Nosler Ballistic Tips fail on elk

[H&H,hunter]

Well I've got a different take on this problem, It ain't the Bullet it's the 7MM. (Sorry 7MM fans) I am not alone when I say this as I've had many other Elk hunting guides and hunters have the sme problem with any Bullet they shoot out of a 7MM on ELK or other game for that matter. It's the ELK woundingest round in the woods! In fact I've talked to several outfitters who won't allow A 7MM in Elk camp. My experience with the 7MM is that it's a very accurate round and a great target round but if your comming out west to hunt leave it at home. There is something about it that makes it penetrate like the devil but it just won't open up and tranfers very little energy. Maybe it's that long slender bullet and high S.D. And now I know I'll get a bunch of 7MM kill stories but it's been my experence that it's not one of the better game rifles out there.

[Long Path]

Bottom Gun--

That which will not die to a 250g .338 that holds 2moa is that which I have no desire to shoot. I think I'll give the Nosler 225 Partition a try out of my .35 Whelen.

-L.P.

[pinetree]

I hunt southern whitetail with 165g NBT's in a 30-06AI. Performance has be exceptional. Distances from 30-220 yards. I find that their rapid expansion increase the likelyhood of damaging the CNS or major blood vessels. HOWEVER, if I were going for BIG game, I'd opt for a more solidly constructed bullet. A Ballistic tip in a 338mag might have enough mass for Elk, but a 150g in a 7mag might be pushing it.

tjg

[Bottom Gun]

H&H,hunter,

I'm inclined to agree with you on the 7MM. I think it's too light for elk.
I learned the hard way that velocity is no substitute for a big old heavy bullet on large critters like elk.


Long Path,

Those 225 gr Partitions should be just the ticket in your .35 Whelen. Looks like they should be a good combination of velocity and mass and the accuracy may surprise you.
Let us know how they work out for you.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

The 7Mag may not be an all aspect killer on big elk, but this seems like a bullet failure rather than caliber. Much lesser calibers have been used on the big guys who know the limitations of their rifle. . I'm not certain how Nosler constructs the Ballistic Tip-whether the hollowpoint is pre-fractured or its a simple hollowpoint with the plastic tip driven back at impact to start the mushrooming (which I suspect)? I've had some 165 grain 308's which went through without hitting bone on these smaller Texas white tails and did not show much expansion-maybe to .50 diameter, but if bone is hit, the bullet flattens out and really makes a mess of the chest area. Head shots (which I like best) will typically leave a 1" or bigger exit wound from 60-300 yards.

[Bottom Gun]

I’ve thought about this a bit and have started wondering if BOTH the caliber and the bullet are to blame for the poor performance.
I’ve hunted with this guy and his 7MM for a couple of seasons now and as I recall, he had a problem putting a whitetail down with it last year when he was using factory Winchester Power Points.

I think the problem may be range.
My friend will regularly take shots I would normally pass up due to the distance. Each of the shots I mentioned earlier was taken in excess of 350 yards, including the one on the deer last year.

I examined the numerous holes in Paul’s elk this year after we skinned it and was surprised to see very little evidence of expansion where the bullets exited. None appeared to have hit bone.
Could it be that after these 7MM slugs have traveled 400 yards or more that they lack the necessary velocity for proper expansion? After all, they are only 150 grain slugs.

[DAVID NANCARROW]

Good Point, Bottom Gun.
Range is a really important deal, especially if the loads or especially the handloads are on the light side. 7 Mags are great for retained velocity, but you have to start them out pretty warm in order for them to hit with any kind of authority. I've seen elk hit at 200 yards with 7 mags and they seem to do okay at that range. Have not seen any taken with that particular caliber past that distance, but Nosler's literature does not really recomend BT's for large animals because they supposedly open quick. I would not see that as so much of a handicap at long range because the velocity is down.

[Glamdring]

A rough, very rough, rule of thumb for soft point rifle bullet expansion is that impact velocity has to be at or above 2000 fps.

Does your friend's 7mm have a 22" or 24" barrel? Has he run any of these loads over a chrony?

Still think there is something strange going on. From what you said your 338/210 Nosler was showing a LOT more expansion on coyotes at 350+ yards than your friend's 7mm with 150 ballistic tips. Which isn't what most people would expect IMHO.

Might suggest he try Nosler Partitons next time, they might not have the gee whiz BC but they will probably perform much better on game.

[labgrade]

Nosler's BTs always seemed very frangible in any shooting I've done with them which lead me to them at the start when working up loads for a Contender - figuring about 2400fps for a .30 cal rifle bullet. That they are very accurate was a definite plus.

When shooting 2 litre water-filled water bottles, I'd often find jacket parts in front of 'em - seemed very "explosive." Have heard that Nosler's boosted their design somewhat. I certainly wouldn't expect 'em not to expand.

Settled on the Barnes XBT in 165 grains, spec'd to still expand at 1600 fps. These bullets have a great BC, may not shoot well out of all rifles (longer bullet may not stabilize) & are way pricey.

Not necessary for most applications, I'd say, but for a particular niche = superb.

[KYE-OAT]

.......but.........Elk with a 150 grain Anything????? Let alone, the Ballistic Tip????????

[Bottom Gun]

Glamdring,

I don’t know how long his barrel is. He shoots a Browning A-Bolt. Maybe someone else here knows the length of their barrels.
His ammo was a Federal factory load with 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips. A poor choice for elk as it turned out. Wish I’d known what he was using beforehand. I probably would have tried to talk him into using something else.
In Paul’s defense though, he’s a pretty good hunter and very safe gun handler but he sometimes listens to the wrong “gun experts” and follows their advice. I don’t think he’s hunted elk with this 7MM before and I think he expected too much from it, especially with those Ballistic Tips.
I’m sure he’ll use premium bullets next time. He learned a valuable lesson this year.

Yes, my .338 with 210 partitions was expanding MUCH better than the 7MM with the 150 Ballistic Tips which is just the reverse of what I expected. This is why I suspect those 150’s were flawed or may need more velocity at longer ranges to expand reliably.

I hope it’s just those particular 7MM bullets not working properly because I have several hundred of the darned things in .30 and .33 caliber. I shot some out of my 30/06 this weekend and was VERY pleased with the accuracy. In fact, I should post a thread in the reloading forum here. Think I will.

[farmerboy]

I'd have to recommend the Hornady SST's. Alot of people that I'm around see the results from my kills and say "I dont know about those, some dont go complety through", no some dont. But you should be there when you open the animal up too! I will not shoot animals in the shoulders are neck for wasting too much meat. And the ones do exit look like a grenade was inside. I wont my bullet to be the MOST accurate bullet I have found #1 and #2 I wont it to dump the most energy into that animal and be the most devastating round I have ever seen. And thats what I have found the SST's to be. If you'll look you'll find I've only posted in this area about 3-4 times, I always stay on the reloading side. I just explored here early this morning but thats all I do is test, test and more testing with different bullets and the final test shows on the kills. Just my two cents!

[hooligan1]

I've loaded 150 gr. NBT's in my 3006, every deer that I did the proper job on, died instantly! I'have collected three pills from just under the off-side skin,reflecting full mushrooming and at the very least 95% retained weight. I've heard people complain about NBT's exploding on bone, Its' never happened to me. They're accurate and they kill. theres nothing I can add to that..Ivekilled maybe twenty-five or so deer, anywhere from 50lbs to 250lbs, and that bullet has always seemed to surpass all my expectations!! In 1997 or there abouts I shot a large doe at 250yds, this rifle is sighted in 3 inches high at 100, I held just in her back bone thinking she was further, the round went through her backstraps and right through the spine and out the other side, there was a golfball sized hole halfway through her. Broke her down like a dirty sparkplug. I can see a problem with maybe a certain lot# of product but don't judge every NBT just from a couple stories. The Partition bullet was designed for deep penatration the ballistic tip for accuracy and shock.

[bamaranger]

I loaded and shot the .270/130 for a few years in a Rem ADL w/ 22" bbl. Never screened the load, but suspect 2800 fps +. Killed exactly 3 deer w/ it, 1 at 30 yds , 1 at 160 paces and another at 212 paces.

None of the wounds, exits or damage were particularly dramatic. All 3 deer acted like other rifle hit deer, sprinting a short distance before going down. The bullet at 160 did not exit, it was a raking shot and the bullet fragmented while passing forward from just ahead of the the diaphragm to the opposite shoulder.

I was surprised, as my shooting buddy was loading 140 B-tips in his 7mm Mag and they were like small bombs. He's disabled, a back injury, and occasionally calls for me to help recover the deer and help hoist and butcher. The wounds he was getting with his 7mm/140 loads were devastating, and I was expecting same from my .270/130, but it didn't happen on the 3 I shot, not even the close (30 yd one).

My .270 experience is contrary to what others say, and 3 deer is not much of a sample, granted.

[bullspotter]

I think the velocity has alot to do with how a bullet works, If a bullet is made to open up and retain weight at 2800 fps and your pushing it at 3000 its going to not perform as advertised, same way with under driving it, like a far shot would do, look at the velocity drop off at 400 yard vrs the muzzel. I shoot 130 NBT out of my 270, hand loads with 4350, near max, and its a deer thumping machine, Ive taken deer from 50 yards out to 340 with it, If I had to take a guess, 85% or more of the deer ive shot were DRT, and the rest never made it 50 yards pry. Some of the wounds were pretty nasty, some not so terrable, but the bottem line is the animals were down pretty fast, this combo seems to work for me for deer size game, for elk I would choose the partion or accubond, or even a Barnes tsx. and also for elk I would prefure a 30 cal or bigger.

[Nnobby45]

BT's were designed to work at velocities more associated with long range. They can come apart a close range velocities.

I loaded a bunch for a friend who likes them (150 gr.) in '06 and they worked fine. However, they were loaded to a MV of about 2850 fps, and at 100 yds and out they peformed fined on antelope, and deer and weren't too destructive.

Don't know what happend to a 150 gr. from a 7mm Mag. An autopsy report would have been helpful in analyzing the problem.

While BT's have been known to expand too quickly on big game, having the bullet exit a coyote is how I'd want it. Pretty tough to design a bullet that expands quickly in coyotes and stops them in their tracks while, at the same time, giving deep penetration a a critter the size of an elk.

Your Noslers that were designed so the front part expands moderately even at long range, while the back part drives it deep, would be expected to perform well on game of different sizes and at different ranges.

The Nosler BT simply wasn't so designed, and going thru the coyote-- without much expansion-- is a good thing for an elk bullet.

Without a little "post mortum" report, we still don't know why they didn't work tht well on elk. And just because the elk didn't immediately drop with the first shot doesn't mean he wasn't done for or that all those shots were necessary.

[HiBC]

I really like BT's.Accurate,good BC,and,for me,a great lung shot bullet.I wonder if someone at the ammo factory substituted Accubonds.FWIW,I use .115 BTs in my .257 AI,it kills very well.
Same time,a BT in small calibers would not be my first choice for elk.The Accubond would be a better choice,and in a 7 mm,a 160 partition is good.

[Art Eatman]

Nuthin' like resurrecting a nine-year-old thread with an off-topic comment...