Bad Decision!

[catnphx]

Personally, I liked how he used the other employee as concealment to pull his weapon but it was very very close to the kid. I would have liked for him to move more to his right, if possible, but that is Monday morning quarterbacking. I won't play the IF game but things turned out well and I'm glad a BG was put down.

[TylerD45ACP]

I rather the kid be 100yds away behind steel barriers but like you said its the armchair quarterbacking. I would have also liked a couple more steps to the right but cant pick and choose in SD unfortunatley.

[Brit]

Remember it is all time and motion, the instant you swing your pistol up to engage the criminal, he is now going to perceive the threat to him.

So stepping past the actual place were he can be engaged, IE, line of sight, he (the Night Manager) is actually endangering the people in the middle of this fight,putting them in more danger, so to speak.

[Alaska444]

He was spot on in a very professional manner, down to business and on target. How many shooters actually HIT their target in a gun battle and he nailed him three times. The guy has hands of steel and never passed the barrel in the direction of anyone but the bad guy and then he stood guard and did not pursue the creep. Moving and shooting is a very difficult skill to learn and execute and would have slowed his response time on top of that.

If anything, the mom with the kid should already have anticipated trouble and started to slowly move away from the bad guy in the first place. Would you just stand next to a creep with a gun talking to the clerks demanding money? Victims of crime should be required BEFORE the crime to learn how to protect themselves and their little kids. Not sure why she was sticking like glue to the bad guy in the first place, that is not how I would have reacted especially leaving the kid up at counter height.

Just my two cents worth.

[sacooley]

I viewed this several times. Great Job. Wyoming just went to every person can Carry. I think there will be less crime in Wyoming.

[praetorian97]

Saw in an earlier post where they stated the BG was running away insinuating the clerk should have stopped shooting.

Just because someone is running away doesnt mean your life is no longer in danger. A BG on the run can still shoot while retreating as well as be taking up a defensive position.

[manta49]

Just Wondering why the clerk was doing a dance when he went over to the door.

[TylerD45ACP]

Thats the "Adrenaline Shuffle", lol. I guess it was his way of burning off that massive dump of adrenaline he was still feeling. Actually getting into a gunfight must have you so jacked up It must take a while to feel calm. Can anyone comment on this who has ever been in a SD shoot? How long did it take to calm yourself, if anyone who has doesn't mind sharing?

[Aguila Blanca]

Isn't there any other legal concerns?. I mean, it looks like the clerk shoots three times, but shoots when the bad guy is already on the run, or at least it so looks to me...

The robber still had a gun and was still in the room. He still had the means and the opportunity -- in other words, he was still an active threat.

Notice that the clerk (or manager) did NOT do what that pharmacist did who was recently convicted of murder, and pump a few more after-the-fact rounds into the robber after he was down.

Just Wondering why the clerk was doing a dance when he went over to the door.

He was in a Weaver stance, with his weak side foot in front, and he was doing a stutter step to maintain the Weaver stance while he advanced and pulled back. Notice that his feet never cross each other, and he's never off-balance or out of a good firing position.

[Doublea A]

Issue 1: The woman with her baby was not very smart at all. Once the bad guy came in demanding $$$$$ she should have removed herself and the baby out of the area. Instead she was standing there knowing that a robbery was standing place.

Issue 2: Even after the shoot-out the woman was still standing there until the clerk asked her to come and seek cover. unbelievable!!! What if the bad guy had started firing indiscriminately into the establishment.

As far as the shooting goes thank God the bullet hit where it was intended to hit but the shots were close to the idiotic woman and the innocent child.

[Evan Thomas]

Originally Posted by Doublea A

The woman with her baby was not very smart at all. Once the bad guy came in demanding $$$$$ she should have removed herself and the baby out of the area. Instead she was standing there knowing that a robbery was standing place.

She was probably standing there in shock and disbelief.

I fail to see the point of attacking the woman with the baby as "not very smart," "idiotic," etc. A couple of thoughts: first, in the sequence shown on the video, it takes, what, two or three seconds from the time the suspect appears until the woman starts to move, which she does when the clerk's gun comes out and he starts shooting. Also, we don't know what was said: if a man with a gun comes up to the average person and says something like "Nobody move! Give me the money!" I think the average, untrained, unarmed person will comply. And most of the time (not all, but most), this would be an OK choice: the robber is after money, and will leave when he has what he wants. (Note, however, what I said in a previous post: given that woman was within easy grabbing range of the suspect, I do think the clerk was right to draw and shoot.)

Even with training, people often freeze in an emergency; it's not reasonable to expect an untrained person to react instantly and correctly in such situations. Calling such people idiots is a particularly unattractive form of armchair quarterbacking.

[mellow_c]

That was close. I've seen this vid a few times. It's a good vid. The way I see it is that he was involved in the idea and practice of carry. He was quick to draw, he had a good load and firearm, he was very aware and involved.

I can say this. It was appropriate for a confident civilian (as close as you wana get). Don't forget.... The trained professionals are happy to cut even more corners....................

[Double Naught Spy]

The woman with her baby was not very smart at all. Once the bad guy came in demanding $$$$$ she should have removed herself and the baby out of the area. Instead she was standing there knowing that a robbery was standing place.

Funny how the victims get accused here, but the bad guy robber is the only one getting shot. First the OP says the clerk is wrong for his self defense act. Now the mother isn't very smart. Sheesh.

[Alaska444]

I don't see anything different he could have done. After all the other guy already had the draw on him so stepping further would have been lethal to the defender. It is true, we don't know what the bad guy said, but I would hope that I would have the presence of mind to slowly move away from the BG is I was holding my kid in that position. There is already one gun placed ready for action. Self defense goes beyond responding with deadly force, and since this entire thread is Monday morning quarterbacking, why not talk about everyone's actions.

Isn't that the entire purpose of discussing each situation presented for review. Well, review away so we can all learn, not sure why folks gets so emotionally attached to one view or another. Since most of us do carry, this is a worthwhile exercise that helps with our own mental preparation. If you don't consider scenarios and alternative actions, you WON'T react with alternative reactions once the situation begins. The time to dissect these events is here and now.

I would hope folks continue to openly dissect each case and leave the emotions at home. I suspect we all understand being frozen by shock, but what if that is your wife and child in the same situation, you need to teach them to have the presence of mind to MOVE AWAY and have that engrained in their minds. I see nothing wrong therefore to dissect away each and every aspect of this shooting.

[Evan Thomas]

Originally Posted by Alaska444

...since this entire thread is Monday morning quarterbacking, why not talk about everyone's actions.
<snip>
I see nothing wrong therefore to dissect away each and every aspect of this shooting.

I entirely agree. But it isn't useful to call someone an idiot for not doing what we (who were not there) think she should have done -- it only detracts from the discussion. As Double Naught Spy correctly points out, it's a form of blaming the victim, and folks here should know better than to do that.

[manta49]

He was in a Weaver stance, with his weak side foot in front, and he was doing a stutter step to maintain the Weaver stance while he advanced and pulled back. Notice that his feet never cross each other, and he's never off-balance or out of a good firing position.

Could you not walk normally and not be off balance people do it every day. Then again it might start a new dance craze the weaver dance.

[TylerD45ACP]

It could, we should get it out there as a Training Technique. The Weaver Dance-- After a SD shoot are you stressed out to the max? Yes. Do you need a way to calm yourself while keeping an eye on the downed suspect. YES! Well try The Weaver Dance for $5.99 we will send you a CD on how to keep your weaver stance and dance off that adrenaline.

[manta49]

You might have something there.

[TylerD45ACP]

LoL, lets start to put it together and market it .

[manta49]

Yes I could look after the UK end of the business. The weaver stance is something I have been trying at the range but I haven't tried the dance yet. Might try it on Saturday to see what reaction i get.

[TylerD45ACP]

LOL... O man I would love to see their faces if you really did that. Especially if you explained it as a Tactically Sound method... lol, hypothetically of course.

[football32]

The robber was obviously willing to shoot somebody and the clerk reacted quickly and effectively and likely saved his life as well as everyone else that was in the room. I read somewhere on this thread about no follow through on his last shot?lol are you serious?! hes not shooting paper targets at the local range. hes exchanging fire with a live target that is shooting back. im sorry... but as much as everybody likes to think they are the next harry callahan... they arent. this guy could not have performed any better. end of story

[Gossettc68]

Good job. The mother moves instantly when the clerk brings his gun up. Good reflexes...she didnt freeze. I think he took a calculated risk rather than surrendered to tunnel vision...he hit the guy all three times on the move and he was moving laterally to the right to take the mother/child out of the line of fire. Good work sir. I'm sorry you have to live with that now, but heeluva good job and great shooting.

[Brit]

I wonder was it a Days Inn?

They will add some neons.

Make my DAYS INN

[warrior poet]

Lots of us have talked about "... what I would have liked..." or "... IF..." but frankly, that is not the point. Real life situations are NOT perfect, and this clerk did a downright amazing job in a tight spot. Questioning his tactics should be personal for yourself: "AM I GOOD ENOUGH TO DO THIS?" should be our mantra. To the clerk, "Thank you for your defense of self and others," is all I want to say.