Laser sight on rifle

tangolima · February 4, 2024, 05:09 PM

Seeing people shoot their pistols with laser sight will cause me seasickness. They shoot lousy. I have never warmed up to it.

Recently I got hold of a no-name light / laser combo. For the heck of it I tried it on my AR. Oh ma ma. I can fast hip fire 10 shots into a 1 inch group at 50yd. Long gun is steadier than handgun. No motion sickness. It is a keeper.

The primary goal of a laser to to let the target know exactly where it will hurt next if he does anything stupid, so that no shot needs to fire. I am going to mount one on our home defence shotgun.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

Recycled bullet · February 4, 2024, 06:38 PM

The laser is a fantastic training aid for shooting handguns. When you can see the dot jumping around like crazy all excuses become moot points. The truth is there on the target, for all to see.

bamaranger · February 4, 2024, 08:09 PM

Three laser comments:

We put Crimson Trace grips on a dozen and a half or so duty SIGs back in the day. Optional, did you want one......? I passed, but another a couple of guys in the district opted for them. At the range, the results amazed me, it was entirely possible to wack popper targets at 50 yds , from the hip, with good center hits, all at fair speed, and in poor light to boot. But they were not durable. In about 18 months, I don't think any of them were still on duty, they'd all puked out in some fashion or another. That was likely 15 yrs ago, maybe the units have been beefed up to stand service use these days. I could see the use of such an accessory on a nightstand gun, or by the inexperienced (or the experienced) in fast, up close shooting in bad light. Finding the dot in the daylight was a challenge, especially much past 30 ft or so. Too, nobody was absolutely rock solid, the dot danced for everyone, you had to accept the "arc of movement" just as with irons.

I see a lot of lasers on gang banger guns and trash videos on line.

If you want convinced on how effective a laser is on a long gun, look no further than the various YouTube videos of hog shooters at night. Firing at running hogs, from a bouncing ATV or pickup bed, shooters slay hogs by the score. The hogs seeing the source of the laser doesn't matter, if they can see it at all. Hogs don't shoot back. Ammo expenditure is not an issue, 5-6 rds per hog, who cares? The truck is full of the stuff. Sign me up.

rickyrick · February 4, 2024, 08:18 PM

I have an ND3 subzero green laser light that I used for coyotes for a while. It’s more of an illumination device than I sighting device. It was actually fairly practical and could technically be used as an aiming device at close range if focused down. Not as fine as a dot, but 1” circle within self defense range.
I quit using for hunt illumination because despite its name, it would fade in cold weather… when lots of coyote hunting happens.

bamaranger · February 4, 2024, 09:44 PM

I investigated those ND3 devices a few years back, interested in them for the same reason. My memory was they indeed were guilty of fading in cold, but there was an enhanced version later that was better about it.

As stated, basically a night vision device, working in conjunction with a standard 'scope sight, (or a dot I suppose). Never did more than read about it.

jmr40 · February 4, 2024, 10:08 PM

I don't know the details, but US special forces use a type or laser that is only visible to them with their night vision goggles.

It's been a while since I read the book "No Easy Day" written by one of the team members on the Bin Laden raid. He describes it in the book. Good book BTW if you get a chance to read it.

FrankenMauser · February 5, 2024, 10:48 AM

Infrared. (IR)
Special teams that require coordination at a rendezvous point also use a lot of "IR" glowsticks. I don't think they actually give off much IR light. Rather, they're just very, very dim to the naked eye, and you're not going to see them from a distance.
Helicopter operations also use a lot of IR strobes, beacons, and spotlights for various things.
And many, many more applications.
Lots and lots of IR in the military.

(Never hold the strobe if a helicopter is coming in to land. Put it on the ground and get out of the way. Otherwise, they're going to chase you and try to land on top of you.

Yes, I saw it happen more than once.

)

Double Naught Spy · February 5, 2024, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Special teams that require coordination at a rendezvous point also use a lot of "IR" glowsticks. I don't think they actually give off much IR light. Rather, they're just very, very dim to the naked eye, and you're not going to see them from a distance.

What you are seeing is the near IR glow, sort of like with an 850 nm IR light that has a faint dull glow, but no shone light projected, but IR light is being projected. The glowsticks are producing IR light.

**44 AMP** · February 5, 2024, 01:10 PM

Quote:

The primary goal of a laser to to let the target know exactly where it will hurt next if he does anything stupid, so that no shot needs to fire.

No, its not. It can be an added benefit when using a visible laser targeting device (movies love the visual) but its not the primary purpose of the laser.

tangolima · February 5, 2024, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

No, its not. It can be an added benefit when using a visible laser targeting device (movies love the visual) but its not the primary purpose of the laser.

Laser sights came about in the 80s. I saw the original advertisement stated as such. It makes sense to me.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

tangolima · February 5, 2024, 02:14 PM

Invisible IR marker / strobe may have lost its stealth advantage. Nowadays anyone can have a IR night vision camera / monocular for as little as $50.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

MarkCO · February 5, 2024, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangolima

Recently I got hold of a no-name light / laser combo. For the heck of it I tried it on my AR. Oh ma ma. I can fast hip fire 10 shots into a 1 inch group at 50yd. Long gun is steadier than handgun. No motion sickness. It is a keeper.

The primary goal of a laser to to let the target know exactly where it will hurt next if he does anything stupid, so that no shot needs to fire. I am going to mount one on our home defence shotgun.

I don't know if I posted on it here, or somewhere else, but for many years, I was anti WMLs and Lasers. Then I got invited to the Crimson Trace Midnight Invitational and went all three years it ran. One of the perks was that shooters were given a light and a laser when they signed up. I learned a lot, and I shot other night matches since. I have several firearms set up with WMLs, Lasers, combos, IRs, etc. now.

I have one of the previously mentioned ND3 (I have the cold weather version) and I have used it with great success. I also have a Bushnell Nigh Watchman monocular mounted on an AR with an IR laser. It's basically a cheap NV set up. At the time, cost me less than $400 and it's good to about 200 yards. My 3Gun Rifle set up for Stealth has a laser and it has definitely improved my score on several stages. With an AR, chicken wing mounted with full vision, there really is nothing faster. We went through a bunch of scenarios with a SWAT team practice and after a few runs, no one could beat their laser sighted AR times with anything else. Target ID being a thing, there are plus and minus aspects to WMLs and Lasers, but they are fast. My HD shotgun has a combo WML/Laser that works wonderfully.

Optics have their place, RDS, Thermals, Lasers, WMLs. My personal pause is that aiming devices/gadgets don't buy skill or training and added complexity is, for most people, going to spell trouble in the SD realm. For hunting (where legal of course) some of those aids help immensely.

tangolima · February 5, 2024, 03:30 PM

IR monocular+IR laser sight eh? Sounds like a great idea for my PCP air rifle for ratting. Thanks.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

MarkCO · February 5, 2024, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tangolima

IR monocular+IR laser sight eh? Sounds like a great idea for my PCP air rifle for ratting. Thanks.

Totally, and cheap. You will need to get a Monocular that has a hole for a mount in the base, then a picatinny rail mount with a slot for the thumbscrew.

The Monocular has nothing to so with the "zeroing" it is merely giving you the ability to see the IR dot. It took me a while, and getting the RO to turn off the lights at the indoor range to get it sighted in, but once past that hurdle, it's been awesome.

https://www.amazon.com/Metal-Picatin...s%2C131&sr=8-4

I don't know much about air gun recoil except that it can mess up optics. But on my DI AR, my little Bushnell monocular has about 2K rounds fired with no issues.

tangolima · February 5, 2024, 11:58 PM

Springer airgun is the one that damages optics. PCP and multi-pump is fine.

Unlike center fired rifle, Airgun has very limited point blank range, no more than 50yd. This is the limit of this setup. Guess it is enough for shooting rats in the dark. Very interesting.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

**JohnKSa** · February 6, 2024, 02:29 AM

Correct. The gas spring and metal spring-piston airguns have an odd recoil that operates in two directions. First backwards when the piston drives forward to compress the air and then an abrupt bump forwards at the end of piston travel. In scopes that aren't braced properly to handle recoil in both directions, that can be a problem.

Airguns shooting conventional pellets have limited range due to the very poor BC of conventional pellets. The more powerful pneumatic airguns can shoot projectiles that are much more "bullet-like" than a typical pellet and that can stretch the range significantly beyond what is traditionally thought of as airgun limits. They operate more in the realm of what might be expected of black powder firearms.

MarkCO · February 6, 2024, 09:59 AM

Thanks guys for the air gun info. I still have a Red Ryder, two Crossmans and a few CO2 pistols. I've been contemplating getting a PCP, but the cost and ignorance are barriers. Looking at maybe getting a 25 cal PCP as the club I belong to is big into Airgun and they have a fancy 4K psi compressor for members to use.

Ricklin · February 6, 2024, 10:39 AM

As mentioned IR gets heavy use in the military. I recall seeing pics of a rather rare M1 carbine developed with an IR spotlight and an IR scope. It also had a large ammo can size battery pack. Odd looking thing, that is certain.

tangolima · February 6, 2024, 10:46 AM

I have an airacuda max in .25cal. Quite affordable and shoots well. I can shoot 1.5moa at 100yd. It becomes mostly worthless beyond 125yd with diabolo pellets I have tried. Slugs may do better but I heard it is touchy and requires a lot of try and error.

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

**44 AMP** · February 6, 2024, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Laser sights came about in the 80s. I saw the original advertisement stated as such. It makes sense to me.

I've seen those ads, too. Back then, laser sights were about the size of a carton of cigarettes, were mounted under rifle barrels, and at least one model was marketed with prison guards in mind.
The idea being that the visible dot would also be a deterrent, and I'm sure it was.

However, prison inmates know they are under observation, and knew the guards had laser sights, so were aware of the dot and its meaning. A laser sight's primary function is as a sighting device. A secondary function as a deterrent only works when the subject knows its there.

Just FYI, the "long slide .45 with laser sight" in the original Terminator movie was, at the time, movie magic. Laser sights did exist, but at that time, they weren't small enough to mount on a pistol. A decade later, that had changed.

rickyrick · February 6, 2024, 05:20 PM

I remember in the early 90’s, I bought a laser pointer on impulse for a considerable amount of money. It was pretty much a novelty item and used hard to find AAAA batteries, not a typo, quadruple A.
Now they are sub-5$ and still fun for cat owners.

**JohnKSa** · February 6, 2024, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Back then, laser sights were about the size of a carton of cigarettes, were mounted under rifle barrels...

The first one I saw in the late 1980s was about 8"x3"x1" with a separate battery pack attached by a short cord. I don't remember the price but I remember thinking it was ridiculously expensive. Obviously only suitable for use with rifles. As I recall, it did not use a solid state laser source.

Using laser diodes made them more practical, especially as their performance increased and their cost came down. From about 1985 to 2000, the cost per watt for laser diodes dropped by a factor of 100 and then from 2000 to about 2011, it dropped again by a factor of 100.

rickyrick · February 7, 2024, 08:35 AM

Y’all remember the size of the old MILES gear? I’m not sure how big the current versions are anymore but the old stuff was pretty big.
I know there’s more stuff in there than just a laser and it must’ve been a challenge back then to engineer that to fit on a rifle barrel.

MarkCO · February 7, 2024, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rickyrick

Y’all remember the size of the old MILES gear? I’m not sure how big the current versions are anymore but the old stuff was pretty big.

Yep, it was pretty interesting to me when I first used it. The system for the last several decades...

https://www.liberatedmanuals.com/TM-9-1265-211-10.pdf

The new system rolling out...

https://www.nationaldefensemagazine....ldier-training

tangolima · February 7, 2024, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnKSa

Correct. The gas spring and metal spring-piston airguns have an odd recoil that operates in two directions. First backwards when the piston drives forward to compress the air and then an abrupt bump forwards at the end of piston travel. In scopes that aren't braced properly to handle recoil in both directions, that can be a problem.

Airguns shooting conventional pellets have limited range due to the very poor BC of conventional pellets. The more powerful pneumatic airguns can shoot projectiles that are much more "bullet-like" than a typical pellet and that can stretch the range significantly beyond what is traditionally thought of as airgun limits. They operate more in the realm of what might be expected of black powder firearms.

There really isn't much of backwards recoil unless shooting heavy big bore slugs. It is the forward recoil caused by the piston mass that does the scope in, usually in the form of reticle detachment. Even that may not be a problem with newer etched reticles.

I haven't tinker with airgun slugs yet. Generally it requires different barrel (they call it liner) that probably have rifling profile different from pellet. The latest kind of slug is the hybrid slug that is designed to fire in pellet barrels. But they are expensive (close to 20 cents a round).

-TL

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

February 4, 2024, 05:09 PM	#1
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,838	Laser sight on rifle Seeing people shoot their pistols with laser sight will cause me seasickness. They shoot lousy. I have never warmed up to it. Recently I got hold of a no-name light / laser combo. For the heck of it I tried it on my AR. Oh ma ma. I can fast hip fire 10 shots into a 1 inch group at 50yd. Long gun is steadier than handgun. No motion sickness. It is a keeper. The primary goal of a laser to to let the target know exactly where it will hurt next if he does anything stupid, so that no shot needs to fire. I am going to mount one on our home defence shotgun. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

February 4, 2024, 08:09 PM	#3
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,318	lasers Three laser comments: We put Crimson Trace grips on a dozen and a half or so duty SIGs back in the day. Optional, did you want one......? I passed, but another a couple of guys in the district opted for them. At the range, the results amazed me, it was entirely possible to wack popper targets at 50 yds , from the hip, with good center hits, all at fair speed, and in poor light to boot. But they were not durable. In about 18 months, I don't think any of them were still on duty, they'd all puked out in some fashion or another. That was likely 15 yrs ago, maybe the units have been beefed up to stand service use these days. I could see the use of such an accessory on a nightstand gun, or by the inexperienced (or the experienced) in fast, up close shooting in bad light. Finding the dot in the daylight was a challenge, especially much past 30 ft or so. Too, nobody was absolutely rock solid, the dot danced for everyone, you had to accept the "arc of movement" just as with irons. I see a lot of lasers on gang banger guns and trash videos on line. If you want convinced on how effective a laser is on a long gun, look no further than the various YouTube videos of hog shooters at night. Firing at running hogs, from a bouncing ATV or pickup bed, shooters slay hogs by the score. The hogs seeing the source of the laser doesn't matter, if they can see it at all. Hogs don't shoot back. Ammo expenditure is not an issue, 5-6 rds per hog, who cares? The truck is full of the stuff. Sign me up.

February 4, 2024, 08:18 PM	#4
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	I have an ND3 subzero green laser light that I used for coyotes for a while. It’s more of an illumination device than I sighting device. It was actually fairly practical and could technically be used as an aiming device at close range if focused down. Not as fine as a dot, but 1” circle within self defense range. I quit using for hunt illumination because despite its name, it would fade in cold weather… when lots of coyote hunting happens. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

February 4, 2024, 09:44 PM	#5
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,318	coyotes I investigated those ND3 devices a few years back, interested in them for the same reason. My memory was they indeed were guilty of fading in cold, but there was an enhanced version later that was better about it. As stated, basically a night vision device, working in conjunction with a standard 'scope sight, (or a dot I suppose). Never did more than read about it.

February 4, 2024, 10:08 PM	#6
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,811	I don't know the details, but US special forces use a type or laser that is only visible to them with their night vision goggles. It's been a while since I read the book "No Easy Day" written by one of the team members on the Bin Laden raid. He describes it in the book. Good book BTW if you get a chance to read it. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

February 4, 2024, 06:38 PM	#2
Recycled bullet Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2022 Posts: 342	The laser is a fantastic training aid for shooting handguns. When you can see the dot jumping around like crazy all excuses become moot points. The truth is there on the target, for all to see.

February 5, 2024, 10:48 AM	#7
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 25, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,427	Infrared. (IR) Special teams that require coordination at a rendezvous point also use a lot of "IR" glowsticks. I don't think they actually give off much IR light. Rather, they're just very, very dim to the naked eye, and you're not going to see them from a distance. Helicopter operations also use a lot of IR strobes, beacons, and spotlights for various things. And many, many more applications. Lots and lots of IR in the military. (Never hold the strobe if a helicopter is coming in to land. Put it on the ground and get out of the way. Otherwise, they're going to chase you and try to land on top of you. Yes, I saw it happen more than once.) __________________ Don't even try it. It's even worse than the internet would lead you to believe.

February 5, 2024, 02:14 PM	#11
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,838	Invisible IR marker / strobe may have lost its stealth advantage. Nowadays anyone can have a IR night vision camera / monocular for as little as $50. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

February 5, 2024, 03:30 PM	#13
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,838	IR monocular+IR laser sight eh? Sounds like a great idea for my PCP air rifle for ratting. Thanks. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

February 5, 2024, 11:58 PM	#15
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,838	Springer airgun is the one that damages optics. PCP and multi-pump is fine. Unlike center fired rifle, Airgun has very limited point blank range, no more than 50yd. This is the limit of this setup. Guess it is enough for shooting rats in the dark. Very interesting. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

February 6, 2024, 02:29 AM	#16
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 25,005	Correct. The gas spring and metal spring-piston airguns have an odd recoil that operates in two directions. First backwards when the piston drives forward to compress the air and then an abrupt bump forwards at the end of piston travel. In scopes that aren't braced properly to handle recoil in both directions, that can be a problem. Airguns shooting conventional pellets have limited range due to the very poor BC of conventional pellets. The more powerful pneumatic airguns can shoot projectiles that are much more "bullet-like" than a typical pellet and that can stretch the range significantly beyond what is traditionally thought of as airgun limits. They operate more in the realm of what might be expected of black powder firearms. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

February 6, 2024, 09:59 AM	#17
MarkCO Senior Member Join Date: October 21, 1998 Location: Colorado, USA Posts: 4,309	Thanks guys for the air gun info. I still have a Red Ryder, two Crossmans and a few CO2 pistols. I've been contemplating getting a PCP, but the cost and ignorance are barriers. Looking at maybe getting a 25 cal PCP as the club I belong to is big into Airgun and they have a fancy 4K psi compressor for members to use. __________________ Good Shooting, MarkCO www.CarbonArms.us

February 6, 2024, 10:39 AM	#18
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,018	Korea? As mentioned IR gets heavy use in the military. I recall seeing pics of a rather rare M1 carbine developed with an IR spotlight and an IR scope. It also had a large ammo can size battery pack. Odd looking thing, that is certain. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free

February 6, 2024, 10:46 AM	#19
tangolima Senior Member Join Date: September 28, 2013 Posts: 3,838	I have an airacuda max in .25cal. Quite affordable and shoots well. I can shoot 1.5moa at 100yd. It becomes mostly worthless beyond 125yd with diabolo pellets I have tried. Slugs may do better but I heard it is touchy and requires a lot of try and error. -TL Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

February 6, 2024, 05:20 PM	#21
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	I remember in the early 90’s, I bought a laser pointer on impulse for a considerable amount of money. It was pretty much a novelty item and used hard to find AAAA batteries, not a typo, quadruple A. Now they are sub-5$ and still fun for cat owners. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!!

February 7, 2024, 08:35 AM	#23
rickyrick Senior Member Join Date: March 15, 2010 Posts: 8,238	Y’all remember the size of the old MILES gear? I’m not sure how big the current versions are anymore but the old stuff was pretty big. I know there’s more stuff in there than just a laser and it must’ve been a challenge back then to engineer that to fit on a rifle barrel. __________________ Woohoo, I’m back In Texas!!! Last edited by rickyrick; February 7, 2024 at 08:46 AM.