (anyone in the metro area you recommend)?

As for the burr in the chamber, that was *exactly* the culprit. I took the gun apart prior to buying it yet still misssed the flaw. Now that it is fixed, I enjoy it and am so glad I did not get a 12ga (though 20ga ammo is less available and is more costly).

BTW, I suspect the reason why few shotguns shots are ever fired in confrontations is for the same reason that few derringer shots are fired: recoil hurts

[This message has been edited by Oleg Volk (edited June 01, 2000).]

Unkel Gilbey · June 1, 2000, 03:11 PM

I have a 1300 (12 ga - 3") that I've had for about 17 years. Winchokes, and a vent rib. Sweet - and although replacement Bbl's are a bit pricey and tough to find - I think the only thing that could induce me to part with her would be a good deal on a M37 Ithaca.

Here's an idea about the heat issue. Keep the slide (action) open in between shots. This will allow a bit of cross ventilation and hopefully keep the temp down.

Another thing that I really like about the Winchester is the ease in which the Bbl can be removed. This makes cleaning a snap, AND makes hiding it that much easier. These are major selling (and keeping) points in my book.

BTW, if anyone has a Win1300 Slug Bbl (12 Ga - 3") that they don't know what to do with, give me a ring!

Unkel Gilbey

Oleg Volk · June 1, 2000, 04:08 PM

I bought it based on 1)handling 2)ease of maintenance 4) truglo sight already installed 3)capacity.

Keeping the bolt open is not a solution, unfortunately, as I am no longer even aware of having cycled the action immediately upon firing. I also got to topping off the magazine pretty much immediately after firing at a clay or two.

My one big complaint about tube-fed arms is the difficulty of ascertaining the number of remaining rounds.

SpoiledBySig · June 1, 2000, 10:08 PM

I just purchased a NIB Winchester 1300 defender, 12 Gauge from another Officer about 3 weeks ago. I have an Ithaca Model 37 deerslayer, and My son just bought a Mossberg Parkerized 590A 9 shot 12 gauge w/ heatshield about 3 months ago. My Winchester holds 8 shots. I always wanted a Winchester again...and now I have it! For duty I have a S&W 3000 ( a Xerox of the 870 remington ).

All 4 brands- Remington, Ithaca, Winchester and Mossberg are just great, great, Pump shotguns. Which is the best?...That's really up to the buyer/owner.

If I really could have what I want, it would be the Winchester 1897 model 12 Gauge I had as a teen.

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Dave McC · June 2, 2000, 01:40 PM

Spoiled, if I saw a non-junked Model 97 in any gauge,I'd snap it up faster than Rosie O would a donut.

If one has ever worn out,other than from abuse and neglect, I've not heard of it.

One of the early trick shots, like Bogardus, Butler or Oakley put over 100,000 rounds through a 97. Total repairs and replaced parts, new springs,installed as preventative maintenance.

Plus, like all of John Browning's designs, it's a pleasure to shoot.

house · June 2, 2000, 02:29 PM

Winchester model 12 for trap shooting What a GUN!!!!!!

Oleg Volk · June 2, 2000, 02:46 PM

19 or every 20 shotguns I see around the trap shoots here are riot guns...very few "hunting" shotguns and hardly any doubles at all. Guess trap shooting isn't an end in itself, just a way to get better for fighting or hunting.

dundee · June 2, 2000, 10:33 PM

I saw a model 97 just yesterday at a local gun shop. They wanted $300 for it. I didn't look carefully but it seem to be all original except the recoil pad. If anyone is interested email me and I will check it out more carefully or get you the phone# / address of the gun shop

1911 · June 3, 2000, 01:23 AM

The Winchester 1300 Defender is my favorite tactical shotgun, one sleeps under my bed, (I have a choice of every American, & Italian combat shotgun made in the vault plus around twenty others). I've really come to trust them, the one that lives under my bed has a Choate top-folder, never had any trouble reaching the safety. Operating the action admittedly isn't quite as "silky" as an 870, but my 1300 "pops" open, & starts the action back upon firing. If you hold onto the stock only, & fire, the fore-grip springs back about three, to five inches (a simi-auto wannabe

). I like that, I'm able to shoot quite a bit faster than any other pump I own. learned on a model 12, & used it for so many years (decades) that I got very familiar with them, hence faster.

[This message has been edited by 1911 (edited June 03, 2000).]

Matt19 · June 3, 2000, 11:31 AM

I have found the Winchester 1300 to be very reliable. I keep mine close by as a home defense weapon.

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It is the people who are prisoners of their own ignorance about firearms that pose the greatest threat to our 2nd Amendment Rights.

plateshooter · June 3, 2000, 08:58 PM

One more 1300 fan here. I use mine for IDPA side matches, plates, and sporting clays on occasion. No complaints at all.

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Good shootin to ya
Plateshooter

Dave T · June 4, 2000, 11:11 PM

You don't hear about Winchesters in relation to selfdefense because Winchester quit making the Model 12. I had a Model 12 riot gun for a while in Viet Nam. I did not feel unarmed in any way.

An earlier post mentioned the 97. That one works too!

Dave T

Bulldog · June 4, 2000, 11:13 PM

I had a 1300 Defender, and I liked it. It was light, quick-handling, and had a really slick action, but my 10-year-old Mossberg 500 seems to be a bit more versatile for my purposes.

------------------
¡Viva la RKBA!
Bulldawg: NRA, GOA, TSRA, Shiner Bock Connoisseur.
Bulldawg's Firearms Page

Bam Bam · June 5, 2000, 07:35 PM

Have used a Black Shadow Turkey for trap and like it a lot. I think the one difference is that to take off the forend on the 1300 you have to remove the trigger assembly assembly first. On the Rem you just reach in there with your finger and push in the slide latch and the bolt comes out and forend slides out. I like the Win 1300 action. To me it is beautiful and elegant, the Rem is nice too, Mossberg doesn't rate in comparison.

Well, probably price is the reason you see more Rems than Wins. But probably Win 1300s outsell Wingmasters.

Dave McC · June 6, 2000, 05:55 AM

I don't recall the source, but I remember that the 870 is the shotgun most units of have been produced. Others in the top 5 were the Ithaca 37, Winchesters 97 and 12, and the nigh infinite number of variations of the old H&R single bbl now made and sold by NEF.

RedCrosse · June 6, 2000, 08:58 AM

I've got a 1300 as well, and really love it. If you'll remember a line of posts not too long ago about a shell being able to be "shaken" out when the shotgun is held on its right side? A couple of guys said, and I have gound this to be true with mine as well that the 1300 held on to the shell being chambered. I couldn't shake it out at all. This is another good point about the 1300!

June 1, 2000, 11:32 AM	#6
posigian Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Location: Great Lakes State Posts: 115	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff, CA: How do you get to the action release with the PG stock? The only 1300 I ever handled had a PG stock, and the PG completely blocked access to the release. There was no way to reach behind the trigger guard without going completely around the PG.[/quote] Well.....hhhmmmmm! My PG doesnt block it so much. Yeah, normally I would reach under the regular (issued) stock to reach the release. But I now take my right hand off of the PG reaching over the top of the stock with my thumb. Or I can reach it from under the PG\trigger gaurd. Not sure if that answers it for you. All I know is I have played with it enough at the range that I have a system that works I guess. Good Question!

June 1, 2000, 12:28 PM	#8
posigian Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Location: Great Lakes State Posts: 115	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk: I use my 20ga 1300 for trap shooting (up to 22 of 25 after barely breaking 2 in 25 before). It had to go back to the factory at once: rough chamber meant no extraction.[/quote] Rought Chamber and no extraction? Can you explain to me what happen? I think that is the same thing that happen to me with my 12ga. I was firing 2 3\4" slugs and none of them ejected properly. The ejector claw was tearing the brass and leaving the empty cartridge in the chamber. So I took it to the smith and he claimed there was a burr in the chamber and he polished everything up. Makes me wounder if there is a problem with the Winchester barrels? So what happen with yours?

June 1, 2000, 12:53 PM	#9
Jeff, CA Guest Posts: n/a	<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg Volk: wonder if anyone makes a heat shield for it? I got it so hot during trap shooting that I was seriously worried about cooking off shells in the chamber. [/quote] I'm not sure a heat shield would help, and it might make it worse. A heat shield is intended to protect your hand from the hot barrel, rather than to help cool the barrel. It might actually trap a layer of hot air against the barrel, which would make the barrel hotter, sooner. FWIW, I have a colleague (ex-National Guard) that had an M2(?) go into cookoff mode during a demonstration (incompetent officer playing with it), and he said the barrel was red hot. You'd have to do an awful lot of rapid fire with a shotgun to get to that state.

June 1, 2000, 09:21 AM	#1
posigian Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Location: Great Lakes State Posts: 115	I am curious! Why is there never any talk about Winchester shotguns? Whenever there is talk about self defense all you hear about is the the 870s & 11-87s. They are good guns, but I wounder, is there some defect with Winchesters? Or is it just the fact that Remington is a more popular name. I have a Win. 1300 pump with a Chote Mark5 pistol grip stock. The chote stock tricks it out real nice and I have always been a big fan of the bolt design of the Winchester shotguns. Closest thing to a semi-auto in a pump! ------------------ Posigian [email protected] I AM THE NRA [This message has been edited by posigian (edited June 01, 2000).]

June 1, 2000, 09:44 AM	#2
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I've little experience with the 1300, and 40 years worth with the 870,Posigian. So, I go with what I know. One student had one, and I shot same. No problems to report, once we got rid of that PG.Too many action movies are counter productive to good training. If the 1300 works for you 100%, go with it.

June 1, 2000, 10:37 AM	#3
jthuang Senior Member Join Date: January 21, 2000 Posts: 823	Nothing wrong with the 1300 Defender. A buddy of mine uses one in the local steel and IPSC Three Gun matches (gonna do one more this Sunday, incidentally). I really like the fiber optic front sight -- it may not be as durable as the standard metal bead but it's very nice. I also like the placement of the slide release. Same place as on a Mossberg 500/590. Justin ------------------ Justin T. Huang, Esq. late of Kennett Square, Pennsylvania

June 1, 2000, 11:08 AM	#4
posigian Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2000 Location: Great Lakes State Posts: 115	Like I said before I really liked the bolt design on the 1300 pump. A couple of years ago I bought a 1300 with a composite stock & a 26" vented rib barrel. Its main purpose was turkey hunting until I decided to use my 20 ga for turkey. So I modified my 12ga for home defense. I had the barrel cut to 20" and added the Choate stock with pistol grip. Now it makes for a good home piece!

June 1, 2000, 11:16 AM	#5
Jeff, CA Guest Posts: n/a	How do you get to the action release with the PG stock? The only 1300 I ever handled had a PG stock, and the PG completely blocked access to the release. There was no way to reach behind the trigger guard without going completely around the PG.

June 1, 2000, 12:19 PM	#7
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	I use my 20ga 1300 for trap shooting (up to 22 of 25 after barely breaking 2 in 25 before). It had to go back to the factory at once: rough chamber meant no extraction. Once back, it has been very reliable...wonder if anyone makes a heat shield for it? I got it so hot during trap shooting that I was seriously worried about cooking off shells in the chamber. Fiberoptic sight helps...and if it ever breaks, the regular bead is just ahead of it. I also found that 20ga buckshot isn't that great a round...

June 1, 2000, 01:33 PM	#10
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	Not to mention that the ounce of lead would absorb some of the head and it is separated from the powder and primer with poorly conducting plastic shell and wad. I fired about a hundred rounds in half an hour to make the barrel too hot to touch. I might forgo the heat shield as I prefer my shotgun stock: it is a learning tool for figuring out the "generic pump". I obviously do need training from a professional and hope to get that this summer (anyone in the metro area you recommend)? As for the burr in the chamber, that was exactly the culprit. I took the gun apart prior to buying it yet still misssed the flaw. Now that it is fixed, I enjoy it and am so glad I did not get a 12ga (though 20ga ammo is less available and is more costly). BTW, I suspect the reason why few shotguns shots are ever fired in confrontations is for the same reason that few derringer shots are fired: recoil hurts [This message has been edited by Oleg Volk (edited June 01, 2000).]

June 1, 2000, 03:11 PM	#11
Unkel Gilbey Senior Member Join Date: February 26, 1999 Location: Danby, Vermont Posts: 349	I have a 1300 (12 ga - 3") that I've had for about 17 years. Winchokes, and a vent rib. Sweet - and although replacement Bbl's are a bit pricey and tough to find - I think the only thing that could induce me to part with her would be a good deal on a M37 Ithaca. Here's an idea about the heat issue. Keep the slide (action) open in between shots. This will allow a bit of cross ventilation and hopefully keep the temp down. Another thing that I really like about the Winchester is the ease in which the Bbl can be removed. This makes cleaning a snap, AND makes hiding it that much easier. These are major selling (and keeping) points in my book. BTW, if anyone has a Win1300 Slug Bbl (12 Ga - 3") that they don't know what to do with, give me a ring! Unkel Gilbey

June 1, 2000, 04:08 PM	#12
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	I bought it based on 1)handling 2)ease of maintenance 4) truglo sight already installed 3)capacity. Keeping the bolt open is not a solution, unfortunately, as I am no longer even aware of having cycled the action immediately upon firing. I also got to topping off the magazine pretty much immediately after firing at a clay or two. My one big complaint about tube-fed arms is the difficulty of ascertaining the number of remaining rounds.

June 1, 2000, 10:08 PM	#13
SpoiledBySig Junior Member Join Date: April 2, 2000 Posts: 7	I just purchased a NIB Winchester 1300 defender, 12 Gauge from another Officer about 3 weeks ago. I have an Ithaca Model 37 deerslayer, and My son just bought a Mossberg Parkerized 590A 9 shot 12 gauge w/ heatshield about 3 months ago. My Winchester holds 8 shots. I always wanted a Winchester again...and now I have it! For duty I have a S&W 3000 ( a Xerox of the 870 remington ). All 4 brands- Remington, Ithaca, Winchester and Mossberg are just great, great, Pump shotguns. Which is the best?...That's really up to the buyer/owner. If I really could have what I want, it would be the Winchester 1897 model 12 Gauge I had as a teen. ------------------

June 2, 2000, 01:40 PM	#14
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	Spoiled, if I saw a non-junked Model 97 in any gauge,I'd snap it up faster than Rosie O would a donut. If one has ever worn out,other than from abuse and neglect, I've not heard of it. One of the early trick shots, like Bogardus, Butler or Oakley put over 100,000 rounds through a 97. Total repairs and replaced parts, new springs,installed as preventative maintenance. Plus, like all of John Browning's designs, it's a pleasure to shoot.

June 2, 2000, 02:29 PM	#15
house Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1999 Location: AZ/CA Posts: 369	Winchester model 12 for trap shooting What a GUN!!!!!!

June 2, 2000, 02:46 PM	#16
Oleg Volk Staff Alumnus Join Date: December 6, 1999 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 7,022	19 or every 20 shotguns I see around the trap shoots here are riot guns...very few "hunting" shotguns and hardly any doubles at all. Guess trap shooting isn't an end in itself, just a way to get better for fighting or hunting.

June 2, 2000, 10:33 PM	#17
dundee Senior Member Join Date: December 6, 1998 Location: mytown,mi,usa Posts: 162	I saw a model 97 just yesterday at a local gun shop. They wanted $300 for it. I didn't look carefully but it seem to be all original except the recoil pad. If anyone is interested email me and I will check it out more carefully or get you the phone# / address of the gun shop

June 3, 2000, 01:23 AM	#18
1911 Member Join Date: June 1, 2000 Posts: 30	The Winchester 1300 Defender is my favorite tactical shotgun, one sleeps under my bed, (I have a choice of every American, & Italian combat shotgun made in the vault plus around twenty others). I've really come to trust them, the one that lives under my bed has a Choate top-folder, never had any trouble reaching the safety. Operating the action admittedly isn't quite as "silky" as an 870, but my 1300 "pops" open, & starts the action back upon firing. If you hold onto the stock only, & fire, the fore-grip springs back about three, to five inches (a simi-auto wannabe ). I like that, I'm able to shoot quite a bit faster than any other pump I own. learned on a model 12, & used it for so many years (decades) that I got very familiar with them, hence faster. [This message has been edited by 1911 (edited June 03, 2000).]

June 3, 2000, 11:31 AM	#19
Matt19 Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 1999 Posts: 315	I have found the Winchester 1300 to be very reliable. I keep mine close by as a home defense weapon. ------------------ It is the people who are prisoners of their own ignorance about firearms that pose the greatest threat to our 2nd Amendment Rights.

June 3, 2000, 08:58 PM	#20
plateshooter Senior Member Join Date: September 29, 1999 Location: N.E. Ohio Posts: 522	One more 1300 fan here. I use mine for IDPA side matches, plates, and sporting clays on occasion. No complaints at all. ------------------ Good shootin to ya Plateshooter

June 4, 2000, 11:11 PM	#21
Dave T Senior Member Join Date: April 16, 2000 Location: Mesa, Arizona Posts: 1,456	You don't hear about Winchesters in relation to selfdefense because Winchester quit making the Model 12. I had a Model 12 riot gun for a while in Viet Nam. I did not feel unarmed in any way. An earlier post mentioned the 97. That one works too! Dave T

June 4, 2000, 11:13 PM	#22
Bulldog Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 1999 Location: Texas Posts: 564	I had a 1300 Defender, and I liked it. It was light, quick-handling, and had a really slick action, but my 10-year-old Mossberg 500 seems to be a bit more versatile for my purposes. ------------------ ¡Viva la RKBA! Bulldawg: NRA, GOA, TSRA, Shiner Bock Connoisseur. Bulldawg's Firearms Page

June 5, 2000, 07:35 PM	#23
Bam Bam Senior Member Join Date: April 25, 2000 Location: Buffalo, NY Posts: 842	Have used a Black Shadow Turkey for trap and like it a lot. I think the one difference is that to take off the forend on the 1300 you have to remove the trigger assembly assembly first. On the Rem you just reach in there with your finger and push in the slide latch and the bolt comes out and forend slides out. I like the Win 1300 action. To me it is beautiful and elegant, the Rem is nice too, Mossberg doesn't rate in comparison. Well, probably price is the reason you see more Rems than Wins. But probably Win 1300s outsell Wingmasters.

June 6, 2000, 05:55 AM	#24
Dave McC Staff In Memoriam Join Date: October 13, 1999 Location: Columbia, Md, USA Posts: 8,811	I don't recall the source, but I remember that the 870 is the shotgun most units of have been produced. Others in the top 5 were the Ithaca 37, Winchesters 97 and 12, and the nigh infinite number of variations of the old H&R single bbl now made and sold by NEF.

June 6, 2000, 08:58 AM	#25
RedCrosse Member Join Date: May 14, 2000 Location: Bristol VA Posts: 45	I've got a 1300 as well, and really love it. If you'll remember a line of posts not too long ago about a shell being able to be "shaken" out when the shotgun is held on its right side? A couple of guys said, and I have gound this to be true with mine as well that the 1300 held on to the shell being chambered. I couldn't shake it out at all. This is another good point about the 1300!