Forum Buzz...

Tex S · May 19, 2009, 08:31 PM

Seems like there has been a little buzz on the forum regarding the LFCD. I only load for one pistol caliber, and that is 45acp. I have always used a FCD since I began loading this caliber, so I have never tried any other form of crimping.

Several members here (who I respect as knowledgeable individuals) seem to think the FCD is not all it's cracked up to be (in terms of the post-sizing feature). I have heard that if the steps in your loading process are done properly, then there isn't really a purpose for the LFCD. It has also been said that using a FCD can actually be detrimental depending on the type and size of the components being used.

Well, I got to thinking, and I really don't have a worthy argument against these statements that would support the use of my LFCD.

Soooo... I have came to the conclusion that I want to try to load some ammo without the FCD just to see if these theories hold any water.

Problem is, I have just quit loading my pistol ammo on a SS Co-Ax and stepped up production with a Lee Classic Turret. It has a 4-hole turret designed to incorporate the use of a FCD. As far as I can tell, I have a few options when it comes to eliminating the FCD.

1) I can completely remove the FCD and set up my Lee seater die to crimp and seat in one action. I have never tried this, and I hope it will not be problematic since I use cast lead bullets (I am afraid of shaving the bullets). I also am not crazy about the idea of cycling the press through the last (now empty) station to get back to the resize/deprime die. The working of the lever on an empty station seems inefficient.

2) I can remove the FCD from station 4 and replace it with an additional seater die set up to crimp only (i.e. remove the seater plug). This would alleviate any concerns regarding bullet shaving, but is not exactly ideal because I would have to puchase another seater die.

3) I could purchase a 3-hole turret, but I am not sure if it would fit on my press.

What do yall think?

Sport45 · May 19, 2009, 08:39 PM

You could also back the FCD die out enough that it doesn't size, and adjust the crimper down enough to do its job.

I use the FCD on all my handgun rounds. The sizing ring is larger than the one in the sizing/depriming die so it usually doesn't do anything but crimp. At least that's been my experience.

TheotherMikeG · May 19, 2009, 11:11 PM

Sport45, I was under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that the fcd only sized. I've been loading without it for a while now, but shaving lead has been a real issue when I crimp/seat simultaneously. Could you please elaborate on how you've set your dies up?

Sevens · May 20, 2009, 08:11 AM

As one of the guys who doesn't have a handgun carbide FCD, I've gotta say: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! If you use the FCD and you are producing ammo that performs to your standards, is safe and accurate, you'd be nuts to try something different just because it's been getting discussed around here!

Sport45 · May 20, 2009, 08:18 AM

The handgun FCD is just a FL sizing die with an adjustable crimp ring. In my experience the sizing ring is larger than the one Lee puts in the FL/decap die that comes in the same set. So unless the bullet actually bulges the brass the FCD die doesn't do anything but crimp. It will iron out the bulges to ensure the cartridge will chamber. It doesn't ensure ultimate accuracy of previously bulged rounds.

If you want to only crimp a tapered round like a .45acp you could back the die out a bit so the carbide doesn't reach the base. You can't do this with a straight wall case like a .38 special.

F. Guffey · May 20, 2009, 09:29 AM

I use a RCBS carbide sizer to crimp 45 ACP cases that look like they swallowed a bullet for one pistol, it is new ammo or reloads that look like factory loads.

Lee Factory Crimp dies, I have a few, I do not use them, I have them just in case (JIC), if they are sizer and crimp dies I would say they are crimp dies with case support, the support prevents the case from squatting, bulging or wrinkling.

F. Guffey

45Marlin carbine · May 20, 2009, 10:04 AM

I use the LFCD for all load of my .45acp w/good results, just a light crimp on cast slugs.
use it on 9mm also w/good results.

CrustyFN · May 20, 2009, 10:59 AM

Quote:

As one of the guys who doesn't have a handgun carbide FCD, I've gotta say: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! If you use the FCD and you are producing ammo that performs to your standards, is safe and accurate, you'd be nuts to try something different just because it's been getting discussed around here!

I don't think it can be said any better than that. I happen to be one of the people that uses a FCD for every pistol caliber. It has worked great for me. I don't use it for the post sizing ring to fix my ammo I only use it as a crimp die, I like to seat and crimp in separate steps. I load lead bullets in 45 auto and 9mm and have never had a problem. Some people will say that it will ruin the ammo. I can see that if you are using over sized bullets and the post sizing ring is sizing the bullet. I don't use over sized bullets. I size my 45's at .452 and 9mm at .356 and don't have any problem with the post sizing ring. After saying that I do like to try different things just to experiment but don't change what's working for you just because a couple of people don't like it. I also load on a classic turret and cycle past an empty slot when loading rifle, not a big deal.

snuffy · May 20, 2009, 11:59 AM

Quote:

I also load on a classic turret and cycle past an empty slot when loading rifle, not a big deal.

Yeah 10-4 on that! Actually, if you stop the ram half way down after seating, take the round out of the shell holder, then grab the turret and turn it to the empty hole so it indexes. Then continue to lower the ram all the way down the turret will index to the next die. Make darn sure the ram is half way up before trying to index the turret! Otherwise the little black square pawl will be damaged.

Or as Rusty says, simply cycle the ram up until you hear a faint click, then lower it. It will cycle past the empty turret hole.

Alleykat · May 20, 2009, 12:23 PM

Bear in mind that many of the naysayers have never used a FCD, but are merely pontificating hypothetically.

I use the FCD for all my straightwall handgun reloading. Works for me. Why would you change processes from one that you know works well to one that MANY have found to be problematic, just based on the blather of a few internet pontificators?

BTW, I'd sure like to know how you'd back off the FCD so that it doesn't size, but only crimps. I don't think that's possible, as the sizing ring is at the very bottom of the die.

wncchester · May 20, 2009, 01:29 PM

Sport45: "In my experience the sizing ring is larger than the one Lee puts in the FL/decap die that comes in the same set. So unless the bullet actually bulges the brass the FCD die doesn't do anything but crimp. It will iron out the bulges to ensure the cartridge will chamber. It doesn't ensure ultimate accuracy of previously bulged rounds."

Right. And Alleykat has it right too.

Fact is, the FCD for handguns has NO effect on proper reloads. The post seating sizer ring is larger so it will not touch good loads, the die will only crimp normally. The advantage is that IF your loads ARE too large to chamber reliably, the die will deal with it immediately. Seems like a win-win tool to me and I LIKE it!

Why some think the FCD can or will damage any good reload escapes me.

F. Guffey · May 20, 2009, 01:57 PM

"Lee Factory Crimp dies, I have a few, I do not use them, I have them just in case (JIC), if they are sizer and crimp die I would say they are crimp dies with case support, the support prevents the case from squatting, bulging or wrinkling".

F. Guffey

CrustyFN · May 20, 2009, 02:12 PM

Quote:

BTW, I'd sure like to know how you'd back off the FCD so that it doesn't size, but only crimps. I don't think that's possible, as the sizing ring is at the very bottom of the die.

I agree, I don't think that's possible. I should clear up one of the comments in my post.

Quote:

I don't use it for the post sizing ring to fix my ammo I only use it as a crimp die,

What I meant by that is I make sure my dies are set up right and everything is to spec before it enters the FCD. I have loaded thousands of rounds and only felt the post sizing ring size two cases and they were both with jacketed bullets. If you have the FCD fixing most of your ammo you are reloading then you should stop and check your dies and go through the set up process again.
Rusty

F. Guffey · May 20, 2009, 03:31 PM

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plather

Sport45 · May 20, 2009, 08:42 PM

Quote:

BTW, I'd sure like to know how you'd back off the FCD so that it doesn't size, but only crimps. I don't think that's possible, as the sizing ring is at the very bottom of the die.

The same way you back of a rifle die to only neck size. The .45acp has a slight taper. I mentioned that this wouldn't work with a straight-wall case like the .38 special.

BigJakeJ1s · May 20, 2009, 09:48 PM

Any carbide sizing die for pistol cartridges sizes to a cylinder, not a taper, no matter whether the case has a taper or not. They all have only a small carbide ring at the base of the die, and the rest of the sizing die never touches the cartridge. A straight cylinder is within the tolerances for any straight wall pistol cartridge, whether it should be tapered or not.

The CFCD generally only sizes a case as the crimped, buckled case is pulled out of the die, and the carbide ring at the bottom of the die irons out the bulges and buckling.

Andy

AlaskaMike · May 21, 2009, 02:31 PM

Quote:

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plather

F. Guffey, what's your point?

May 19, 2009, 08:31 PM	#1
Tex S Senior Member Join Date: November 12, 2008 Location: Fort Worth, TEXAS Posts: 909	Forum Buzz... Seems like there has been a little buzz on the forum regarding the LFCD. I only load for one pistol caliber, and that is 45acp. I have always used a FCD since I began loading this caliber, so I have never tried any other form of crimping. Several members here (who I respect as knowledgeable individuals) seem to think the FCD is not all it's cracked up to be (in terms of the post-sizing feature). I have heard that if the steps in your loading process are done properly, then there isn't really a purpose for the LFCD. It has also been said that using a FCD can actually be detrimental depending on the type and size of the components being used. Well, I got to thinking, and I really don't have a worthy argument against these statements that would support the use of my LFCD. Soooo... I have came to the conclusion that I want to try to load some ammo without the FCD just to see if these theories hold any water. Problem is, I have just quit loading my pistol ammo on a SS Co-Ax and stepped up production with a Lee Classic Turret. It has a 4-hole turret designed to incorporate the use of a FCD. As far as I can tell, I have a few options when it comes to eliminating the FCD. 1) I can completely remove the FCD and set up my Lee seater die to crimp and seat in one action. I have never tried this, and I hope it will not be problematic since I use cast lead bullets (I am afraid of shaving the bullets). I also am not crazy about the idea of cycling the press through the last (now empty) station to get back to the resize/deprime die. The working of the lever on an empty station seems inefficient. 2) I can remove the FCD from station 4 and replace it with an additional seater die set up to crimp only (i.e. remove the seater plug). This would alleviate any concerns regarding bullet shaving, but is not exactly ideal because I would have to puchase another seater die. 3) I could purchase a 3-hole turret, but I am not sure if it would fit on my press. What do yall think?

May 19, 2009, 08:39 PM	#2
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	You could also back the FCD die out enough that it doesn't size, and adjust the crimper down enough to do its job. I use the FCD on all my handgun rounds. The sizing ring is larger than the one in the sizing/depriming die so it usually doesn't do anything but crimp. At least that's been my experience. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

May 19, 2009, 11:11 PM	#3
TheotherMikeG Member Join Date: December 17, 2005 Location: Homewood, AL Posts: 97	Sport45, I was under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that the fcd only sized. I've been loading without it for a while now, but shaving lead has been a real issue when I crimp/seat simultaneously. Could you please elaborate on how you've set your dies up? __________________ NRA GOA

May 20, 2009, 08:11 AM	#4
Sevens Senior Member Join Date: July 28, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 11,756	As one of the guys who doesn't have a handgun carbide FCD, I've gotta say: If it ain't broke, don't fix it! If you use the FCD and you are producing ammo that performs to your standards, is safe and accurate, you'd be nuts to try something different just because it's been getting discussed around here! __________________ *Attention Brass rats and other reloaders:* I really need .327 Federal Magnum brass, no lot size too small. Tell me what caliber you need and I'll see what I have to swap. PM me and we'll discuss.

May 20, 2009, 08:18 AM	#5
Sport45 Senior Member Join Date: May 25, 1999 Location: Too close to Houston Posts: 4,196	The handgun FCD is just a FL sizing die with an adjustable crimp ring. In my experience the sizing ring is larger than the one Lee puts in the FL/decap die that comes in the same set. So unless the bullet actually bulges the brass the FCD die doesn't do anything but crimp. It will iron out the bulges to ensure the cartridge will chamber. It doesn't ensure ultimate accuracy of previously bulged rounds. If you want to only crimp a tapered round like a .45acp you could back the die out a bit so the carbide doesn't reach the base. You can't do this with a straight wall case like a .38 special. __________________ Proud member of the NRA and Texas State Rifle Association. Registered and active voter.

May 20, 2009, 09:29 AM	#6
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	I use a RCBS carbide sizer to crimp 45 ACP cases that look like they swallowed a bullet for one pistol, it is new ammo or reloads that look like factory loads. Lee Factory Crimp dies, I have a few, I do not use them, I have them just in case (JIC), if they are sizer and crimp dies I would say they are crimp dies with case support, the support prevents the case from squatting, bulging or wrinkling. F. Guffey

May 20, 2009, 10:04 AM	#7
45Marlin carbine Junior member Join Date: January 26, 2007 Location: South-Western North Carolina Posts: 1,124	I use the LFCD for all load of my .45acp w/good results, just a light crimp on cast slugs. use it on 9mm also w/good results.

May 20, 2009, 12:23 PM	#10
Alleykat Junior member Join Date: July 26, 2007 Posts: 3,668	Bear in mind that many of the naysayers have never used a FCD, but are merely pontificating hypothetically. I use the FCD for all my straightwall handgun reloading. Works for me. Why would you change processes from one that you know works well to one that MANY have found to be problematic, just based on the blather of a few internet pontificators? BTW, I'd sure like to know how you'd back off the FCD so that it doesn't size, but only crimps. I don't think that's possible, as the sizing ring is at the very bottom of the die.

May 20, 2009, 01:29 PM	#11
wncchester Senior Member Join Date: December 1, 2002 Posts: 2,832	Sport45: "In my experience the sizing ring is larger than the one Lee puts in the FL/decap die that comes in the same set. So unless the bullet actually bulges the brass the FCD die doesn't do anything but crimp. It will iron out the bulges to ensure the cartridge will chamber. It doesn't ensure ultimate accuracy of previously bulged rounds." Right. And Alleykat has it right too. Fact is, the FCD for handguns has NO effect on proper reloads. The post seating sizer ring is larger so it will not touch good loads, the die will only crimp normally. The advantage is that IF your loads ARE too large to chamber reliably, the die will deal with it immediately. Seems like a win-win tool to me and I LIKE it! Why some think the FCD can or will damage any good reload escapes me.

May 20, 2009, 01:57 PM	#12
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	"Lee Factory Crimp dies, I have a few, I do not use them, I have them just in case (JIC), if they are sizer and crimp die I would say they are crimp dies with case support, the support prevents the case from squatting, bulging or wrinkling". F. Guffey

May 20, 2009, 03:31 PM	#14
F. Guffey Senior Member Join Date: July 18, 2008 Posts: 7,249	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=plather

May 20, 2009, 09:48 PM	#16
BigJakeJ1s Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2005 Location: Arlington TX Posts: 663	Any carbide sizing die for pistol cartridges sizes to a cylinder, not a taper, no matter whether the case has a taper or not. They all have only a small carbide ring at the base of the die, and the rest of the sizing die never touches the cartridge. A straight cylinder is within the tolerances for any straight wall pistol cartridge, whether it should be tapered or not. The CFCD generally only sizes a case as the crimped, buckled case is pulled out of the die, and the carbide ring at the bottom of the die irons out the bulges and buckling. Andy