BAR question

Dr Killdeer · August 23, 2009, 07:53 AM

I would appreciate anyone’s advice relative the following situation. One of my favorite deer rifles is my Browning BAR in 30.06 caliber. I only use it for deer in the Catskills where, in the last 24 years the longest shot I’ve had was about 90 yards. I’m shooting an accuracy load tipped with a 150 grain Nosler Partition bullet held by a medium taper crimp. The bullet is sitting (+/-) 12 thousandths from the rifling. The OAL is within specs, there are no signs of excess pressure, no feed problems, no ejection problems and I’m not stressing the brass.
It’s a pretty nifty load and it prints tight enough at 100 yards for its intended use.

But, I was wondering if I could tighten the groups by seating the bullet nearly touching the rifling, like a bolt action rifle. Is that a prudent move for a semi automatic rifle? I should probably leave well enough alone, but I’m relatively new to reloading and my curiosity is getting the better of me.

steve4102 · August 23, 2009, 08:50 AM

The 150gr Partition does not have a cannelure, how are you applying a taper crimp to a non-cannelured bullet?

.012 off the lands is already plenty close. If you want to experiment with OAL, try going shorter. Close to the lands is not always the best for accuracy. Your rifle may shoot much better with a shorter OAL.

Have you tried different powder charges or different powders?

Dr Killdeer · August 23, 2009, 09:31 AM

I have a stigma about a bullet being pushed back into the case (probably not a valid concern) so I called Nosler and told them I'm using a Lee factory crimp die. The tech guy said Nosler doesn't recommend the use of that die because it could deform the bullet. He suggested I use a Redding taper crimp die. I can't see any difference on the bullet, between the two dies.

I've only tried two powders so far. H-414 and H-4350. With H-414 I couldn't get consistency in the 3 shot groups at 100 yards. I always shoot from a cold barrel (very time consuming) and I use the lead-sled. The H-4350 (57 Grains) seemed to be the miracle cure.

I thought the deeper you seat the bullet, the more you reduce the case capacity and the pressure builds? If seating deeper can actually improve accuracy, I'll try it! I enjoy experimenting. Thanks for your post Steve!

jaguarxk120 · August 23, 2009, 09:48 AM

Take a look at some of the other post's about crimping. There are pictures posted showing how a bullet is squashed out of shape by a fcd.

Listen to the bullet maker they know their product and how it will perform.

I would take their advice above all others, as they test there bullets all the time under different conditions.

**Bud Helms** · August 23, 2009, 09:56 AM

Just an opinion here, but I don't think you will have much success trying to fine tune the bullet-to-land clearance with your handloads in an auto loader. I'm not saying it can't be done, but the cycling of the action of an autoloader is kind of rough on a cartridge. For example, 0.005 bullet-to-land clearance sounds like a good way to get some ogive right up there in the lands. Better have some good neck tension, cause those cartridges get slammed up in there pretty good.

I would probably go for a deeper bullet seating than you're using now, just to maintain those bullets off the lands. I've never tried to do what you propose with an autoloader, but I have done it with a good bolt gun with some success. Maybe I'm over cautious about this, but when I was traipsying through the creek bottoms in NW FL with a Remington Jam-O-Matic, in my younger days, I used factory ammo only.

Question: why would you taper crimp a bottle necked rifle cartridge? A taper crimp is primarily for rimless straight-walled cartridges that headspace on the case mouth. Are you talking about a factory crimp, as in Lee Factory Crimp die?

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve4102

The 150gr Partition does not have a cannelure, how are you applying a taper crimp to a non-cannelured bullet?

steve4102, you seem to be implying that one needs a cannelured bullet to use a taper crimp. Where did you hear that?

Dr Killdeer · August 23, 2009, 10:15 AM

I'm going to abandone the idea of trying to seat on the lands. In fact, I'm going to seat deeper. However, the crimp issue still intrigues me. Since I'm new to this very complex hobby, I don't want to make any mistakes. The Lee factory crimp die doesn't deform the bullet at all, or at least it didn't deform mine. I put the micrometer to a few pulled bullets and it says they're OK.

Incidentally, this site is a gold mine for guys like me. What a find.

steve4102 · August 23, 2009, 02:04 PM

Quote:

steve4102, you seem to be implying that one needs a cannelured bullet to use a taper crimp. Where did you hear that?

You seemed to have answered your own question.

Quote:

Question: why would you taper crimp a bottle necked rifle cartridge? A taper crimp is primarily for rimless straight-walled cartridges that headspace on the case mouth.

**Bud Helms** · August 23, 2009, 03:39 PM

No. They are two different questions.

jepp2 · August 23, 2009, 06:10 PM

You say it prints tight enough at 100 yards, yet you want to improve the accuracy. What size groups/shots are you getting at 100 yards?

I used the same rifle/caliber to deer hunt with for several years. I never could even begin to approach the group size I was able to get from bolt action rifles.

And I really would never consider seating as close to the lands as you are. Without a crimp, the bullets moves forward considerably if you let the bolt close under it's own force. I have had it pull a bullet (just like an inertia puller) when chambering the same round repeatedly.

I found the BAR to be a very nice deer rifle but switched to a bolt as the location I was hunting had longer shots frequently.

Gbro · August 23, 2009, 06:16 PM

If your BAR is anything like the dozens of them that come through our range during sight-in-days you are going to have a hard time outdoing factory ammo. BAR-None,(pun intended) the BAR in .30-'36 is one of the finest shooting rifles I have ever seen with factory ammo (Fed Premiums and others).
And I do not, nor do i ever intend on owning one.
Just a simple Red-Neck observation

.

Dr Killdeer · August 24, 2009, 09:34 AM

To date, I’m getting inch and a quarter groups at 100 yards, but I believe the rifle is capable of doing better. I think I need to experiment with a lot more combinations. I’m glad jepp2 mentioned the crimp issue, because I suspected that could happen, despite being told by some long time reloaders that a crimp is not necessary. Also, as of the feedback from this forum, I’m going to back away from the rifling a little more.

Not to stray too far from the reloading issues, but the Browning is my Catskill Mountains rifle. Yea, in some respects it’s a crowbar, but I’m a still hunter and most of the time either I’m stalking or “tier jumping.” If I was on a stand all day, like you see on the Outdoor Channel, waiting for a thirty yard unobstructed broadside shot at a stationary target, with a half hour to debate when to take him, I’d probably use my SAKO Finnbear. But in the real world, or at least where I hunt, in the majority of cases they know something is rotten in Denmark and they’re on the move. When a fast follow up shot, or two, is needed, the BAR is my rifle of choice.

Jbro’s light hearted post about a red-neck observation is actually true. A friend, also new to reloading has the same rifle in 270 caliber. He gave up and went back to factory ammo. He believes automatics are too finicky to handload for!

August 23, 2009, 07:53 AM	#1
Dr Killdeer Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 127	BAR question I would appreciate anyone’s advice relative the following situation. One of my favorite deer rifles is my Browning BAR in 30.06 caliber. I only use it for deer in the Catskills where, in the last 24 years the longest shot I’ve had was about 90 yards. I’m shooting an accuracy load tipped with a 150 grain Nosler Partition bullet held by a medium taper crimp. The bullet is sitting (+/-) 12 thousandths from the rifling. The OAL is within specs, there are no signs of excess pressure, no feed problems, no ejection problems and I’m not stressing the brass. It’s a pretty nifty load and it prints tight enough at 100 yards for its intended use. But, I was wondering if I could tighten the groups by seating the bullet nearly touching the rifling, like a bolt action rifle. Is that a prudent move for a semi automatic rifle? I should probably leave well enough alone, but I’m relatively new to reloading and my curiosity is getting the better of me.

August 23, 2009, 09:31 AM	#3
Dr Killdeer Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 127	Bar I have a stigma about a bullet being pushed back into the case (probably not a valid concern) so I called Nosler and told them I'm using a Lee factory crimp die. The tech guy said Nosler doesn't recommend the use of that die because it could deform the bullet. He suggested I use a Redding taper crimp die. I can't see any difference on the bullet, between the two dies. I've only tried two powders so far. H-414 and H-4350. With H-414 I couldn't get consistency in the 3 shot groups at 100 yards. I always shoot from a cold barrel (very time consuming) and I use the lead-sled. The H-4350 (57 Grains) seemed to be the miracle cure. I thought the deeper you seat the bullet, the more you reduce the case capacity and the pressure builds? If seating deeper can actually improve accuracy, I'll try it! I enjoy experimenting. Thanks for your post Steve!

August 23, 2009, 10:15 AM	#6
Dr Killdeer Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 127	Crimp/No crimp? I'm going to abandone the idea of trying to seat on the lands. In fact, I'm going to seat deeper. However, the crimp issue still intrigues me. Since I'm new to this very complex hobby, I don't want to make any mistakes. The Lee factory crimp die doesn't deform the bullet at all, or at least it didn't deform mine. I put the micrometer to a few pulled bullets and it says they're OK. Incidentally, this site is a gold mine for guys like me. What a find.

August 23, 2009, 06:16 PM	#10
Gbro Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,084	If your BAR is anything like the dozens of them that come through our range during sight-in-days you are going to have a hard time outdoing factory ammo. BAR-None,(pun intended) the BAR in .30-'36 is one of the finest shooting rifles I have ever seen with factory ammo (Fed Premiums and others). And I do not, nor do i ever intend on owning one. Just a simple Red-Neck observation. __________________ Gbro CGVS For the message of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, But to us who are being saved, It Is The Power Of God. 1Corinthians 1-18

August 24, 2009, 09:34 AM	#11
Dr Killdeer Senior Member Join Date: August 22, 2009 Location: Newburgh, NY Posts: 127	BAR To date, I’m getting inch and a quarter groups at 100 yards, but I believe the rifle is capable of doing better. I think I need to experiment with a lot more combinations. I’m glad jepp2 mentioned the crimp issue, because I suspected that could happen, despite being told by some long time reloaders that a crimp is not necessary. Also, as of the feedback from this forum, I’m going to back away from the rifling a little more. Not to stray too far from the reloading issues, but the Browning is my Catskill Mountains rifle. Yea, in some respects it’s a crowbar, but I’m a still hunter and most of the time either I’m stalking or “tier jumping.” If I was on a stand all day, like you see on the Outdoor Channel, waiting for a thirty yard unobstructed broadside shot at a stationary target, with a half hour to debate when to take him, I’d probably use my SAKO Finnbear. But in the real world, or at least where I hunt, in the majority of cases they know something is rotten in Denmark and they’re on the move. When a fast follow up shot, or two, is needed, the BAR is my rifle of choice. Jbro’s light hearted post about a red-neck observation is actually true. A friend, also new to reloading has the same rifle in 270 caliber. He gave up and went back to factory ammo. He believes automatics are too finicky to handload for!

August 23, 2009, 08:50 AM	#2
steve4102 Senior Member Join Date: December 23, 2005 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,955	The 150gr Partition does not have a cannelure, how are you applying a taper crimp to a non-cannelured bullet? .012 off the lands is already plenty close. If you want to experiment with OAL, try going shorter. Close to the lands is not always the best for accuracy. Your rifle may shoot much better with a shorter OAL. Have you tried different powder charges or different powders?

August 23, 2009, 09:48 AM	#4
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	Take a look at some of the other post's about crimping. There are pictures posted showing how a bullet is squashed out of shape by a fcd. Listen to the bullet maker they know their product and how it will perform. I would take their advice above all others, as they test there bullets all the time under different conditions.

August 23, 2009, 03:39 PM	#8
Bud Helms Senior Member Join Date: December 31, 1999 Location: Middle Georgia, USA Posts: 13,198	No. They are two different questions.

August 23, 2009, 06:10 PM	#9
jepp2 Senior Member Join Date: December 24, 2008 Location: Loveland, CO Posts: 1,476	You say it prints tight enough at 100 yards, yet you want to improve the accuracy. What size groups/shots are you getting at 100 yards? I used the same rifle/caliber to deer hunt with for several years. I never could even begin to approach the group size I was able to get from bolt action rifles. And I really would never consider seating as close to the lands as you are. Without a crimp, the bullets moves forward considerably if you let the bolt close under it's own force. I have had it pull a bullet (just like an inertia puller) when chambering the same round repeatedly. I found the BAR to be a very nice deer rifle but switched to a bolt as the location I was hunting had longer shots frequently.