LFI Student Shoots Self in Leg

[Double Naught Spy]

So she was skillful and maybe overly confident and the holster being not right for the gun was not clear before the incident because nobody checked?

http://www.theunionleader.com/articl...?article=42427

DUNBARTON — A Concord attorney accidentally shot herself in the leg while attending a firearms course yesterday.

Penny Dean was not hurt badly when she fired her handgun while attempting to put it in a gun holster she was wearing.

Dean was taking an advanced shooting course offered by the Concord-based Lethal Force Institute at the Pioneer Sportsmen shooting range on Clinton Street when the accident happened shortly before 2 p.m. yesterday.

“Miss Dean was holstering a handgun, at which point the weapon discharged and fired a bullet into her left leg,” said Dunbarton police officer Christopher Connelly. Police determined the shooting was accidental after a brief investigation at the pistol range.

Dean was wielding a 10mm Glock Model 29 automatic handgun, which is popular with both men and women, according to Lethal Force shooting instructor Massad Ayoob. She was among five students involved in a five-day firearms course.

Ayoob described Dean as a “very skillful and confident gun handler.” He said she was using a holster that was not right for the gun and said that it was not immediately obvious to the instructor prior to the accident.

Ayoob said it was the first such accident in his 23 years as a firearms instructor.

Dean had taken previous firearms instruction from the Lethal Force Institute prior to the advanced training she was involved in yesterday, according to Ayoob.

Dean was taken by ambulance to Concord Hospital, where she was treated and released.

[LAK]

Holsters having flexible material that might wander inside the triggerguard. Of course trying to holster a Glock (a live one chambered) with a finger inside the triggerguard might end in the same. But I do not understand why this point has not been drummed alot more - and that anyone who runs an operation like Mr Ayoob would make this issue part of a class inspection before any range work.

[Quartus]

10mm Glock Model 29 automatic handgun

I gotta get one of those automatic handguns! Actually, I found a video of a full auto Glock online this week.


Now if I could just find the link again....


Check this thread

[Double Naught Spy]

Right, and was it Fobus that had a recall for a trigger guard retention device that was apparently not working quite right and could cause a discharge.

I know Glocks boast of having a safety, 3 actually including the one on the trigger, but if you depress the trigger, you deactivate the safety and that could happen with some holsters.

Of course, this sort of holster problem has existed for DAO guns for quite some time as has making sure students were told to make sure their fingers were outside the trigger guard before holstering. No safety means the gun can discharge when the trigger is depressed, inside the holster or out.

I am curious. Did the Glock manage to cycle properly?

[Archie]

Ten or so years ago, an unnamed Federal agency had a trainee shoot himself in the buttocks.

Double action revolver, and one of those dernier cri holsters that covered the triggerguard. We all know the one; the type that prevents accidental discharges? The revolver discharged when holstering. The trainee in question (who has since more than redeemed himself) cannot remember if his finger was on the trigger or not. (That is the prevailant suspicion, and he thinks it likely.)

He skinned his right butt cheek rather well. It bled, he was taken to hospital and treated. His pride suffered more damage than his body, I'm happy to report. Such is life.

[Damon]

Luckily, no fatalities. Unfortunately, it happened at all.

[CarlosDJackal]

This can happen to just about anyone. This is the primary reason I prefer to carry Kydex holsters.

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, I don't know that it could happen to anyone. Having the wrong type of holster for a pistol isn't something that should happen to anyone. It should not happen.

I have to wonder if this happened during the LFI-IV class.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...=ayoob+dracula

[Mannlicher]

maybe she was training to be a cop. They do that sort of thing a lot.

[mvpel]

She was taking the LFI-III class, not training for police work.

She doesn't normally carry in a belt holster, and the belt she had available was too tight for her, the shape of her body put an odd cant on the borrowed holster, she's right-handed and they were doing left-handed shooting drills, and the holster wasn't the right kind for her firearm.

She's the attorney for someone pursuing a case against the town in question, which she suspects is the reason they put out a press release on the incident.

She had the misfortune, at the Concord hospital, of being subjected to the arrogance and condescension of a virulently anti-gun surgeon. She checked herself out after she got fed up with him, and went to see a friend of hers in Portsmouth the following Thursday.

The wound is healing reasonably well - the bullet made a channel with an entrance wound near her hip and an exit wound above her knee.

Best wishes can be sent to [email protected].

[Double Naught Spy]

Well, the police work comment was pretty much unnecessary. Then again, it does not matter if she was involved in police training or not. She was involved in gun training, something in common between police and civilians who are working on developing their skills.

Is this all actually correct?
She doesn't normally carry in a belt holster, and the belt she had available was too tight for her, the shape of her body put an odd cant on the borrowed holster, she's right-handed and they were doing left-handed shooting drills, and the holster wasn't the right kind for her firearm.

If correct, that sheds a lot of light on things. There is no reason it should have happened. There is no reason the lawyer should have had the wrong gear. This is especially true for the belt, body shape, and holster.

First, while she may not regularly carry in a belt holster, she is a repeat LFI student. She knew what to expect and should have had the correct gear. There is no reason she should have had a belt that was too tight. Given her probable income, she should have had her own and proper holster, one that fit her body type.

This all sort of flies in the face of Ayoob's comments that she was a skillful and confident gun handler. If she was skillful as claimed, she would have had the right gear since proper gun handling involves the right gear as well.

I am still trying to imagine just how it was that she was wearing a holster on the right side and that the holster caused the discharge. Even at an odd cant, in just what position on the right side with the odd cant would result in the discharge that passed through her left leg, starting at the hip where it entered, down the leg and exiting by the knee? Was she using some Oswald miracle ammo that allowed for multiple changes in direction to perform in the manner desired?

The closest I could imagine is that she might have been wearing a rear cant holster forward of her right hip or a cross draw holster) usually worn on the left side to be drawn with the right hand) worn forward of the right hip. I know many women wear belt holsters in that position because their body shapes don't always allow for carrying at the 3:00 - 5:00 o'clock positions. Worn in such a manner, the muzzle would be pointed down toward her left leg, but I still don't see the entry at the hip (high on the leg) and exiting near the knee.

Can anyone explain how the injuries could have resulted from the gun being in the holster or in the process of being put into the holster?

As for the anti-gun doctor's comments, many doctors make negative comments about various items and activities that result in injuries and deaths. Some harp on motorcycle riders, for example.

[LAK]

Can't explain the bullet path injury; but about any thumbreak holster might cause such a discharge. All it takes is for the thumbtab to get inside the triggerguard. If she was not used to holster work this is quite possible.

Not to badmouth Ayoob for the sake of it; but it strikes me that he is not running a very tight ship if the information given is true. Personally, I could not imagine running such a course and not inspecting all fireams and other equipment before each class.

And rather than put this lady in such a position with an ill-fitting belt and incorrect holster - why did not Ayoob simply have her use her usual method of carry (what ever it is)?

[nyeti]

I'm kind of wondering if she was minus a pint of blood and pumped full of epinepherine of some hokey b.s. The guys who use these types of stupid training gimmicks (chemicals, students holding targets, etc.) really need to get a clue. If you look at the real tip of the spear folks who are doing quite well in training programs with people who are getting into shootings regularly don't seem to have this kind of junk in their programs. The only folks who seem to get anything out of it are the Walter Mitty's who think its "neato".

[Arc Angel]

Wow, this is one very very lucky lawyer! Sounds like she might have fired the pistol straight down her leg. I really have to agree with much of what Double Naught Spy has to say. Not very professional - at all. While others may disagree, I like Mas Ayoob and wish him well; but, this incident has, 'screw up' written all over it. Chalk up another ND for Glock's, 'Safe-Action'.

ESPECIALLY when using a Glock the, 'right holster' is imperative! I like Kydex or a good stiff leather holster that has an open top and covers the trigger guard. In addition to this precaution, learning to, 'worship' a straight trigger finger is paramount to surviving the day. Like I said, this is one very lucky lawyer. Sounds like it could have been a lot worse. (Like no knee!)

[mass]

While I join all the other LFI students in being amazed that this happened, given Ayoob's comment about it being the first time in 23 years, and given how many people he trains each year and how many times guns are holstered per class..... you know it may be 1 in a million, but that just means that after a million holsterings that the odds are it will happen once.

Of course the gambler falicy now says that no one will get hurt at LFI for another 23 years

Face it, shes a busy lawyer, maybe she just had too much on her mind, not enough sleep, etc.....

Making sure your finger is straight is good advice, having a gun you can put "on safe" when you holster it to my mind is better advice.

[Chui]

There's no way in H3ll one could even remotely fault the Glock pistol in this accident. It did what it was supposed to do: FIRE upon squeezing the trigger.

You are the BRAINS or MIND CONTROLLING the pistol (which is, in effect, an extension of the Mind). You slip up and ugly things can (and will) happen.

Be safe. ALWAYS.

[Rich Lucibella]

Bullet path:
This is the second such incident I've heard of in the past decade or so. In both cases, the bullet enters the skin blow the hip and exits above the knee causing a fairly superficial wound. This is as it should be.....viusally trace the direction of your muzzle when standing and holstered.

Still a negligent discharge, but apparently not a super dangerous situation as far as self inflicted bullet wounds go.
Rich

[Phil306]

I would agree with Double Naught on this one. If she was allowed to use an improper holster, wrong belt, etc I can see some major liability issues on Mr Ayoob's part. And isn't he supposed to be the guru of liability???

It shouldn't have happened. If she had all of the proper equipment, then I would say bad on her; since it appears as if she didn't, then bad on Mr Ayoob.

[Rich Lucibella]

Phil-
And if I go to Gunsite and borrow another student's pistol which later bows up, should I be able to go after Gunsite?

Sheesh. She enrolled. She strapped a belt on. She added a holster. She holstered a pistol. She had an ND. Certainly LFI may have some liability, but only in the Age of the Common Man.
Rich

[Double Naught Spy]

Somebody help me here. The lawyer is right handed and had borrowed gear. She was doing left-handed drills. Was the borrowed gear right-handed, such that maybe they were doing the typical off-hand injured shooter drills? Or was it left-handed gear and she was just trained left handed?

Bottom lines:
1. LFI should have checked gear because of being professional, concerned, responsible, and litigation conscious.
2. The class size wasn't so large as to suggest gear could not be checked. There were all of 5 students, rigth?
3. While there is the risk of litigation and the school can be responsible, the shooter is ALWAYS responsible for their own actions. They are also responsible for their own gear, gear they CHOOSE to use (such as borrowed gear), and what happens with said gear. The weaponry is LETHAL and the consequences HUGE if there are mistakes. It isn't like having the wrong type of shoes for C&W dancing. When I have seen experienced shooters make significant mistakes, it is often when learning to perform a new activity or perform at a level. I have seen offhanded shooters launch rounds over the berm (experienced military man) and a guy almost shoot both himself and Hackathorn in the feet (Hackathorn standing next to the guy with a time while the guy was drawing) when he pulled the trigger as the gun cleared leather.
4. Whenever, EVER doing new or unusual drills, especially offhanded drills, the chance for mistakes increases dramatically, almost like dealing with a new shooter. Everyone has to be very conscious of what they are doing and instructors need to be exceptionally aware of what students are doing.

Sometimes being experienced does not work in one's favor. As Clint Smith likes to note about Thunder Ranch classes, the really dangerous ones are when they have the instructors courses and everyone on the firing line is an expert and many don't feel anymore that all the rules really apply.

Guns are serious tools, but no more serious than the cars we drive everyday and sadly many of us manage to screw up something as simple and as lethal as driving.

[LAK]

Just me, but were I conducting training where students bring their own guns and gear, everything would be inspected beforehand. And while it is not possible to foresee everything and anything, things like this have happened before enough times for it to be a significant concern with pistols like Glocks.

[oops]

Isn't she the lawyer representing someone on thehighroad.org that was legally open carrying his Glock in a Barnes and Noble bookstore who was jumped from behind by police while he was just browsing at the bookshelves?

[pwrtool45]

As Clint Smith likes to note about Thunder Ranch classes, the really dangerous ones are when they have the instructors courses and everyone on the firing line is an expert and many don't feel anymore that all the rules really apply.

And quite often, that's the problem. We usually give ourselves a lot more credit than we deserve-- wheather it be for marksmanship, gun handling, speed or general understanding. So much so that we look down on safety nets or rules as "getting in the way" or "just for beginners." We're all a mite quick to believe that we're not the ones that need it when sometimes we're exactly the ones that do.

The more I've learned, the more I realize I don't know; no matter how far out I hang my bullseye targets or how quickly I complete an action pistol COF. I still make mistakes, and some mistakes you only get to make once.

[Tripplethreat]

There goes Mr. Ayoob's perfect class safety record. A local deputy did the same thing here about a year ago with a G22,during SWAT team training. When you pull the trigger,even inadvertantly,it'll shoot.
It's easy to blame equipment.However,the weapon should always be checked with the holster while unloaded,especially with a Glock.

[Matt Payne]

Isn't she the lawyer representing someone on thehighroad.org that was legally open carrying his Glock in a Barnes and Noble bookstore who was jumped from behind by police while he was just browsing at the bookshelves?

Yeah, that's her. The guy is mvpel, above.