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Old November 1, 2000, 02:38 AM   #1
taco
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How reliable must a handgun must be before you trust it enough for carry? 1 FTF out of 200 rounds reliable enough? 1/500? 1/1,000? 1/10,000?

What is the requirement for military pistols?

For me, 1/1,000 is minimum.
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Old November 1, 2000, 06:47 AM   #2
Edmund Rowe
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I would ask some key questions first regarding reliability:

How does my pistol do when I shoot it HARD under stressful circumstances?

I am assuming that you are ruling out all malfunctions that were preventable (e.g. not inserting the magazine fully and checking for same).

A possible check drill: Load up all your magazines, start with the handgun in your preferred carry mode, and at a target 7 yards distant shoot as fast as you can accurately fire:
-2 to the upper chest from standing
-drop to kneeling and shoot 2 to the upper chest
-drop to prone and shoot 2 to the head
-Raise to kneeling and shoot 2 to the upper chest
-stand up and shoot 2 to the upper chest.

Repeat until the slide locks open on empty.
Now reload and repeat until every mag is empty.

That wasn't so bad, right? Now reload the mags and repeat with just your right hand. There's much less support just shooting one hand. Best results usually come from locking the arm straight. For real fun only use the shooting hand for reloads (safest way is put the handgun back in the holster to change mags).

Now reload mags and repeat, but use only your left hand. This sucks, huh?

Then repeat the drill with both hands.

If you have a partner, have him mix dummy rounds in the magazines so you can practice malfunction clearances, too.

This is just a suggestion on evaluating yourself and your handgun (your total "weapons system") under other than casual conditions. If your handgun doesn't malf on any of this on repeated days, I'd consider it OK to start with. Now your 1 out of 1000 or 10,000 is more meaningful.

...and check beforehand with your range to see that they will allow this sort of shooting!

Also consider some professional training. Believe me, you will find out a LOT about yourself and your equipment at a good class as taught by Randy Cain, Jim Crews, Louis Awerbuck, Gunsite, Thunder Ranch, Gabe Suarex, James Yeager, Massad Ayoob, etc.

Edmund

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Old November 1, 2000, 06:55 AM   #3
WESHOOT2
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I carry two guns.

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"All my ammo is factory ammo"

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Old November 1, 2000, 08:30 AM   #4
cobraman
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Very very reliable. Such as my CZ or Sig.
No FTF's one mis fire in the Sig with some crappy range ammo. The primer was struck it just didnt go off. My Kimber bobbles or chokes every once and awhile. The Kimber stays home.
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Old November 1, 2000, 08:36 AM   #5
HankB
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I try to INDUCE malfunctions. Using my carry ammo, I shoot the pistol strong hand, weak hand, sideways, upside down, firmly gripped and limp-wristed, in all positions. If it chokes in 200 rounds, I don't carry it.
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Old November 1, 2000, 08:51 PM   #6
Torpedo
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Get a good revolver and jams and limp wristing become a thing of the past! For all you .45 affectionados get a S&W model 625. Just havin' a little fun guys. No insult intended.

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***Torpedo***
It's a good life if you can survive it!
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Old November 1, 2000, 09:02 PM   #7
Robert Foote
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Barring obviously bad ammo or equally obvious shooter error, I am greatly disturbed by anything less than 100% reliability.Taken over X number of years times X number of rounds fired to infinity. Considering the number of guns with long, successful track records in police and military service, this is not impractical. I think that DA revolvers, basic 1911s, and Glocks meet this standard. (KISS.)

If a gun won't perform up to this it ought to be dropped off a bridge.

My opinion, of course.

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Old November 1, 2000, 09:05 PM   #8
C.R.Sam
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Torpedo...., .44 not that much smaller and seems to be pretty adequate.

WS2...me too.

Sam...my favorite 9mm is the 9X32R
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Old November 1, 2000, 10:45 PM   #9
Rusty S
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Gee, I thought it only had to be reliable when you really really needed it.
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Old November 2, 2000, 03:09 AM   #10
BrokenArrow
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IIRC, the std for the Austrian pistol trials was 1/500. For the FBI 40/45s 1/2000.

Some scores I've heard:

HK USP compacts for the DEA: 1/10,250

Glock 40s for the FBI: none in 120,000 (20,000 in 6 pistols)

SIG 228 for the Army (M11): none in 15,000 (5,000 in 3 pistols)

Beretta 92 for the Army: 5/168,000 (12 pistols)

S&W 4006 for the CHP: none in 10,000 (5,000 in two pistols)

SA M1911A1s for the FBI: 5 or 6?/80,000 (20,000 in 4 pistols)not sure about this, but it's pretty close

The std to beat set by the M1911A1 in the original M9 trials: 1/450

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>>>>---->
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Old November 2, 2000, 04:34 PM   #11
damage
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my Beretta 92 g elite 3000+ rounds not 1 ftf or any other malfuntion

my Beretta 92 compact only 600+ but not 1 ftf yet when it gets to 1000+ then i'll trust it with my life

after 5000 rounds do some serious inspections tho to make sure that things like recoil springs and hammer springs and other parts don't need to be replaced
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Old November 2, 2000, 05:39 PM   #12
beemerb
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I carry a sig 220.Have I had jams?Yes.But all jams are the result of reloads with burrs on the rim from shooting in colts.With factory ammo?No jams.Amount of jams in the last 10,000 rds due to reloads about 1 in a 1000.If I could buy all brand new brass and start from scratch with the sig only I would have 0 jams even with reloads.
A FTF or the case of my sig a fail to extract is I think good for the shooter.You learn to get back into action fast.

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Bob--- Age and deceit will overcome youth and speed.
I'm old and deceitful.
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Old November 2, 2000, 06:00 PM   #13
USP45usp
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A gun is a tool, just like a car or a screwdriver. Some will "break" under certain conditions or a "lemon" will emerge every once in a while. I've seen $600 dollar guns jam right out of the box or even after a few hundred rounds. I've seen inexpensive guns fire round after round with no problems what so ever. I buy a new gun, I go out and fire it. If it works, without many problems, and become confident that I can fix any problems if they arise, then I feel safe carring it. If they malfunction consistenly then they become "experimental" tools; i.e. work on my smithing skills and engraving skills.

Case in point: I have a charter arms .38 (one of the old ones by the old company). I fire/use +P ammo for it.. it is not designed to use +P ammo. The cylinder bridge has not cracked or split due to this (and I've fired over 700 rounds of +P) but the cylinder does a "lockup" after the second two rounds are fired (five the first time, then two, then lock up). All I have to do is rotate the cylinder a quarter of an inch and it fires well until about the 12th round (third reload). Now, I can't afford, yet, to get that SP101 .357 that I want to replace it but for the time being, I know the quirks of the gun and have trained for them. Hey, allot of you may think I'm stupid.. but us poor folks have to do what we can.

USP45usp

*BTW, if you're wondering why I don't carry the HK compact.. Uniform reasons.. I can carry the .38 okay but the compact is still too big right now.
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Old November 3, 2000, 08:43 AM   #14
355sigfan
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Any malfunction that can't be explained by bad ammo or a part breaking makes a gun unacceptable in my opinion. All mechanical devices can fail and break but if they fail for no apparant reason thats not acceptable.
PAT

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I intend to go into harms way.
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Old November 3, 2000, 08:48 AM   #15
355sigfan
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Mike AKA broken arrow
S&W 4006 for the CHP: none in 10,000 (5,000 in two pistols)

I find this quote totally the oposite of what I have seen in Alaska. The troopers here use that weapon and they have had nothing but problems. While in the academy I saw more malfunctions with this gun than anyother. You could not pay me enough to carry a smith and wesson auto unless I could back it up with a mini glock and then I would leave the smith in the holster and use the back up weapon.
PAT

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Old November 3, 2000, 09:10 AM   #16
WESHOOT2
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Just in case I wasn't completely clear on this subject; I carry two guns.

Got it? Know what I mean? Clear?


Good...

------------------
"All my ammo is factory ammo"

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Old November 3, 2000, 10:16 AM   #17
BrokenArrow
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Could be inconsistencies in S&W quality control? CHP seems very happy w their 4006; some dentist said some have 50K rounds through them, and they like the 180 ammo better too BTW.

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>>>>---->

[This message has been edited by BrokenArrow (edited November 03, 2000).]
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Old November 3, 2000, 07:08 PM   #18
355sigfan
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Mike the troops issue three different types of 180 grain ammo depending on what is cheapest at the time. They started with hydra shocks then went Winchester ranger then golden saber all three can be found in arms rooms. The hydra shock had the most failures to feed. The guns seem to run smoother on the other two.
PAT

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Old November 3, 2000, 07:58 PM   #19
SuperCell
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taco- the last thing I want to do is start an argument here. But the answer to your question is one word...Glock. They go bang when you need them to, and they hit what they are pointed at. IF it came right down to chosing ANY handgun that I would trust my life or my kids life with, it will be a Glock.
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Old November 3, 2000, 08:39 PM   #20
RikWriter
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For me, unless a jam can be traced to an obviously defective magazine or badly loaded ammo, ANY failure to feed disqualifies the gun to be carried for defense. If a gun fails to feed and it can't be traced to one of those two things, I would have a smith look at it. If it is something simple like a ramp polishing I might have it done and then put the gun through a severe test and if it passed, I would trust it again.
But most likely I would just get rid of it.
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